Rites of Battle and Weaken Resolve

[Gornall]

There is a lively debate on Dakka about whether Weaken Resolve (new IG PBS) modifies your unit's Leadership Stat or is a modifier to your Leadership test rolls. The reason this is important is that Sicarius allows units to test using his Leadership, so in the first case, a unit hit with Weaken Resolve would get to take a Ld 10 test, while the second case would take a Ld 10 - X (X=reduction from WR) test. What do you all think? To me, the wording of both rules seems to indicate that WR reduces the statline for the affected unit, not apply a modifier to the tests, and Sicarius's ability allows units to test on HIS leadership and not their own. This would effectively negate WR against an army with Sicarius.

[Tonoshi]

I believe you treat it as a negative modifier for the turn. In this case, I would use LD 10 - x ( x = number of psykers) for your leadership tests.

 

Psykers give you -X to LD.

Something forces you to take a LD test such as Pinning weapons or casualties.

You choose to use Sicarius' ability for the LD 10.

Apply negative modifiers.

Roll dice.

 

Thats how I would see the scenario play out. I'm open for discussion about it though since Black Templars have the same ability.

[Seahawk]

Wow, how can there be a debate (from either viewpoint, I'll take the IG in this one).

 

Here is the order of things:

 

- Psychic power reduces the Ld of the unit. No negative modifiers, they are simply reduced by the number of psykers, down to 2.

- So now the tactical squad is Ld 2 from 9. Sicarius rolls along, and they take a casualty. The tactical squad, instead of using their crappy Ld value, decide instead to use Sicarius's (not replace theirs with his, just use it)

- Here we have a Ld 2 unit using a Ld 10 instead. Presto they pass.

 

Sicarius doesn't replace their leadership with his, because then it would still get reduced as it is theirs now. No, they have theirs (which is 2) and they have the opportunity to use Sicarius's 10 as per Rites of Battle. Now, if the PBS reduced Sicarius's Ld to 2 and the squad's Ld to 2, then you'd use Ld 2.

[Gornall]

For clarity the WR rule is:

 

Choose one enemy unit within 36" and line of sight of the Psyker Battle Squad. For the remainder of the turn, the enemy unit's Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit utlising the power (to a minimum of 2).

 

Sicarius's:

 

If Sicarius is on the table, all other Space Marine units can use his Leadership for any Morale or Pinning tests.

 

It doesn't say anything about a modifier to rolls... just the unit's Leadership. Sicarius's rule states that units can use his leadership for individual tests, not that they replace their leadership with his all the time. That's why I think that you can take the Leadership 10 test with no modifier. If WR said something like "for the remainder of the turn, the enemy unit takes all leadership, morale, and pinning tests at -X leadership" then I'd say you took the penalty. That's just my thoughts.

 

EDIT: I'm /concur with Seahawk. He just presented it more clearly.

[Legatus]

I can certainly see why a lot of people would protest that a simple special rule could completely negate the effect of that psychic power, but on the other hand it is not much different from an all fearless Chaos or Tyranid army. At least Codex Marines need to take a Special Character (and thus need to feel appropriately cheap) to negate that psychic power, while Blood Angels and Dark Angels can do that with a regular Captain.

[Gornall]

Retracted.

[gil galed]

Wow, how can there be a debate (from either viewpoint, I'll take the IG in this one).

 

Here is the order of things:

 

- Psychic power reduces the Ld of the unit. No negative modifiers, they are simply reduced by the number of psykers, down to 2.

- So now the tactical squad is Ld 2 from 9. Sicarius rolls along, and they take a casualty. The tactical squad, instead of using their crappy Ld value, decide instead to use Sicarius's (not replace theirs with his, just use it)

- Here we have a Ld 2 unit using a Ld 10 instead. Presto they pass.

 

Sicarius doesn't replace their leadership with his, because then it would still get reduced as it is theirs now. No, they have theirs (which is 2) and they have the opportunity to use Sicarius's 10 as per Rites of Battle. Now, if the PBS reduced Sicarius's Ld to 2 and the squad's Ld to 2, then you'd use Ld 2.

