Why do people hate us?

[Arnak'ra'Narok]

I know we're daemons and all but why are people so hostile towards us? At my local hobby spot there are a tonne of players who won't fight me. Heck daemons are an army you get to fight piecemeal. Does anyone else have this problem? Coz only an IG player, a SM player and a Tau player will actually fight me lol... and after seeing the way my daemons like to perform those three are getting pretty sick of it... SM player in particular, says soemthing about Skulltaker being 'unfair' for taking Clagar, Sicarius and the honor guard on and winning lol

[Infidel]

The same reason why people hate fighting a dual lash + 9x oblits army. Unless the player is coming to the table with competition in mind, they cant beat it, similar with Nob biker list, LR spam lists, horde ork etc etc.

 

Back when the Dex was first out, a mono-Khorne list with Grinder support made it self quite visible amongst the GTs, as did sveral mono-nurgle lists.

 

While some other list have the clear distinction between being fun and being competitive, a decent mono-god/themed daemon list can not only wipe any "fun" list off the table, but also remain quite competitive.

[Captain Malachi]

Sounds to me like they just don't like a tough challenge....

[greatcrusade08]

IMO its more down to the class of player than the armies they play...id take in any army any time, i dont much care for winning and losing.

Only if i dont play i wont learn thier strenghts and weaknesses and id never be able to beat them in future :D

 

GC08

[Lord Eltor]

I can't think of ultra competitive mono god lists! At least not for Nurgle!

 

In general daemons aren't that UBER (I love this germanism!). I though the opposite, a lot of fun to play with/against! Would you mind to post your list?

[DuskRaider]

Mono Nurgle can actually be quite nasty if done right. Truthfully, I have a friend with Tau who refuses to play my Daemons, and it really comes down to the fact that he has absolutely no tact whatsoever. He likes to just sit back as far as possible and take pot shots at my units. With my Daemons, Turn 1 he's got a Soul Grinder shooting its tongue through his vehicles, Turn 2 half my army is in CQB with his troops.

 

I agree with GC08, I'll take on any army, competitive or not. I play for the fun of the game... but I can also throw out sickening lists on people I don't like or who take the game too seriously.

[Emperor's Instrument]

I see this quite a lot at my local GW, the words "broken", "unfair", "point and click army" get used quite a lot. It's mostly tongue in cheek but I do get the feeling that some people actually do feel that way.

 

I'm not totally sure why though as there are about half a dozen daemon armies in the store but not all of them are played well. My BA have splatted a couple of the players recently but on the flipside some of the other lists has trounced me :D

 

I've just started down the Daemon route and will be building an all Khorne list but I'll be endevouring to be a good player :lol:

[Grand Master Tyrak]

SM player in particular, says soemthing about Skulltaker being 'unfair' for taking Clagar, Sicarius and the honor guard on and winning lol

 

Maybe he doesn't like the fact that even they couldn't justify stealing your toys for the next SM codex? :P

[DevianID]

I think one of the problems is that Daemons are ment to challenge the preconceptions of the game, and some people hate change. Aka, before the Daemon codex, both sides deployed, and the slug fest ensued. But with Daemons, there is no deployement, there are no long turns of walking across the board. Armies that were in autopilot, aka gunlines that rarely if ever use the movement phase or assault phase, now have their idea of how the game works challenged, as they get 1 shooting phase before the daemons are upon them instead of 6.

 

Really, I think the Daemons, as a competetive army, are not very great... they are not consistant with having to deepstrike and there are a few counters to daemons that can make daemons automaticly lose, or close to it. We are not talking about the power levels of dual lash+oblits, or orks, or even good 5th ed mech lists. A few good rolls, and yes the Daemons are on fire (probably literally, too) but a few bad rolls, and the entire army is scattered, out of position, and very vulnerable to being picked apart one unit at a time.

 

However, if a small group, who play basicly the same kind of non-competetive games with each other, with the same kinds of lists, is faced with an army that breaks the mold, they can feel overwhelmed. Its pretty tragic, actually... the nature of the hobby is one of change; new editions, new army archetypes, new tactics, new players. If a group resists the change, they alienate new players, new armies, sales for their LGS of said new armies and new players, ect.

[DuskRaider]

The main problem I think people have with Daemons is it's hard to make a solid game plan against them because they're so random, even the one controlling them has no idea what's to happen next. A lot of players like being grounded and having the notion of what's going to happen next, unfortunately for them Daemons are so unpredictable you have no idea what to do.

 

If anything, I'm glad I play against daemons. I used to play a mainly static, non-CQB Death Guard army. That is until the daemons came into existence. I had to keep on my toes, alter tactics on the fly, and I think it made me a better player because of it. Instead of crying and whining about it, perhaps people should embrace the change. If anything, it's only going to help them in the future.

