Advice on taking down Eldar?

[Retalitus]

Hey fellow followers of Chaos! I've got a game next week against an Eldar opponent, and am hoping to get some advice in putting together a competitive army list, as well as some tips on how to best deal with those pesky xenos...Thanks to the advice given to me on the army list board, I put together a strong list against a Space Marine army this week (played by a more experienced player), and (to my surprise!) got a draw... was very close too - came down to a single Loyalist marine making a crucial armour save on the final turn to contest an objective... still, I think I gave my little gaming group a shock, in that I've finally started fielding sensible armies!

 

My list in my previous game was basically this - 2 DPs (both with wings, one with lash, the other nurgle/warptime), x6 oblits (in squads of 2, one of which I got on the board through deepstriking - successfully taking out a Land Raider Redeemer!), and x3 full troop squads. Troops were armed with flamer/melta, and champ with powerfist. All in Rhinos. 2 squads were CSMs, 1 squad PMs.

 

I'll admit my knowledge of the Eldar isn't great. I generally play in multiplayer games (vs Ultramarines, Tau and Eldar - the latter played by my upcoming opponent), and this is going to be the first time I'll be one-on-one against them. My opponent is a great deal more experienced in 40k than myself, so he'll be playing 1500 points vs my 1600 force... means I've gotta make those extra 100 points count! He saw the success I had with the DPs and the Oblits, so he'll be expecting me to field a very similar force in our game. I'm pretty sure he'll be expecting me to go with two winged lash DPs, and to try and deepstrike my oblits again. I've got a Land Raider, which I've used in previous games, and which has been regularly taken out by this guy's bright lances... I also know he's fond of using Jet Bikes - he pretty much wiped out a Tau army this week, barely losing a unit himself.

 

So, over to you guys... what kinda force should I be putting together? Any nasty anti-Chaos stuff I should be planning for, and how best do I counter it? Cheers in advance folks!

[chillin]

Definately don't use LR, like you say lances count them as armor 12. Eldar have lot of ap.3 weops and also elite units that are int5 with PW's, so they can kill alot of csm's. So my answer to this is to take lotsa csm's and avoid too much costly stuff. Flamers are good but you already have those in your list. HB havocs are good vs some eldar builds but not as good vs others. Use smk and terrain to get those rinos in there and get into hth with them asap.

good luck, hope this helps.

[Corpse.]

To be helpful and since you got time to think this over I'll rundown the units (from memory) that you will expect to face.

 

Units that terminators hate (not tanks)

-Wraithguard at 12". You want to make sure to tie them up in assault before getting close with anything spendy, these things kill anything. (They can be troops at 10 models strong, if you can snipe their warlock do so!)

-Fire Dragons, these guys arent that much more spendy then a marine and they come with meltaguns, they're elites though and expect them to be transported.

-Banshees, these girls are power weapons, the only models they hate fighting are toughness 5 things and dreadnoughts, they dont come fully prepared for that, and they strike first even charging into cover so be weary of them in transports.

-Harlequins, these guys arent TOO powerful, they hate being hit with a lot of attacks, so a full assault squad will destroy 10 harlequins if you get the chance with such a unit.

-Shining spears, perhaps one of the least used eldar units but none the less deadly, they arent used because they cost too much and die too easy but they are very anti marine/terminator (think of them as a 3+ model HQ unit like honor guard).

 

Anti Marine units

-Dark Reapers, these guys are a pain but come in small units, almost costing a terminator each. These guys die first if at all possible, they can kill their worth with the right combos (guide psychic power) and can harass light vehicles easily at 48" range.

-Warwalkers, these things can kit out very well for a variety but their favorite usually is brightlance/starcannon weapons, great anti marine/terminator, they suck in assault though if you cant shoot them up(treat them like charging sentinels to avoid being shot up tying them in melee)

 

Melee units to watch out for (besides the ones mentioned above).

-Wraithlord, these guys are typiclly dreadnoughts, but a little worse in some ways because you need str5+ to hurt it, and it has marine saves. Krak missiles or better, even meltas/plasma and lascannon(powerfists hidden in units work here too, preferably in half your units in case he runs them forward).

-Avatar, yeah this guy is like fighting one of the greater daemons in the daemon codex, naturally that means he can take on other monstrous creatures. Melta weapons dont hurt him (special rule he has), so plasma, AP3 kraks and so on are best if lots of firepower wont do the trick.