 

in my opinnion seahawk is completely right, the Psyker squads reduce the target squads leadership by X, they don't force negative modifiers on tests, so unless Sicarius is in the squad being targetted the squad will test at ld10

[Praeger]

As mentioned, Seahawk is correct.

 

However i would like to point this out (as some people seam to have overlooked it)

 

IF the psyker decides to whack Sicarius over the head, then any unit using HIS LD value will be doing so with the negatives in place - this is becouse HIS LD value is now reduced and your are using HIS LD (not his unmodified LD).

 

Very important thing to watch out for :P

[Legatus]

But since 'Rites of Battle' appears to be optional, being consistent with the basic rules of allways using the highest LD available to the unit, that should not be a problem.

[chapter master 454]

would stubborn negate it or does it still get through?

[Maligoare]

I'd say yes. Stubborn just means that you ignore negative Ld modifiers when taking Morale tests, which fits fine with the wording of the WR ability/power.

[Captain Malachi]

But since 'Rites of Battle' appears to be optional, being consistent with the basic rules of allways using the highest LD available to the unit, that should not be a problem.

True (as I read it) but it still lowers the leadership of all units by one. Essentially anyway.

[Seahawk]

So the unit would be a Stubborn Ld 2. Again, it's not a negative modifier (which Stubborn negates). It's simply making their leadership a lower value, just like the culexus assassin's soulless rule.

[Trekari]

With regards to WR vs. Stubborn:

 

Page 8:

Modifiers may apply to the Leadership characteristic in particularly trying circumstances – for example, -1 if the unit suffered wounds from an Ordnance barrage weapon, as described later.

 

Page 43:

 

MORALE CHECK MODIFIERS

Certain circumstances can make Morale checks harder

for a unit to pass. This is represented by applying

Leadership modifiers to Morale checks, which can

reduce the unit’s Leadership value by -1, -2 or

sometimes even more.

 

Stubborn USR: "When taking Morale tests, stubborn

units always ignore any negative Leadership modifiers."

 

Stubborn ignores negative Ld. modifiers when taking Morale checks.

Ld. modifiers can reduce the unit's Ld. value.

Weaken Resolve reduces the unit's Ld. value.

Therefore, Weaken Resolve is a negative Ld. modifier.

Therefore, Stubborn units ignore it when taking Morale checks.

[Seahawk]

Oh right, good call. I was rushing my answer on the way out the door and didn't look it up, but you're right.

[OldWherewolf]

Stubborn ignores negative Ld. modifiers when taking Morale checks.

Ld. modifiers can reduce the unit's Ld. value.

Weaken Resolve reduces the unit's Ld. value.

Therefore, Weaken Resolve is a negative Ld. modifier.

Therefore, Stubborn units ignore it when taking Morale checks.

 

not true.

if it rains, then the sidewalk is wet

if you pour a bucket of water on the sidewalk then the sidewalk is wet

therefore, pouring a bucket of water on the sidewalk means its raining.

 

It doesn't say that Sic's Ld replaces the basic stat (so it can be modifed), but it does say that you use his Ld for any morale or pinning test. But it doesn't say unmodified leadership, so it does sound like other units get to use his current value (not always a 10). So if Sic takes takes the weaken resolve, which reduces his Ld to 7, anybody wanting to use Sic's leadership would then use Ld7. But if WR was cast on unit X, and Sic is still Ld10, it sounds like unit X gets the full Ld10

 

enemy unit's Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit utlising the power (to a minimum of 2).

 

Since Stubborn ignores negative Leadership modifiers (not just morale modifiers), It sounds like they would ignore Weaken Resove.

[Maligoare]

Brainpsyk, the bit you quote has nothing to do with Sicarius - what you mention has been covered further up.

 

As for Stubborn, I suggest you check the BRB. It only works for negative leadership modifiers on Morale Tests!

