Charging Berzerkers from Rhinos

[Pack-Lieutenant Rakt]

Hello,

I'm pretty new to playing 40k, (having only played a couple of games way back in 2nd edition), so please forgive me if this is a daft question, but what is the best way to get a unit of Berzerkers from a Rhino into hand to hand combat?

You obviously want to get the first charge for your Furious Charge bonus, but from reading the rule book the only way you can disembark from a Rhino and charge in the same round is if it hasn't moved yet. So the way I see it is you throw your Rhino up the board to within charging range, leave it for your opponent to shoot the bejesus out of or counter charge in his turn, and if your Rhino isn't scrap then jump your men out and charge on your next go.

Is there no better way than this?

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Land Raiders.

[mes]

That is essentially it, I'm afraid. recall that if the rhino is popped in assault, you'll still be able to charge with the berzerkers the next turn. if it's popped by shooting, they could get charged. the only way to move and charge is to pay ~6 times more and get a land raider.

[chillin]

As you said you can park your rino and hope for best or you can park rino and exit on back side using rino as shield (still can't charge that turn) or I know some people get their brzrkrs out of rino the turn before they think they will be in charge range and footslog them behind rino next turn. Any of those requires, good distance jugement on your part, your opponent to be in a bad situtation, and a bit of luck. I've pulled off assaults from rinos a few times but usually against relatitively inexperienced players. If I take brzrkrs I give them LR, rinos are for csm's and PM's.

[Citizen Snips]

If you want the guaranteed assault, the land raider is your choice. However, keep in mind that the points you are paying for a raider will buy you a full 10 squad of another zerkers with a power weapon. So do you want one for sure squad to get in, or two squads with a decent chance?

[Zhukov]

I could swear this topic should be about berzerkers in rhinos and not berzerkers charging out of a land raider...

 

I have used 1x 8 man berzerker squad in a rhino in 90% of my games. If that would not be a viable option, with all due respect, I would not have used it that long... Really there is nothing wrong with it.

 

The key is it is just one of the targets, having princes and Plagues in rhinos to accompagny them really helps.

 

I love 'em

[chillin]

I have used 1x 8 man berzerker squad in a rhino in 90% of my games. ... Really there is nothing wrong with it.

 

So how do you get the charge in with them ? You didn't say, just said that you do it. Is it one of the 3 way's I gave in my post, or is there another way (can't think of what that might be though) ?

[Zhukov]

No its not another way, just park the rhino in, or sometimes jump out if I jump with all my plagues out too and prince support is near or something like that. It depends, one of those 3 ways.

[Ju'kosian]

I usually run 2 bezerkers squads of 8 men in rhino's. combined with 2 PM squads in rhino's and oblits..

I also have a DP with lash, so I can 'adjust' the enemy to be in Charge range.

 

NOrmally I ride up with the rhino's, park, pop smoke, pray to the dark gods that the zerkers survive the shooting..

turn after, disembark, footslog and assault..

[Lord Humongous]

That's pretty much what I do also. It works pretty well. Even when it doesn't, berserkers can take a charge from most units and still win, especially if they call in some help from a fast moving unit (DP with wings, raptors) or summoned daemons. Sometimes I do disembark after driving up, so that I can make a run move (and get in cover). 12" driving + 2.9" disembark push + d6" run can put you in good position for a charge the next turn. If it gets you within 12" of the enemy, he's got a threat he needs to deal with ASAP.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Yep, Four Squad Rhino rush, pop smoke, pretend to hope like hell while you wait (having a horde of zerkers takes away the care factor), disembark and start the killy love. I don't avocate stupidityin position and timing but in the case of zerkers more #s = more love.

Use cover, block lines of sight with the lead Rhinos etc and avoid plasma weapons, fear is a great controller of the opponent give him too much to deal with all in one turn.

 

L3e

[MojoJojo]

I've only played w/ csm's for about a dozen games so far, so here's my 2 cents.. I normally run 2 10 man squads of 'zerks, each in a rhino. Against the only gun line army I've faced so far (Tau) I rushed, popped smoke and prayed. He popped both rhino's, troops spilled out and I'd lose about 1/2 of the zerks. No morale check, thank you very much. Then they go to work, and against Tau I had 1 zerk charge 10 tau, kill 3, they lose, run and kill the rest in the sweeping adv. Against the loyalists and daemons I drove 6", hopped out and shot. Had mixed results since pistols are only 12" range.