[Rahveel]

Out of curiosity, how do people feel about other DS armies at your LGS? (Such as drop pods, Deathwing, or BA?). Granted these armies are smaller/more elite forces, but if your opponents will fight those kinds of armies, perhaps pointing out that similar tactics, just adjusted to a slightly more numerous (yet far from horde) foe would do them well.

 

Or, you could just tell any imperial players about sanctuary.... but then you wouldn’t want to play them anymore ;P

[Corpse.]

I got through messing around with my 96 model 1750 pt army that all ignore armor saves. Hehe, it was funny actually...

 

1 Chariot of Khorne: Fury = 95

20 'Letters: Fury = 330

20 'Letters: Fury = 330

20 'Letters: Fury, Icon = 355

20 'Letters: Fury, Icon = 355

10 'Letters: Fury, Icon = 195

5 'Letters: Fury = 90

 

Its a list I'll be buying soon. 80 Bloodletters arriving the first wave is ungodly nasty. Max I've lost is 30 from shooting, and I lose very few from that point onward. Set the models about 10" away, no matter which way scatter goes I run them the turn they arrive to make up for it (or lose a few to impassible terrain). Four blocks of 20 is hard to get around. Two icons in first wave, one icon in second wave for the unthinkable 1 or 2. I know skimmers eat it up but its my start to adding princes+fiends+disks and another 3 chariots.

 

Im not hated yet, daemons dont do too well in the local area for a while. (Not enough bloodcrushers/greater daemons bought yet). I hope to change that soon.

[Infidel]

That list would do quite horribly against walkers...you can realy on one rending model per squad to realiably deal with things like that.

 

@ DuskRider:

Couldn't agree more. I have a Emperor's Children army and I've been playing the same game for years until the daemon army came along.

 

@Lord Eltor:

Some sample list of the mono-god army that I came across that had done quite well in toruny scene.

Mono Khorne:

Blood Thirster

Blood Thirster

4x Blood Crusher

2x Blood Crusher

2x Blood Crusher

12x Letter

12x Letter

Grinder, Phlegm

Grinder, Phlegm

Grinder, Phlegm

 

Mono Nurgle:

Greath Unclean One (if the princes dont have breath and NT, take Kulgath)

Epidemius

6 Nurgling

6 Nurgling

12 Plague Bearer

12 Plague Bearer

12 Plague Bearer

Nurgle Prince, Wings, Breath, Ironhide, (some people skip NT and rely on tally)

Nurgle Prince, Wings, Breath, Ironhide

Nurgle Prince, Wings, Breath, Ironhide

[Arnak'ra'Narok]

I actually point out all the time that other armies cn do great against mine, simply because i designed the list without competition in mind. Heck i have no slaneesh units, no greater daemons, no bloodchrushers and no soul grinders.

 

The list actually is something like;

Skulltaker (Absolutely love him)

2 units of 4 flamers

2 units of 10 bloodletters

2 units of 5 Plaguebearers

2 units of 5 Horrors

2 units of 5 Flesh Hounds

2 DP's with random marks depending on what mood mood im in.

[DuskRaider]

See, I love my big guys. I prefer at LEAST one greater daemon (usually Bloodthirster), and at LEAST 2 Daemon Princes (always Nurgle). From there it's all on how I wish to play. A Mono Khorne list is nice, but if your enemy gets the charge off, like with Orks, it's going to be a difficult win. I prefer to throw one or two squads of Plaguebearers in the mix, to either tie my opponent up for rounds on end, or even to take objectives. Once they're dug in, good luck. I'm meh about Soul Grinders. I really like them, a SG with Tongue can reduce an opponents armor to nothing quickly. However, I think DPs are more flexible and have an easier time finding cover (even the larger FW models).

[Arnak'ra'Narok]

I found out something very interesting today. Tyranids playing the 'shooty bugs from hell' approach don't like 20 Bletters and 2 Tzeenetch DPs dropping behind their gun line and showing their devotion to khorne on their synapse creatures turn 2... and then when wave 2 rolled around my flamers decided to have a termagaunt bbq with skultaker smacking up a couple of carnifexs for dramatic effect :P

 

Of course when we played another game he deployed to prevent this... so i borrowed a friends bloodthirster and dropped him in surrounded by plaguebearers. Not 1 shot got through and again synapse went out the window turn 2 with 20 bletters and 2 heavy duty nurgle dps smashing home 3rd turn for a nice big tribute to chaos B)

 

and after seeing how the Bloodthirster does, i am so getting a pair ;)

[Corpse.]

In 3rd edition chaos codex, my Bloodthirster ate up 6 tyranid big critters. Thats 2 tyrants, 3 carnifexes and 3 lictors. Just by himself. When he got nerfed, he couldnt do well against one carnifex, bah..