[PRoeske]

@Maligoare,

 

So yo suggest WR doesn't work with WR, as the modifier isn't a negative modifier on a Morale Test, but just a general LD modifier, which is not covered bij WR?

 

To me this souds quiet logical.

 

On the point of sicarius, i think it's right to asume you can use his LD 10, as long as he doesnt have WR cast on him.

 

Another situation: When Playing Blac Templars with a marshall/Captain, what happens? If i'm not mistaken, his LD rule says you have to use is LD on all units on the field. Not sure whether this is optional or not. If not, you only have to use WR on him, to reduce all of his army to LD 2 (or 3).

 

Grt. Pim

[Tonoshi]

@Maligoare,

 

So yo suggest WR doesn't work with WR, as the modifier isn't a negative modifier on a Morale Test, but just a general LD modifier, which is not covered bij WR?

 

To me this souds quiet logical.

 

On the point of sicarius, i think it's right to asume you can use his LD 10, as long as he doesnt have WR cast on him.

 

Another situation: When Playing Blac Templars with a marshall/Captain, what happens? If i'm not mistaken, his LD rule says you have to use is LD on all units on the field. Not sure whether this is optional or not. If not, you only have to use WR on him, to reduce all of his army to LD 2 (or 3).

 

Grt. Pim

 

Black Templar Marshals "Rites of Battle" , I believe, is worded the same. Its an option for BT units to use the Marshal's LD.

 

After reading over the various rules and such, I'm changing my opinion. I do believe you can use the LD 10 (Rites of Battle) instead of your modified LD. It still seems odd to me though.

[Seahawk]

It still seems odd to me though.

Think of it this way. The marines in the squad are terrified, but Sicarius isn't and so barks orders through the comnet.

[Morticon]

Hey guys, Im committing threadromancy here to hopefully add something to this debate (that seems to have reached a nice conclusion).

 

The reason is, the INAT FAQ has ruled (RAW to boot!!) that Rites of Battle is effected by the psychic choir.

 

Now the only reason this bothers me is that generally I think the concept of a big fat FAQ (independent or otherwise) is a great idea. And I have played in more than one tournament that uses it.

 

Here are my thoughts:

 

I cannot get around the fact that no matter how people want to argue that this is a modifier, and it still happens when you take the test etc, that there are two very distinct elements.

 

WR -

"...the units LD..."

 

RoB -

"..may use his LD.."

 

I dont see how the targeted squad and its "modifiers" have any impact on the RoB model's LD.

 

All the arguments presented seem to (correct me if im wrong) rely on the additional issues of substitution for leadership or replacement etc. And while that may be very well and good, isnt it convoluting what is very simply use A or B?

 

To me, in simplest form, it breaks down like this:

 

A has an LD value.

B has an LD value.

A may use B's LD value.

Event X happens to make A's LD worse.

 

How do we then get that if we use B its worse too?

 

 

 

Its also interesting, that BnC being a marine centered site has come to the opposite conclusion.

What im appealing to is a set of fresh eyes, with a strong argument to refute mine! Alternatively, a better argument to back mine up.

I'd like to then start another thread or at least take it to PM with the writers so any help is appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Mort.

[DA_WarM]

Another situation: When Playing Blac Templars with a marshall/Captain, what happens? If i'm not mistaken, his LD rule says you have to use is LD on all units on the field. Not sure whether this is optional or not. If not, you only have to use WR on him, to reduce all of his army to LD 2 (or 3).

 

The "Rites of Battle" rule from the Black Templars and Dark Angels and the previous Space Marine codices says you can make any leadership test using the captain's leadership. However, there is an exception to this. If a power forces you to use the unit's leadership then you may not use the captain's. This rule is used by all troops in the field.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Let me quote the rules for the psychic power in question:

 

For the remainder of the turn, the enemy unit's Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit utilising the power(to a minimum of 2).

 

I fail to see why this would lead to a question. The unit affected has their Ld reduced, and along comes someone else who bestows their own Ld to the unit.