 

Not to hijack your thread (yeah, it's a hijack attempt) but has anyone used power weapons on your Skull champs instead of the love glove? I've had a lot better success with it since he's str5/I5 on the charge... I'm not missing it in CC against high AV targets due to taking melta bombs and 2x plasma pistols in the squad...

[Corpse.]

Uhm, check out the tactics in the transport related parts of the General Tactics in my signature, but here is a quick rundown for an assault oriented rhino.

 

When deploying, face the rear of the rhino to the closest side table edge, with the side of the rhino perfectly snug against your deployment line. Preferably with cover, or if you deploy second then try to obscure the rhino with another batch of models if possible, preferably a tank.

 

If you get first turn, and first to deploy, you must pivot the rhino (finger on the middle of the tank, and that finger doesnt move at all when you twist the tank around) Pivoting doesnt count as moving. So you gained some "free" distance.

 

Move the rhino 12" forward. Twist it 45 degrees (that means face its front left or front right corner at the enemy target).

 

Then use smoke. (unless you got a lash sorcerer inside, you may want to lash instead).

 

In the following turn he will do one of three things.

 

1: Shoot it up, immobilise/pop it. (Immobilising is ok).

If he still has a TON of shooting left to do, deploy the berzerkers hiding behind the rhino, with the most important models standing where most of his guns cant "see" them. This means when you take casualties, you remove models in his line of sight, to prevent further shooting. (Takes practice and a keen eye of what he may do next). If he has tons of indirect ordnance that can ruin this, your better off deploying the unit surrounding the whole vehicle when the tank dies. That way he gets less hits, its a hard call to make sometimes especially against imperial guard.

 

2: He will ignore it, and move out of assault range (2" disembark, 6" move, 6" assault, disembarking is more like 2.75" because its like coherency, leaving 15" just out of reach from the disembark hatch). In that case you wont get the pleasure of smoke launchers. In this case you move forward 12" in your next turn and show your side armor at the target, trying not to expose your rear to the enemy, and if possible having one side of the vehicle facing most of his firepower (this may mean just facing the tank at the targets instead) where you get the most cover when the rhino dies. Again refer to option1 when the rhino dies in terms of taking firepower.

 

3: He will advance some sort of heavy hitting unit near them, or block with a vehicle, or advance with some sort of big monster/dread to try and hinder you. Even go as far as moving several fast vehicles to cover several angles. (which is rare). In this case, you will be pressed for decisions, so consider being stalled for a turn if possible, to get rid of menacing targets. Notibly, two chimeras/dark eldar raiders are used as such for cheap tricks. Even land speeders do such things from time to time. For the case of big assaulters, the main reason for you to get a powerfist option is to deal with this, and for a melee unit being out-fought in melee is a bad investment so you need a powerfist in most zerk units.

 

Enjoy.

 

(By the way, option 2's distance, you end up 1.35" with the first turn's pivot, +12" from move and a slight bonus for pivot which nearly brings it to 13.50" from where they started, then with deploying on 2nd turn its 2.75"+6" move with troops and 6" assaul for a grand total of 26.25", a second turn assault against an opponent thats unprepared/inexperienced)

 

Keep on a choppin'.

[Pack-Lieutenant Rakt]

Thanks for the advice folks! I'd like to keep my land raider for the lightning claw terminators I'm putting together, so I look forward to putting all this into action soon.

[the jeske]

lightning claw terminators

dont do it to yourself or at least dont glue it use magnets, you are going to be very disappointed how chaos terminators work in hth.

[chillin]

has anyone used power weapons on your Skull champs instead of the love glove? I've had a lot better success with it since he's str5/I5 on the charge...

 

I always give my skull champ a PW instead of PF. I , like you, just can't see giving up 5 str.5/int.5 PW attacks. My csm squads have PF champs & meltaguns, I have oblits and whatever else to kill tanks and dreads etc. My brzrkrs are for troop, even character killing, they are not for fighting dreads and MC etc.

[Corpse.]

