On Grey Knights

[Bjorn Darkwolf]

First off let me preface this by saying i have been playing warhammer, and 40k for the last twelve or so years, i have seen several editions of the game, and played a smattering of armies in each. i do not consider my self elite as a player but likewise i do not consider myself a beginner. With 40k my first and finest army has been and is my Wolves. Knights have been a close in terms of my affection, but have never preformed as well. This is a problem i have never fully understood.

 

There are several strong parallels between the two forces, (not to imply that they are at all the same) they both have a strong melee ability good shooting. They also have the wonderful asset of not needing to charge, both have true grit ability and the wolves have counter charge. Rapid fire bolters compete well at close range with stormbolters, but not quite as well.

 

The one major issue i have had with the knights, is a lack of anti armor. my wolves put out a decent amount of missile and lascannon shots, (though not much more than my knights) and have melta-weapons all trough out my front lines. (which of course end up in the middle of their lines) Now i have two TLLC/ML dreads and a GHLR in my GK army but for some reason (even when i focus fire) i have issues with any sort of enemy armor. I thought about putting Combi-meltas on my Justicars, but that did not seem fluffy or efficient.

 

The other issue i am having though not as bad as my anti armor issue is the low model count, (this however is another issue i am very familier with as a wolf player) Blast weapons, and massed small arms fire seems to become an issue at range, (shrouding helps a little but not once we are in the 12-24inch range.

 

i have read "the way of the water warrior" and that did help quite a bit, reactive play has become something that am extremely fond of, and have made work exceptionally well with my wolves. however, i just cant quite seem to get my knights to be versatile enough to do that. there are some enemies which GKs are really good at dealing with, but heavily armored, mechanized and or really shooty armies are tough.

 

This is something i absolutly have to figure out. Grey knights are one of if not the coolest force out there, and i need to find a way to make them work.

 

Just because it is relevant (my main sparing partner is codex marines, now with the new codex led by Vulcan)

 

If anyone has any thoughts or ideas please post.

 

if not i'll expand and clarify a few things later this evening when i return from the gym.

 

Thanks Very Much.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I thought about putting Combi-meltas on my Justicars, but that did not seem fluffy or efficient.

 

Or legal either - Justicars can only select items from the wargear section. :D

 

there are some enemies which GKs are really good at dealing with, but heavily armored, mechanized and or really shooty armies are tough.

 

That's the price you pay for being good in some areas - you are weak at others in order to balance the army.

 

I'm not much of an expert on C:SM, but I can tell you to stick at it. I know from personal experience that it is possible to defeat an armoured company with a Pure GK force, and it should be no different when facing any other army. It's just easier to beat certain armies. Persevere, and learn from experience.

 

Some lucky dice for your anti-armour units wouldn't go amiss either. :P

[Bjorn Darkwolf]

Thanks for the response. In all honesty i can say i understand that an army must have both strengths and weaknesses, and rightly so. we cant have an army that is exceptionally good at everything. that would not work at all for game balance. i know this and am comfortable with it. I don't want to come across as whining about a unplayable dex.

 

What i want to discuss is how we work with this weakness. what do we as players do to compensate? What are viable methods bringing anti-armor elements, and balancing that with a decent amount of troops. i guess i really should have directed this post in the direction of list composition and the development of army synergy. How are your lists set up? do you guys run a three raider list (as i know some do) if so how does it work out (seems very aggressive to me, but i am sure that can be effective if played correctly) Personally i am stuck between two TLLC/ML Dreads and a Raider, or three Dreads.

 

i guess i am looking for some insight into the way other people play this.

 

as you mentioned i am sure that through playing the army more and more i will learn first hand what seems to work, and what does not. but as i am still really working my list i am interested to see what others have done and apply their experiences to my decisions on how to work my list to be being ready to be table tested.

 

Thanks very much.

 

I'll Post a list as soon as i can get one ready, and maybe we can take a look at that and critique it opposed to me just asking for your thoughts on this issue in general.