-Striking Scorpions, in a larger unit they fight like space marines (str4, Initiative 5) and can pack a powerfist character, so be careful there.

 

 

(See a theme here? Heavy bolters and krak missiles are very dominant vs eldar, especially their transports that turn your str9-10 weapons into str8 - Wave Serpents)

 

Plasma Cannons are ok, if you want to bypass heavy bolters. Dont pack too many models that die to instant death, like obliterators. If you see brightlances, kill them! Otherwise you risk losing your oblits very fast.

 

Basic shooters that can be annoying:

-Rangers(Pathfinders even worse), these guys are snipers with higher BS, and get cover save bonuses, shoot lots of small fire at them or just assault. Flamers work best if you deep strike though.

-Dire Avengers can be very shooty at 18", normally transported, using a special skill with their "sergeant" (well called an exarch but for memories sake call it a sarg). They can fire 1 extra shot per model and cant fire the next shooting phase (real good for getting out of a transport, shoot 3 shots, then get back in next to to go somewhere else).

-Large guardian squads. Dont under-estimate them, they shoot pretty hard when they get close and being able to have 2 guardians with basiclly 12" storm bolters per one marine you own can get nasty if he gets a good volley off. They die like guardsmen in 5+ cover (they almost always take that warlock power conceal, which gives them 5+ cover in the open, same for wraithguard)

 

Their tanks arent too bad. If you see a fire prism, thats an odnance that allows you armor saves, if you see two KILL ONE because they bolster eachother's shot, and can ignore your armor saves if they do. They also spit anti tank and antoi obliterator sub-shot (sort of like tau) thats high strength and AP that can cause problems. They die easier then wave serpents but if he doesnt move them, then he wont die by a simple immobilised result. (Costs about the same as a predator)

 

Their other tank however, has been an issue in some ways for a while, dumbed down a bit in 5th edition. I forget its name, it has a small transport capacity so expect power hitting units inside them if you see one. It should be fairly easy to spot, with a long gun on the right side of its turret. If you see one getting close, hunk together and dont let him separate your units with a tank shock and narrow assault.

 

His HQ's (Besides avatar)

Autarch, basiclly if you see a fusion gun on him, kill him he'll cause you trouble. He can pack some nice melee on them, but normally they work best inside units or solo on a bike going in behind his other tfast vehicles.

 

The Farseers(edited, its late lol) can snipe models inside units, so wipe him off the table if you see him using it. Otherwise if it stays back, he's using it to support his troops.

 

Shooty fast attack (none of their FA is melee, which is a relief).

-Swooping Hawks, these guys come with haywire grenades (just think of them as messy krak grenades) and basilly negative 1 strength storm bolters. When they deep strike they poop a weak ordnance blast, but with an autarch (that gives a bonus to reserves rolls) and an ability to jump in, and jump out in the same turn to re-deep strike the next turn they can kill their cost by being annoying AND incapable to touch them. If you can manage, cover objectives real good and spread the units if these guys show up and you beat much of his force down already.

-Warp Spiders, these guys are nasty. He can take hit and run rule with them, so tying them in melee isnt a good idea unless you slap him with power weapons. (3+ save). Not advisable to let them get close. They have 12" range weapons but they are like tau with 2D6 re-jump during assault phase. (This is where the idea of tau jet packs came from rules-wise, and is a superior version of that rule).

-Vypers, basiclly they can be armed to the teeth for a price, but die as easily as warwalkers with shooting, just shoot them down if you get the chance, and they are perhaps the easiest to kill with anti tank guns because they are hard to hide for obscurity, so he will be moving them a lot to get that obscurity rule.

 

Lets see what did I miss.. Hm..

Eldar jetbikes, basicly guardians on bikes with the jet pack rule added to their rules with a 3+ armor save.

 

Saves, when you shoot at them.

Jetbikes 3+

Warp Spiders 3+

Dark Reapers (I think) are 3+

Striking Scorpions 3+

Wraithguard and Wraithlord are 3+

Shining spears 3+

Dire Avengers 4+

Banshees 4+

Fire Dragons 4+

 

The rest I think are 5+ regular, or 4+ invulnerable or 5+ cover saves. Some powers allow them rerolls on armor saves, rerolls on shooting attacks (or is it wounding? I forget) and some offensive powers mostly flame template and weak large blast templates.

 

Krak missiles give them hell, lascannons mostly benefit killing wraithlords, fire prisms and that other heavy support tank I forgot the name to.

 

All toughness 8, 6 or 3. So you only need str6 for instant death on what can be instantly killed.