I never seem to get my zerks into hth with anything but tanks and big stuff. (Too many mech/dread/walker players around here). So powerfists are the way I run my champs. Str9 hits arent that bad, as long as there are ablative wounds for the champ to survive.

[Zhukov]

I cant just see giving up 4 WS5 S9 attacks, but more importantly I cant see to give up 3 WS5 S8 attacks if you not got the charge, or after first round of combat...

[chillin]

Like I said I use my zerkrs to slaughter units, str 8/9 is not needed I'd rather keep the int. up. Like I said I have csm champs w PF.

Just a different game plan for them. I'm not trying to convience you to use a PW and you certainly are not going to convience me to use a PF <_<

The guy ask if anyone else used a PW on skull champ instead of a PF and I said I did, that's all.

[Zhukov]

Just a different game plan for them. I'm not trying to convience you to use a PW and you certainly are not going to convience me to use a PF

 

Haha I was just giving my opinion too, not trying to convince you. We should think positive of each others meanings more often! Thats often a problem in real life too, people sometimes think other people are being offensive, while they just have the best intentions. Bleegh sounding a bit gay (no offensve to gay people!) ^_^

[travh20]

IT is all fun and games until you get stuck in a CC with a Wraithlord witha bunch of STR 4 guys and can do nothing about it. I have to go with PF for my Zerks. It is almost like having 2 PF in the squad with the WS 5 and 3 attacks of the Skull Champ.

[DevianID]

If you get first turn, and first to deploy, you must pivot the rhino (finger on the middle of the tank, and that finger doesnt move at all when you twist the tank around) Pivoting doesnt count as moving. So you gained some "free" distance.

Actually, be very wary of this... pivoting DOES count as moving, however you can pivot and still shoot all your weapons. Also, if you pivot, and then move, and your hull has moved more than 12 inches, then you have moved too far.

By the way, option 2's distance, you end up 1.35" with the first turn's pivot, +12" from move and a slight bonus for pivot which nearly brings it to 13.50" from where they started

So basicly, by doing this, you move the hull of the vehicle more than the vehicle's hull is legally allowed to move... doing this WILL get you in trouble.

 

That said, perhaps you ment that you simply drive your rhino sideways? Thats not actually any bonus distance, but if an access point is facing the enemy then when you disembark you wont have to clear the front of your rhino. Thus, with a 12 inch deployment, and a 12 inch rhino movement on turn 1, you have cleared 24 inches of the board. On turn 2, you disembark ~2.5 inches forward, move 6, and assault 6, meaning (barring difficult terrain) by turn 2 you can clear 38.5 inches from your board edge to contact the enemy.

 

Also, sitting in your rhino that has popped smoke isnt all that bad really. It takes an awefully large number of shots to kill a rhino in 5th edition--13 marines with lascannons can expect to kill ONE rhino! Take 2 berzerker units and your up to 26 lascannons to expect kill both--and then after all that what is really left to shoot at the embarked squads?

[the jeske]

So basicly, by doing this, you move the hull of the vehicle more than the vehicle's hull is legally allowed to move... doing this WILL get you in trouble.

not when your fast. the good old "ok , so it stood here , see I even moved less then 12"." Fast hand let you get very far in w40k . even more then in WFB.

[Corpse.]

Quoted pg 57:

"Vehicles can turn any number of times during its move, just like any other model. Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about the center-point, rather then 'wheeling' round. Turning does not reduce a vehicles move."

 

Some may argue the next sentance after that means they cant move more then their max distance from where it started. In no way does it mention pivoting, it just says "Forward and reverse movement doesnt exceed its maximum movement rate" which does not include pivoting, just like in 4th and 3rd edition. This age old ability has seen use in 3rd edition tourniments nearly a decade ago and has not changed since.

 

(Pivot) move 5" (pivot) move 2" (pivot) move 5", stop. (front right corner ended up 1" further from where its front right corner started from originally). See how difficult it is to move around terrain and keep things simple? They just ignored it since 3rd edition. You cant simply bend around the measuring tape around a corner and then pick up the vehicle and place it around that corner, you have to "hover it" (or drag it if you dont care about the underside of the model or the table) along the number of inches it is required to move.

 

If its done any other way, your facing an opponent that either doesnt know or doesnt care, or perhaps low on time and wants to get the game over with asap.

[Joshta]

Lots of great information on this page.