 

-Bjorn Darkwolf

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Maybe you should try playing a mixed Inquisition force? Throw in some allied IG (you can't combine Allied Marines with GK, more's the pity ;) ) with lascannons and a Sentinel Squadron with the same?

 

Pure GK is one of the hardest lists to play, if not the hardest. Being the idiot that I am, I tried it from scratch rather than starting with a mixed force. I can't really recommend doing what I did, it's not easy to say the least. Even if you've played GK for years, it still helps to go "back to basics" as it were and fiddling with your army list.

[Stargazer]

With Grey knights I find the best thing to do against heavily armoured infantry of tanks is to completely focus your fire. If there's a terminator squad that needs taking down for example shoot everything you have at them until they are reduced to your satisfaction or destroyed. There's only so many 2+ saves your opponent can make!

 

Same goes with armour, if you are only shooting 1TL las at the target per turn the you will take the whole game trying to kill it. Whereas I find shooting 3TL las a turn either kills it straight off and if it doesn't then it is damaged enough to not be too much of a threat.

 

It's all about prioritising your targets and shooting what is going to give you the most trouble the next turn not necessarily the scariest thing.

 

Hope this helps good luck :tu:

[number6]

Defeating mechanized foes requires a bit of flexibility on the part of DH generals. We can't afford to be purists.

 

Two land raiders are barely adequate at 1500 pts, but any games bigger than that and it's just not enough.

Three land raiders in games greater than 1500 pts are going to be barely adequate against mechanized foes.

Three TLLC/ML dreadnoughts in any force 1500 pts-1750 pts are going to be barely adequate, probably nowhere near enough at around 1850pts-2000 pts.

 

In 5th edition, the new vehicle damage chart (particularly with the way glancing works) and vehicular cover saves have dramatically altered the landscape. This is why melta weapons are king, and the DH have very little access to them. TLLCs are still viable, but they are nowhere near as deadly as in pre-5th edition games. They are rarely going to be enough to help you defeat mechanized foes. They're fine against hybrid lists, but truly mechanized lists are simply not going to be handled by the old favorite, reliable tools in most DH general's toolboxes.

 

So, if you're serious about effectively combating mechanized enemies with the DH, you must incorporate at least some of the following into your army lists.

 

* ISTs with 2x meltas in Rhinos. Essentially, go mech (at least partially) yourself! Is quite cheap if you only take 5-6 ISTs.

 

* Allied Sisters of battle with 2x meltas in Rhinos. Really a much better choice than ISTs as far as points efficiency is concerned. However, this unit does require a larger minimum points investment than ISTs.

 

* Allied Seraphim with 2x inferno pistols. This unit has always been a mainstay of my anti-armour aresnal. I personally prefer kitting it out a bit for more staying power and flexibility (8 girls, the pistols, and a VSS with an eviscerator), but you can get buy with a minimal unit of 5 girls and no VSS.

 

* Allied Canoness with inferno pistol, eviscerator, jump pack, mantle of ophelia, cloak of st aspira. For the same cost as a naked GM, you get this surprising little beast of an HQ. If you happend to have other allied Sisters in your list, you could have enough faith to burn to really turn this model into an absolute terror! Even without much Faith -- but if you do take her, you should probably also be taking allied Seraphim as well -- she's still very efficient and effective.

 

* Inducted IG. The new IG platoons are amazing! Much better than before. Just one of these and some meltas/chimeras/lascannons/autocannons will do wonders for your anti-armour capabilities. And if you take at least two platoons, then you free up all kinds of other goodies capable of tackling enemy armour like sentinels and a leman russ!

[Inquisitor Fox]

I am leaning towards making my Seraphim 2 TL inferno pistols, then my VSS with a plasma pistol and power weapon. Since you can also give the entire squad meltabombs, I don't like the eviscerator really.. I'd rather shoot and not have to assault at all! Personal preference though.

 

One thing to consider (which I'm going to toy with when I get around to playing again after the new baby) is that all melee combat is against tanks rear armor. The best rear armor I've seen on any non-land raider/monolith tank is a 11 or 12.