 

With all that in mind, try to kill his troops - because they can be JUST as painful as his specialists if you let them beat on you fo too long.

[Important]

I used to play Eldar before and can say that's a good guide to what eldar player usualy do. In my experience defilers are a pain in the ass if not shot down fast. Eldar lists with alot of melee units don't want to get close if a defiler is present and it can lay down okay firing gainst them. It will usualy be the nr1 thing for them to blow up.

[Brother Nihm]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=165294

[Retalitus]

Thank you guys, I'm gonna have to sit down this evening and have a good read through that overview of the Eldar units - it'll be very helpful indeed, much appreciated Corpse. Will also be sure to to look through the info on the post you linked Nihm. Thanks. Sorry if this post is going over old ground, but I'm really hoping to kick some xeno butt next week!

 

My opponent chops and changes his army list every week, so it's really tough for me to know what he's going to bring to the table. Whatever he does have, he's going to know exactly how to use it, so I'm going to have a very difficult game on my hands. Should be fun though! I'm pretty sure he's going to bring with him something to specifically counter lash DPs and deepstriking Oblits.

 

I'm going to have a crack at putting a list together, which I'll post here for your comments. I'm in agreement that a lone Land Raider is going to be too much of a risk with bright lances on the board, but I'm thinking of maybe running with a Dreadnought and Pred for the first time in ages. Pretty sure he'll not be expecting that! Any advice on must-take units would be good - will certainly take Chillin's advice and load up on plenty of troops. I was thinking maybe going for Bezerkers or PMs more this time - still undecided... these are some tough decisions!!!

[Razhbad]

As an Eldar player i find what i lack the most is fighting against numbers and the toughness of my opponents. So really you need a swarm Nurgle Army.

[Retalitus]

OK, here it is... had a quick look through the Eldar info tonight, and I've put together a very rough initial list (pretty uninspired, but it's been a hard day at work!)... wanted to get something up on the board this evening, as I may not be online the next couple of days.

 

HQ:

Daemon Prince - Wings; Mark of Nurgle

150 pts

 

HQ:

Daemon Prince - Wings; Mark of Nurgle

150 pts

 

Troops:

9 Chaos Space Marines - Flamer (x1); Meltagun (x1); Mark of Nurgle

1 Aspiring Champion - Power Fist; Combi-melta

1 Rhino

300 points

 

Troops:

9 Chaos Space Marines - Flamer (x1); Meltagun (x1); Mark of Nurgle

1 Aspiring Champion - Power Fist; Combi-melta

1 Rhino

300 points

 

Troops:

9 Chaos Space Marines - Flamer (x1); Meltagun (x1); Mark of Nurgle

1 Aspiring Champion - Power Fist; Melta Bombs

1 Rhino

295 points

 

Elite:

Terminators x 3 - Combi-melta (x3)

105 points

 

Heavy Support:

Obliterators x2

150 points

 

Heavy Support:

Obliterators x2

150 points

 

Total Cost: 1600 points

 

Took Razhbad's advice on boosting the toughness via Nurgle, and still had points left for the Oblits and a termicide squad. Despite my earlier post about putting a Pred or Dread into my army, I really couldn't justify taking away the Oblits... had so much fun playing them in my last game! Am intending to keep both squads on the board from the start, and using the termicide squad for the very first time in a game... Was hoping to get some missile launchers in there somewhere, but couldn't think where...

 

So guys, please let me know if you think this is going to be effective against Eldar, and maybe give me pointers for improving it if necessary. Should I maybe go for smaller squads of PMs, rather than CSMs with MoN? Really appreciate all your advice folks, was absolutely crucial in me having my most successful game to-date this past week! :)

[Corpse.]

CSM's hard press their anti tank and hard hitters to go after them. Powerfists and all that melta action will cause them plenty of headaches. Might want to leave one oblit squad in the back to tempt them to do what eldar do - zip in to kill. When actually they cost no more then a predator, and they would have to send 250+ pts of models to try and take them out.

 

Termicide their transports if you can.

 

Though, you wont use the flamer more then once when you may use the meltaguns more, make the champs combi-weapon a combi-flamer and give the flamer gun a meltagun instead. (costs more, but it may be worth it, your choice).

[DevianID]

I think mark of nurgle marines are a real waste. For 261 you can get 7 plague marines with 2 meltas, powerfist, and icon, with a rhino. Feel no pain means that you take half the casualties from non ap 2 weapons compared to the 10 man MoN squad, and blight grenades reduce a charging squad of banshee's attacks by 33%, again making you as survivable or more than a MoN squad that costs 40 points more.

