Drudge Dreadnought Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 I've decided that for my fluffy side project army i want to use something other than oblits since i use them all the time normally. Since the main focus of the project is to run units that i think are cool even if they arn't particularly good i've been considering predators. I love the look of them and would get a kick out of making a couple of them. But just because i want to use predators doesn't mean i don't want them to be in the best possible configuration! So, currently the heavy support for my list is 3 obliterators. I want to swap that for 2 predators. But what to put on them? Since the oblits are my only real source of range firepower i'm going to need lascannons somewhere. I've considered 1 dakka and 1 tri-las, but thats all my lascannons in 1 basket. So now i'm thinking las turrets and heavy bolter sponsons on each so that i can move and shoot armor or sit still and shoot infantry. Unless i go tri-las i'll use havoc launchers since they are a great deal for their price. I know pred config is a fairly common question, but what i notice in most of the threads about it is that its all theory since nobody actually runs the damn things. So while i welcome opinion and theory, is there anybody who actually uses non-dakka preds who can comment? Secondly, i'm debating if i want to use EA or DP. When i run a dakka pred as support i don't bother with either. But if these are going to be the main source of my anti tank i need to be sure they are firing or atleast moving a lot. DP definetly hurts my heavy bolters, but if i were to use Twin-Linked lascannons the minus to BS wouldn't be a huge hit and it would be worth it to be able to keep firing. So, opinions or experiences with these options? Regardless of what else i do they are probably going to get Dirge Casters since its a Slaaneshi army (expensive i know! ) :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168484-if-you-were-to-use-a-predator/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Ah the coincidence. Thought about this myself about a week ago too. But after all I decided to stay a powergamer so no preds. However I do got some opinions on them and I did use them! As a marine player that is, but as its kinda the same pred: Dakka pred, hmm always a bit dissapointing if you see it actually in action. Without havoc launcher it kills about 3 orks per turn in cover, so a bit meh. Havoc launcher on it for maybe another one. So for a tank which should be meta against horde I'm not really a fan of it. Lasscanon turret + heavy bolters, meh dont like hybrid choices. You are a lot of times just wasting shots. With Deamnic possesion it just becomes even more expensive! While lowering in BS too. If somebody wants to take this thing out, its going to happen and DP wont help against that hehe. So I say no to this one too. No sponsons is not an option, then you would be paying too much for the one turret weapon. We also got the autocanon + lasscanon pred. Its getting a bit better here. Not horrible expensive (135 w/ dirgecaster) and the autocanon is usefull against most targets. But I think I still like the all lascanon pred the most. Its kinda of a weak overall choice too, but if it like you said for fluff and when its replacing Oblits, well this is your tank. If you take at least 2 and couple them with other threats like Deamon Princes and Berzerkers in rhinos storming forwards, well you got a chance they can fire for at least a turn of 2. If you try to quickly take out counter fire and threats to your preds, well maybe they even shoot for a bit longer. And lets be honest these tanks do pack some tremendous firepower, no doubt here. But usually I'm afraid it gets downed pretty quick agianst Droppoded things and outflanking shizzle and such things. But if you want one, I would go with 2 of these. Sometimes they are really great and sometimes they really suck. So for competative play thats a no, but for other then competative go ahead. Hope this helps a bit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168484-if-you-were-to-use-a-predator/#findComment-1987477 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuNCHBiZZLe Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 all las is my sugestion as IMO autocannons arent worth it and hybrid preds seem like a waste at one point or another. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168484-if-you-were-to-use-a-predator/#findComment-1987481 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted May 14, 2009 Author Share Posted May 14, 2009 Well there is a pretty strong argument for las+hb preds not being proper hybrids. Sure if you didn't move and shot the las and HBs at armor it'd be a waste, but on average the tl las kills the same amount of infantry as the AC. So as long as you take advantage of being able to move 6 and shoot your turret then you arn't really wasting shots. Preds really need some help though. For both loyalist and Chaos they are impotent considering it only takes 1 glancing hit to silence them. They were a viable options in 4th when you could move and shoot the HBs. They should just have a special rule that allows them to treat str 5 weapons as defensive still. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168484-if-you-were-to-use-a-predator/#findComment-1987491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 dakka pred and only if I needed horde meta didnt play nurgle DP with rot and both my hvy support slots were either 2x2 oblits or 2 LR in a rush army. otherwise preds make no sense. [what of course means they dont make much sense most of the time]. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168484-if-you-were-to-use-a-predator/#findComment-1987529 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted May 14, 2009 Author Share Posted May 14, 2009 dakka pred and only if I needed horde meta didnt play nurgle DP with rot and both my hvy support slots were either 2x2 oblits or 2 LR in a rush army. otherwise preds make no sense. [what of course means they dont make much sense most of the time]. This was addressed in the OP jeske ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168484-if-you-were-to-use-a-predator/#findComment-1987538 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 have you mathhammered the dakka pred Jeske? because I cannot see how this unit is meta against horde. double flamer squads are so much better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168484-if-you-were-to-use-a-predator/#findComment-1987540 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 its cheap and considering everyone plays 2xlash there is no such thing as orks or nids getting cover+ they can LoS block oblits etc. they are ideal , I wouldnt even call them good , but when someone plays lets say 1850 or 2k pts and doesnt have the models for a good army then I can imagine someone using them . there are units in the chaos dex I cant see used in any dex or any set up played at any points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168484-if-you-were-to-use-a-predator/#findComment-1987675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 I used to only like dakka preds . But a couple of people awhile ago made a good case for TLLC turret and HB sponsons. You really only lose 1 shot off the dakka but it gives you that TL LC for tank hunting (at a price of course). Some say that means that the HB shots are wasted but when you use a csm squad with 2 meltas to shoot a LR all those bolter shoots are wasted and nobody seems to mind that. But either option is easy since the sponsons don't change and you can just take the turret on and off depending on what you want to use. IMO tri-LC is just too expensive for something that can be taken out with 1 shot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168484-if-you-were-to-use-a-predator/#findComment-1987793 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 have you mathhammered the dakka pred Jeske? because I cannot see how this unit is meta against horde. double flamer squads are so much better. You're kinda assuming that what the dakka pred will be shooting at will always be in cover, if you use that assumption all HS choices look worse. Also dakka pred is not only good vs hoard but also good at stunning/destroying rino/RB's, taking my opponents mobility away is a very important part of my game plan. Compairing to 2 flamer csm squad is really not a good comparison, the flamer unit has to be w/in inches, the dakka pred can start killing them from across the board, also you are compairing a 225 pt unit (assuming asp champ w/PW (your not going to make a flamer unit w/out one) and rino to get them there) to a 100 pts tank. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168484-if-you-were-to-use-a-predator/#findComment-1987806 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Stalker Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Dakka pred have 7 shoots and twin-blast. Sounds like a pretty decent anti-infantry. If it would cost less, who knows ... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168484-if-you-were-to-use-a-predator/#findComment-1987825 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirrelKing Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 You're kinda assuming that what the dakka pred will be shooting at will always be in cover, if you use that assumption all HS choices look worse. Also dakka pred is not only good vs hoard but also good at stunning/destroying rino/RB's, taking my opponents mobility away is a very important part of my game plan. Compairing to 2 flamer csm squad is really not a good comparison, the flamer unit has to be w/in inches, the dakka pred can start killing them from across the board, also you are compairing a 225 pt unit (assuming asp champ w/PW (your not going to make a flamer unit w/out one) and rino to get them there) to a 100 pts tank. :thanks: Great point, I have to agree: with speed/maneuvarability being so key, taking it away (potentially anyways) with such a cheap option is great. But I am new to 5th ed., are light vehicules still being used? (apart from rhinos of course) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168484-if-you-were-to-use-a-predator/#findComment-1987868 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 C'mon the autocanon has only a little chance to indeed to something against transports, you are not buying the damn thing for that. Its too expensive too use it for that, but it does show its kinda weak for anti infantry duties. Do some of you serious think its a competative choice? I would even rather have Defilers... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168484-if-you-were-to-use-a-predator/#findComment-1987919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirrelKing Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 I can think of plenty of light vehicules: dark eldar vehicules, ork vehicules, skimmers, not sure about eldar or Tau though... I was just wondering if these things were common enough to justify a dakka pred in that role. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168484-if-you-were-to-use-a-predator/#findComment-1987936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 C'mon the autocanon has only a little chance to indeed to something against transports, you are not buying the damn thing for that. Its too expensive too use it for that, but it does show its kinda weak for anti infantry duties. Do some of you serious think its a competative choice? I would even rather have Defilers... ?? AC defeats rino armor on 4+ and you have 2 shots and HB's on 6 and you have 6 shots (I'm considering glance & pen. the same b/c of smk, hull down etc). I've stopped lots of rinos/RB's with dakka pred, don't know if you've ever tried it, or are just assuming it won't work ? You seem to be missing the point of the OT, you keep bring up oblits, defilers, even csm squads as being better choices. The title of the topic is "if you wre to use a predator...". The guy wants suggestions on how to build a pred if he wants to use them, so saying, oblits, defilers, csm w/ 2 flamers, are better is irrelevant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168484-if-you-were-to-use-a-predator/#findComment-1987938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 if you read my first post, you should have seen I already said what I think are the best options. It is not irrevelant to compare with other units to see which variant is the best. I'm not talking about which units. At least that the goal, if it looks like I'm saying just take this or that, sorry for that, did not mean it in that way. Glancing while vehicles have smoke often too makes it not too effective. Glancing 1-3 is only shaken en 5 is a weapon destroyed. So to keep if from moving you need another 1/3 chance. That coupled with the needing 6's and smoke makes me say that the heavy bolters are a bit off wasted. Same thing as shooting with 10 bolters at a Prince w/ mark of nurgle. It has the math against it. Autocanon is of course a bit better like I said, but by no means impressive. If we look at our loyalist brothers: they got a dread for 125 points which shoots 2x twinlinked autocanons. That's a reliable transport damager and even that one is seen as a bad choice... I did play with the dakka pred in my loyalist days and played against it often too, so I do know what it can and what not. If still in doubt: mathammer it, always assume the vehicle is in cover. If the mathammer is still positive, then its good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168484-if-you-were-to-use-a-predator/#findComment-1987977 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Important Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 I have used a pred with lascannons only sometimes. I like that actualy it draws alot of fire from rhinos in my experience if you are facing an army who have tanks / skimmers etc they don't want to get blown up. Three lascannons shots with one reroll on hit usualy does some sort of damage. The flaw is when the enemy have alot of anti tank and manage to deal with it and my rhinos. I usualy rhino rush my army I like the idea. But it usualy stay okay the whole battle aslong no melta or loads of kraks / meltas get to it. But it doesn't compete with oblitirators by a long shot. It's just cool to have. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168484-if-you-were-to-use-a-predator/#findComment-1988089 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corpse. Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 It sort of relies on the list with any new addition to a stable army. But assuming you build the rest of the army around the heavy supports lacking. Dakkapredator: 115 AC, 2HB, 1 Havoc -Move and shoot not too good. Laspredator: 165 2 LC, 1 TLLC -Move and shoot TLLC Lasdakka Predator: 150 2 HB, 1 TLLC, 1 Havoc -Moves and shoots like the above predator, only loses part of a shot (considering reroll) at +35 pts. Rangepredator: 145 2 LC, 1 AC, 1 Havoc -Every gun has 48" range, easier to put in a safe spot and has something for all infantry. (LC for TEQ, TL-Blast for horde, AC for instant killing some heavy weapons teams/swarms with the LC's) -Doesnt move and shoot too well, but has a lascannon for it similar to Lasdakka. Dakkapredators can spit so many wounds on small squads that they may lose special models on a bad armor/cover save. Rangepredators make it easier not to rely on heavy bolters 36". Odd predator variants, if you like comparisons. TLLC Predator: 105 pts Just a TLLC -Moves and shoots every turn, costs 30 pts more then an obliterator, can cover models, doesnt die to instant death, and can be immune to many weapons, with a high sitting turret weapon to shoot over hils for obscurity. Odd Predator: 85 AC and Havoc 48" range, the 60 pts you spend on two lascannons can nearly buy you another obliterator if you want to spread points around. Same idea as the TLLC predator for hills and obscurity. Take your pick, you know your army better then we do. I prefer pure dakkapredators, because my troops get close with meltas, or just krak things/smash with powerfists with a greater daemon or prince (or meltabombs if I feel like it). Since troops get down and dirty, I like having assurance I wont face so many genestealers when my troops arrive to ruin the lines. Harlequins, banshees, etc.. To cover a field of expertise that oblits cant do so well in, anti -instant death and lots of shots vs a well spread out/cover save hindering opponent. I run 1 laspredator with 2 oblits from time to time, because oblits like having something to peek around and shoot, from a tank that has a similar role that they do. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168484-if-you-were-to-use-a-predator/#findComment-1988698 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted May 15, 2009 Author Share Posted May 15, 2009 Currently the list i'm thinking of using them in would look like this. Preds are just in that config since its expensive and anything short of tri las is cheaper. Certain things like the amount of guys in each squad and placement of sonic blasters could be moved around. HQ - 310 160 - Daemon Prince: Wings, Warptime, Mark of Slaanesh 150 - Sorcerer: Wings, Lash of Submission, Mark of Slaanesh, Melta Bombs Troops - 840 240 - Noise Marines x8: Champion, Power Weapon, Doom Siren, Rhino 240 - Noise Marines x8: Champion, Power Weapon, Doom Siren, Rhino 180 - Noise Marines x6: Blastmaster, Sonic Blaster x4 180 - Noise Marines x6: Blastmaster, Sonic Blaster x4 Heavy Support - 350 175 - Predator: Twin-Linked Lascannon, Heavy Bolters, Daemonic Possession, Havoc Launcher, Dirge Caster 175 - Predator: Twin-Linked Lascannon, Heavy Bolters, Daemonic Possession, Havoc Launcher, Dirge Caster Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168484-if-you-were-to-use-a-predator/#findComment-1988706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corpse. Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Looks good actually. I was about to edit, but I'll just say it here. Oblit vs TLLC predator, 30 points more. A TLLC is 1.33 lascannons math-hammer wise when shooting. so for 2/5ths of a obliterators worth you get .33 out of a TLLC. Next time you want more then 1 obliterator, but dont have the points for two oblits, this is a middle-way option. Was also going to mention an experimental variant, AC+Combi-Melta (or combiflamer), rush forward with rhinos and be a bully with it ramming and shooting the AC+Combi melta/plasma into the sides of tanks. Or flame something that you dont want to assault, rhino can do it better so I think the combi plas/melta variant may do better. But for that cost, perhaps best just getting a vindicator for a short range tank. The list looks promising. Actually looks like something I would prefer using at some time. (Im very picky and you made each unit to specs that I really like). With all those psyker battle squads popping up everywhere, fearless intitiative 5 noise marines are now more tempting to use. (Though your two champs with power weapons may like a meltabomb at least on one guy, if you got spare room for it) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168484-if-you-were-to-use-a-predator/#findComment-1988709 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted May 15, 2009 Author Share Posted May 15, 2009 Yeah, its currently exactly 1500 or i would get some melta bombs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168484-if-you-were-to-use-a-predator/#findComment-1988712 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 175 - Predator: Twin-Linked Lascannon, Heavy Bolters, Daemonic Possession, Havoc Launcher, Dirge Caster175 - Predator: Twin-Linked Lascannon, Heavy Bolters, Daemonic Possession, Havoc Launcher, Dirge Caster overloaded with gear and costing tons of pts that should be put in to NM . possesion is ok for stuff like vindicators or when you really really have problems with anti LR meta . with preds you get 2 shots from lascanons at bs 3 and one shot at bs 4 [bs3 twink linked] ... thats when you stay static . if you go for the hvy bolter spons [only why would you in a NMarmy that should already be runing tons of mulit shot assault weapons ?] its even worse 6 shots at bs 3 mean half of those miss and then 2 wound ... not even one dead Meq per turn . and again all that only if you dont move [since 5th change the defensive weapons rule]. now as someone who plays a NM army . your list lacks anti tank and anti LR/IG meta it has 0 good meta choices against eldar/tau [and lets face it NM arent better against meq then PM/Zerker builds]. if some kind of a pred should be run in this its a las one . what ofc course sucks and makes no sense as oblits will be cheaper and unlike preds will give you a fighing chance against tau/eldar and will work better with lash . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168484-if-you-were-to-use-a-predator/#findComment-1988741 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted May 15, 2009 Author Share Posted May 15, 2009 Would you share your NM list Jeske? My list that has oblits as heavy support is this: HQ - 305 160 - Daemon Prince: Wings, Warptime, Mark of Slaanesh 145 - Sorcerer: Wings, Lash of Submission, Mark of Slaanesh Elites - 263 263 - Possessed x8: Icon of Slaanesh, Rhino Troops - 705 265 - Noise Marines x8: Champion, Power Weapon, Doom Siren, Sonic Blaster x5, Rhino 265 - Noise Marines x8: Champion, Power Weapon, Doom Siren, Sonic Blaster x5, Rhino 175 - Noise Marines x5: Blastmaster, Rhino Heavy Support - 225 225 - Obliterator x3 It has done very well so far and has been lots of fun to play, but i've mostly faced Meqs and people who don't know how to deal with the doom sirens. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168484-if-you-were-to-use-a-predator/#findComment-1988779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corpse. Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Its late, I didnt see the possessions. Possession on a predator is more for dirge caster (and extra armor does that better). The only reason to take possession IMO, and thats on a dirt cheap predator. The negative 1 ballistic skill is not quite worth it. If we had heavy flamer side sponsons as an option, then it would be golden. Though its more of a vindicator upgrade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168484-if-you-were-to-use-a-predator/#findComment-1988841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 am sure people posted lists like my before . I play with 2 lash DPs , 3 units of NM 3x8 with sonics naked +2 rhinos for LoS blocking 1x5 naked no rhino with blast master , 6 oblits in 3x2 . I dont like NM armies that try to go hth , they are really sub par compering to hth builds out of zerkers or pms/zerkers . they mostlly base on the fact that people dont know how NM armies are build and what gear they can take . I see giving a unit both sonics and a syren as a waste of tps , because you either want to stay at range and shot[and then syren champ gets wasted ] or you want to get in to hth as soon as possible then then sonics are a wasted option. as your list goes , if your are doing great then dont change it . :edit: slanesh possessed in a rhino :huh: why ? you get more or less the same kill ratio from a NM squad only that will be scoring and doesnt have to end up in hth always. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168484-if-you-were-to-use-a-predator/#findComment-1988868 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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