 

ALL melee combat really by Grey Knights is at at least strength 6 (save power armored GK's w/ psycannon or incinerator), and you also have the option of giving your Justicar's Melta Bombs. You can also get Termies with Thunder Hammers (my Termie squad has a Justicar w/ Thunder Hammer and Psycannon (with the Thunder Hammer as a free swap per unit entry), then regular Termies, one with Psycannon) which are strength 8. This ability to reliably engage in melee with enemy vehicles should not be underestimated. Regular Marines can make short work of most tanks in an assault, Grey Knights do so even better!

 

Something to consider anyway. You have an army where the anti-tank options AREN'T reduced to just shooting attacks! It may not be the most effective or efficient, but beggers can't be choosers!

[Aidoneus]

S6 melee attacks will work in a pinch, but I wouldn't rely on them too much. Generally, tanks will either be expendable transports, in which case you really need to worry about the infantry they're carrying, or they will be long-range support behind the infantry lines, in which case they will be hard to get to. Vindicators are one notable exception, and you might be able to catch them. However, another problem is that tanks can move 6" and shoot every turn, or farther if they don't shoot, meaning a footslogging squad will virtually never catch a tank that doesn't want to be caught (and is paying attention). Also, never underestimate the danger that enemy dreadnoughts represent, since you hit them on their front armour, and therefore can only glance on 6s.

 

Inducting IG for lascannons is a bit better, but still not ideal. After all, GK can get lascannons and missile launchers already. As #6 said, these just aren't good enough any more. You can probably get by with them, but they aren't enough to reliably kill tanks, and sometimes something just really needs to die, and you need to have the tools to be sure.

 

The best bet is getting some melta weapons in there. ISTs are the easiest for this, and probably the cheapest. A small unit with 2 meltas in a rhino (IA2 update, of course, for a cheaper cost) can be as low as 105pts, although you probably want 6 or 8 IST, in which case it's 115 or 135pts, still very cheap. Allying-in basic sisters squads is a really good idea too. For only 1 more point per model, you get power armour and +1 Ld, which is just an incredible bargain. Of course, you can only get two of those units, but then again 2 is probably enough, as you want to have room left for your PAGKs. For a few more points, you could also invest in a few more models, and more importantly in a VSS, who not only can give you a third melta (combi-style), but who also lets you use Acts of Faith.

 

Of course, probably the most effective option is to start with a Space Marine list (or space wolf list) as your base army, and then ally Grey Knights into it. That way you have access to all the neat options of the parent list, and your PAGKs can run alongside other marines. Just take the basic HQ and 2 Troops from the parent list, 2 PAGK squads and perhaps some GKT or an inquisitor, and then any extra frills you want from the parent list. Of course, this option feels like "cheating" to some, and certainly is the least "pure" in terms of being a Grey Knight list. But hey, you still get your precious grey knights on the field, and your enemies won't be walking all over you all the time. At the very least, it's an option worth considering, even if you ultimately decide to stay with DH base list.

[Ranzimus]

* ISTs with 2x meltas in Rhinos. Essentially, go mech (at least partially) yourself! Is quite cheap if you only take 5-6 ISTs.

 

* Allied Sisters of battle

 

* Allied Seraphim with 2x inferno pistols.

 

* Allied Canoness with inferno pistol,

 

* Inducted IG. The new IG platoons are amazing! Much

 

 

So, what you're saying, is that one should simply play Sisters and maybe mix in a few GK, right? I too love Grey Knights. I have since they appeared in Lost and the Damned(?) back in the day. I don't see them as being competitive in the current environment. :)

[Aidoneus]

So, what you're saying, is that one should simply play Sisters and maybe mix in a few GK, right?