 

With those changes, you save 112 points on the 3 troop squads, and you are actually more resiliant to boot. I would upgrade the princes to lash princes for 5 points per--so long as you dont mind being a lash player, lash wins games. Mark of nurgle actually does almost nothing to eldar... anything in the eldar force that can deal with a lash prince can deal with a nurgle prince, but lash still wins games.

 

With those changes, you actually dont need the 102 points you have remaining. In fact, I would not even take the extra points, as if you DO win, then the win will be tarnished, as you had 100 extra points over the eldar thus were not on the same playing field.

[Razhbad]

Personally i feel it is a good list, the Oblit's can deal with most Eldar vehicles and your marines can get really close to the flimsy eldar. With your Armour and toughness chances are they will see combat which will wipe them out.

[Zhukov]

Read Corpse his rundown on the eldar codex, but a lot of things I'm seeing different:

 

Warwalkers are most of the time equipt with double scatter lasers. So that 24 S6 shots in a unit of 3. Brightlance and starcanon?? They never put these on warwalkers, makes them hideously expensive and the starcanon not of much use at the moment due to nerfing them to 2 shots instead of 3. That and the amount of cover saves.

 

Dark reapers? They dont take these often if they dont tailor there lists against marines. Against other armies then Meq they are too expensive. Compare these our Thousand sons, not good for allcomers lists, but against marines they are good.

 

Mainly Eldar rely a lot on mass shots these days. Dire avengers and warwalkers are popular. But their 'indestroyable' skimmers and fire dragons are still good too.

[eyescrossed]

none of their FA is melee, which is a relief

Shining Spears aren't melee? :D

[Retalitus]

It's so difficult to second-guess what he's going to play against me, but I think he'll be going for fast attack options, so I'm expecting a fair amount of jet bikes in there... but, saying that, he played a very jet bike-heavy army against the Tau last week, so he could be trying something very different! Arrgghh!

 

His troop choices could be anything frankly (however, I'm thinking he'll have some Banshees and Dire Avengers), but I'm certainly expecting some wraithlords to be popping up - I'm thinking that my power-fists should be able to help me out with those. I haven't played my LR for a few games, so chances are they'll be a bright lance or two in his force in case I do take it. I can also see him taking a couple of Fire Prisms, as I don't think he's played those for a few games... really tough to know though, as he's got lots of models, and he's not afraid to use 'em!

 

I guess my best tactic is to rush my 3 rhinos forward and try and get into CC with his units ASAP, backed up by the 2 DPs. I'll use my oblits from turn 1 to take out his heavy threats, and drop in those termies to take out anything else that's causing me trouble. I'm tempted to go for dual lash, but I'll be honest and say that I'm just not experienced enough a player to make the most out of those extra points. At the mo, I kinda feel more comfortable just having those DPs kicking ass, and hopefully taking less hits thanks to the extra toughness of the Nurgle mark.

[Razhbad]

As my main army is eldar i'll tell you what i'd use to bring you down. I'd have at least 3 units of Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents with scatter lasters (all hail bladestorm). Howling banshees & dark Reapers to remove that pesky 3+ either Fire Dragons or Wraithguard to be rid of any heavy and to finish it off a nice Farseer who would have things like Doom, Fortune & Guide (everyone loves rerolls)

[Sons of Horus]

yes definitely take flamers. avoid CC with banshees and wraithlords. a couple of fists should deal with the wraithlords though.

[chillin]

It's so difficult to second-guess what he's going to play against me, , so I'm expecting a fair amount of jet bikes in there... , so he could be trying something very different! Arrgghh!

 

His troop choices could be anything frankly (however, I'm thinking he'll have some Banshees and Dire Avengers), but I'm certainly expecting some wraithlords to be popping up - I'm thinking that my power-fists should be able to help me out with those.

 

It really doesn't matter what your opponent takes, a good list is a good list and good tactics are good tactics.

Trying to second guess what he's going to take and counter it, is really not the way to go about it. Have a game plan and build a list that goes with the game plan.

 

Avoid WL's if you can. Sure the PF may be able to kill him eventually, but it'll tie up the squad forever, plenty long enough for him to drop some scorpions or something on them. The WL is slow, just try to avoid it if possible. Always shoot at his transports be4 the WL, that's where the real threat is.