I don't think that's at all what #6 meant, especially since I know the style armies he plays. What I think he was saying is that these are all good options. What he was NOT saying is that you should take ALL of these options in every list. For example, I know #6 likes to take the squad of seraphim in his otherwise-entirely-DH army. Alternatively, you could skip seraphim and instead take SoB squads. Or instead of that, you could have the cannoness, and so on. After all, you don't necessarily want to overload your army with anti-tank squads; saving room for some nice anti-infantry PAGK squads is always a good idea. :)

[Terminus]

Why not use the C:SM codex as a base? Don't field tactical squads, but rather use a pair of scout squads to satisfy your requirement, and then just use some PAGK. This way, you'll get to utilize all of the shooty SM toys and all the special characters (KHAAAN!!!), while using the hawt GK models.

[Uncle Mel]

* ISTs with 2x meltas in Rhinos. Essentially, go mech (at least partially) yourself! Is quite cheap if you only take 5-6 ISTs.

 

I recently played a game against my cousin's space wolves. I used this setup against his land raider. it did take me three turns of shooting to destroy it though. i am thinking to add acombi melta to the sergeant but that would cost me as much as another pagk. the other downside is that they can't use the rhino to "drive by" to its fullest extend.

Another option is just to add another squad with rhino.

 

I just thought that it isn't a 100% sure fool proof win against a tank. It is good but not perfect. it is however the best thing available to pure DH.

 

my thoughts

 

Mel

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

here is how i have dealt with tanks in a 'pure' GK list for anti tanks.

 

usually 2 psycannons in a squad, its pricey, but 6 str 6 shots will eat up pretty much any troop transport or even do some lucky damages on the sides of tanks. for true tank hunting, you are pretty much forced to take dreads with ML/LC in order to get the job done, maybe even take a land raider, but thats a lot of points in most games just for tank hunting. you can of course try running your dreads as fast as you can to get into CC with a tank and blow it up, risky but it has helped my take out a LR or two before, and yes walkers can run, but you better pop smoke if you do. the only other things you can do is take a grey knight hero and grab yourself thunder/daemonhammer and a combi melta gun (yes they can grab both and still get the bonus attack for 2 ccw, because the hammers listed under 1 hand weapons, and in termi armor you can wield 2 hand weapons 1 handed). theres the tank hunting power in a pure force, unless you count the orbital strike, but that cant be relied upon and it only hits in a certain area. (i would say hammerhand, but thats an unreliable ability that wont really help in tank killing)

 

heres some tricks to do it in an GK/inquisitor squad:

grab an inquisitor (lord or reg) give him a small retinue, and that will allow you to field a valkyrie. you can download the IA2 update that has the rules for the inq val for free and it gives you what you need. take 2 hellstrike missiles (str 8 ap 3 1 shot 72", but you get 2 with the val), upgrade the multilaser to a lascannon, and you got a very fast, and dangerous tank killer (with some luck) that can load up to 12 models and get them 36" anywhere on the board. you could also burn up a few elite slots and take a bunch of inq's with thunderhammers and combi-meltas and a few henchmen. you can grab some IST and give them some meltas and plasma guns. you can nab a vindicare assasin, even though his turbo pen shot is only good for 1 vehicle, a sniper rifle can still glance armor 12. and if your feeling really experimental, try grabbing a demonhost.

 

i wont go into using allies for tank hunters, others have beat me to it, but these are just my thoughts on it and how to do it using units listed only in the DH dex without allies. hope it helps you.

[Uncle Mel]

usually 2 psycannons in a squad, its pricey, but 6 str 6 shots will eat up pretty much any troop transport or even do some lucky damages on the sides of tanks. for true tank hunting, you are pretty much forced to take dreads with ML/LC in order to get the job done, maybe even take a land raider, but thats a lot of points in most games just for tank hunting.

 

psycannons are not really qualified for tank hunting because it can only dent av11

 

dreads and raiders are a very common sight in pure gk lists but might not be enough to "kill that, right here, right now"

 

heres some tricks to do it in an GK/inquisitor squad:

grab an inquisitor (lord or reg) give him a small retinue, and that will allow you to field a valkyrie. you can download the IA2 update that has the rules for the inq val for free and it gives you what you need. take 2 hellstrike missiles (str 8 ap 3 1 shot 72", but you get 2 with the val), upgrade the multilaser to a lascannon, and you got a very fast, and dangerous tank killer (with some luck)

 

this might be a better tactic but at bs3 it is still not sure of a 100% win

 

you could also burn up a few elite slots and take a bunch of inq's with thunderhammers

 

thunder hammers only bring the strength of an =][= up to 6 so not enough to deal with battle tanks and higher (i know they strike rear armor) better to take an =][= and three acolytes with melta bombs.

 

just my thoughts

 

mel

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

the reason why i say thunderhammers is because no matter what happens, it always makes a crew shaken result, which takes out all its firepower and since your in contact with the tank, it cant tank shock you because it needs to atleast move 6" in order to try to tank shock. and as i said "with some luck" you will be able to take out tanks with the missiles and lascannons, to be a real major pain, and if you have the wallet and points to run it, take 3 inquisitors, and 1 inq lord, give them all retinues, and take 4 valkyries, then take only 2 range dreads and that leaves you with some real real mean tank hunting force that allows you to transport 4 squads 36", has multiple tank killing weapons (if limited though unfortunately) and they can only be glanced, among other things. it will be a little pricey both money and point wise (atleast 500pts just for the 4 vals) not including inqs and rets, but that still gives you plenty of room to buy your dreads, PAGK, and whatever evil things you can think of.

[Uncle Mel]

Ah so you are suggesting a pure tank hunting force, in that case i would run inq's in valks as well but with a retinue of 3 warriors with meltagun (or multi melta) and three acolytes with combi melta or melta bombs. the inq i would give a combi melta and bombs as well.

 

however this would make for an awfully one sided army and not very effective against all other builds. I prefer a DH army with a mix of IST a callidus and an inq, GK's + land raiders and inducted guard. this combo means i have nasty tricks, suvivability and hitting power.

 

anti armor is introduced in the form of meltaguns and raiders.

 

mel

[Refyougee]

Playing Pure GK is accepting that Vehicles will give you some trouble. Going the route of the water warrior (With some help from non-GK forces) helps mitigate this and to give you an idea here is what I like to field in 1500 points:

 

Land Raider (Transport) - 250

Inq Lord (Combimelta) - 60

-Meltavet X3 - 60

-Mystic X2

 

GK Land Raider - 250

-PAGK X4, Justicar, Targeter - 151

 

GK Land Raider Crusader - 255

-PAGK X8, Justicar, Targeter - 251

 

GK Termie X3, Psycannon X2, Auspex, Targeter - 211

 

This gives you quite a bit of anti-tank weaponry without having to put points into a IST-filled Rhino which would become the focal point of any weapons under S9. The Terminators are relatively safe thanks to the Shrouding and can help pop weaker transports. You also get a Multi-Melta from the Crusader and when it hits it is golden. It also helps mitigate what I feel is one of the Tri-Raider list's biggest problem: Deep Striking Meltas/Multi-Meltas. Those two Mystics inside the Raider give you a large zone of coverage and you can take out a Land Speeder or Dread with a couple of Lascannon shots (Or at least stop it from shooting its Multimelta). The unit count is low but as someone who has played GK you should be used to that.

[number6]

So, what you're saying, is that one should simply play Sisters and maybe mix in a few GK, right?

I don't think that's at all what #6 meant, especially since I know the style armies he plays. What I think he was saying is that these are all good options. What he was NOT saying is that you should take ALL of these options in every list. For example, I know #6 likes to take the squad of seraphim in his otherwise-entirely-DH army. Alternatively, you could skip seraphim and instead take SoB squads. Or instead of that, you could have the cannoness, and so on. After all, you don't necessarily want to overload your army with anti-tank squads; saving room for some nice anti-infantry PAGK squads is always a good idea. ;)

Quoted for truth. :P

 

All-mech armies are the achilles heel of the DH army. That's just the way it is. It doesn't mean the situation is hopeless, however! My point was just that if you really need to be "competitive" with fully mechanized enemies, you'll need to expand your options outside of the GK-only box.

[Inquisitor Fox]

What I find ironic is that GW has actually designed the different facets of the Inquisition to excel in the environments and situations they AUGHT, which to many people's dismay, is NOT an open field battle (standard 40k scenario).

 

The Witch Hunters excel in city fights. Heavy terrain, short range, against primarily a lesser armored cult/horde type foe. They do not have large open field weaponry, or excel in battles of range. They are designed to storm buildings and fortified city blocks, lay waste with fire and melta to select targets, and overwhelm with superior rapid fire range weaponry.

 

Grey Knights are designed to take out small numbers of very elite opponents with selective pinpoint attacks. Also, Not open field battles! Incredible at what they do though...

 

The best solution, which is written into our Inquisition Codices, is what is actually the Fluff solution...

 

Induct the troops who DO excel at open field battles and use them to fight for us. The Space Marines and the Imperial Guard.

[Aidoneus]

What I find ironic is that GW has actually designed the different facets of the Inquisition to excel in the environments and situations they AUGHT, which to many people's dismay, is NOT an open field battle (standard 40k scenario).

 

The Witch Hunters excel in city fights. Heavy terrain, short range, against primarily a lesser armored cult/horde type foe. They do not have large open field weaponry, or excel in battles of range. They are designed to storm buildings and fortified city blocks, lay waste with fire and melta to select targets, and overwhelm with superior rapid fire range weaponry.

 

Grey Knights are designed to take out small numbers of very elite opponents with selective pinpoint attacks. Also, Not open field battles! Incredible at what they do though...

 

The best solution, which is written into our Inquisition Codices, is what is actually the Fluff solution...

 

Induct the troops who DO excel at open field battles and use them to fight for us. The Space Marines and the Imperial Guard.

Wow, I have honestly never thought of it like this. Once you point it out though, it makes perfect sense! Very insightful!

[Ozybonza]

Playing Pure GK is accepting that Vehicles will give you some trouble. Going the route of the water warrior (With some help from non-GK forces) helps mitigate this and to give you an idea here is what I like to field in 1500 points:

 

Land Raider (Transport) - 250

Inq Lord (Combimelta) - 60

-Meltavet X3 - 60

-Mystic X2

 

GK Land Raider - 250

-PAGK X4, Justicar, Targeter - 151

 

GK Land Raider Crusader - 255

-PAGK X8, Justicar, Targeter - 251

 

GK Termie X3, Psycannon X2, Auspex, Targeter - 211

 

This gives you quite a bit of anti-tank weaponry without having to put points into a IST-filled Rhino which would become the focal point of any weapons under S9. The Terminators are relatively safe thanks to the Shrouding and can help pop weaker transports. You also get a Multi-Melta from the Crusader and when it hits it is golden. It also helps mitigate what I feel is one of the Tri-Raider list's biggest problem: Deep Striking Meltas/Multi-Meltas. Those two Mystics inside the Raider give you a large zone of coverage and you can take out a Land Speeder or Dread with a couple of Lascannon shots (Or at least stop it from shooting its Multimelta). The unit count is low but as someone who has played GK you should be used to that.

 

Actually, you have to have a GK Hero to take the GK Land Raiders.

[Secondwind]

I think hes having a BC HQ + 2 terminator retinue. As it costs exactly the same as the elite version and still opens access to GK land raiders.

[JCarter]

I don't understand why so many take targeters. Are they that poor at estimating ranges?

[number6]

I don't understand why so many take targeters. Are they that poor at estimating ranges?

It's just a point! When you have it to spare ... why not?

[Grey Mage]

I don't understand why so many take targeters. Are they that poor at estimating ranges?

It's just a point! When you have it to spare ... why not?

Besides, it lets you know if your in assault range, you can guestimate for other units, and decide if you want to run even afterwords.... its incredibly useful.