[Captain Idaho]

Hold on, how did Skulltaker take down Calgar?! He should have crushed him like the bug he is!

 

People originally didn't know how to handle the combat power of Daemons, so just gave up trying. Its sad but true. I guess people just don't like losing and don't always have the stamina to keep on trucking to learn through trial and error...

[Gentlemanloser]

Personal Reasons for the Hate;

 

1) Bloodletters. 20 Man Squad all with Power Weapons and FC. Oh and They score.

2) Skulltaker. Far too cheap (points wise).

3) Flamers. DSing off an Icon (or 12" move) and a Template Weapon that will kill any Squad it hits bar a SS 3++ Terminator Squad. And then, due to the number of wound, possibly even them.

4) Deamon Princes of Nurgle. Not even going t explain that one.

 

Also, the games have a tendancy to be utterly one sided (either way) and boring as anything. Either the Daemon player gets a great first turn DS with little scatter, and by Turn 2 it's over as most my army is in CC they can't win. Or it's the wrong hlaf of the army with lots of failed DS which means I can win by cloing my eyes and throwing dice at random.

 

Mostly it's the first case though.

 

The army is rushed, and not balanced. It's no fun to play against.

 

Edit

 

Forgot two fo the bigger ones as well;

 

5) Everyone is an Eternal Warrior. Come on, it seems like a fluff justification that has resulted in a stupidly power whole army rule.

6) Shooting attacks, not Psychic Powers. This galls me the most. Sure, make the Dameons not have to roll a PErils of the Warp. But to make everything a shooting attack makes all other races anti warp abilities redundant. Like a Chaos Army using Wind can be opposed by Psychic Hoods, Eldar Runes, etc. But the Dameon one can't. Bypasses all of that, as it's a shooting power.

 

Utter rancid cop out.

[DevianID]

The army is rushed, and not balanced. It's no fun to play against.

Meh, I wouldnt go that far, but I see your points...

 

The main problem with the things you mentioned you hate, is that marines in a rhino are 'basicly' immune to every single one of them. Any fully mech list has a really good time kiting around daemons. Its the old school gunlines that have not advanced to the mech way of thinking that have the most trouble. But yes, I do agree that matches with Daemons tend to be decided fairly quickly (making them seem one-sided, even though they are not one-sided matches)--but the same can be said of a lot of 5th edition aggressive lists.

 

Edit: BTW, shooting attacks that are actually psychic powers have existed way before Daemons... Eldar warlocks use destructor as a heavy flamer, with no check and no chance to 'hood' You can consider the BS of the Daemon to be equivelent to their mastery of the warp energies they wield, but to make them check to manifest warp energy, when they ARE manifest warp energy, is kinda silly. You might as well use a psychic hood to stop a Daemon squad from entering play.

[DarKHaZZ13]

tbh I don't get why your getting a hostile reaction

Because in all honesty I think the daemon list is terrible...

I'd fight it anyday over a good eldar list *shudders*

 

now if we were talking warhammer fantasy

I'd tell you to jog on :confused:

[Arnak'ra'Narok]

imagine if daemon shooting attacks were psychic powers, "My Lord of Change is using Bolt of Tzeentch against your rhino, wait, oh no, perils of the warp his brain is being eaten by a boodletter!"

[Seahawk]

I've gotten a few groans, but since there are so few daemons players around my area, people are generally happy and wanting to play against my daemons to get the experience.

 

Daemons is it's hard to make a solid game plan against them because they're so random, even the one controlling them has no idea what's to happen next. A lot of players like being grounded and having the notion of what's going to happen next, unfortunately for them Daemons are so unpredictable you have no idea what to do.

This is a reason I absolutely love playing with them. I can have a general game plan, see if it works, or if I feel like doing seemingly random things that end up with a tabled opponent by the end of the game if I feel like it.

 

I get quizzical looks all the time, like "why are you doing that?" after which I just smile and say "you'll see!" The only one that see's through the trickery is the BT player (with 30 crusaders and 2 LRC's in 1500 pts, heh).

[Gentlemanloser]

The main problem with the things you mentioned you hate, is that marines in a rhino are 'basicly' immune to every single one of them

 

Nah, they've got a little more going than that! Ignoring Daemon Princes and Soul Grinders, I've had many Rhinos popped by Charging Bloodletters/Crushers. With S5 on the charge (and one Rending) popping AV10 in Close Combat isn't usually a problem. Given the number of attacks they get.

 

Plus Flamers get to at least Glance with thier Template.

 

I've found Rhinos to be not great at all. Dreadnoughts are better. Unless they get a DP into CC with them.

 

Edit: BTW, shooting attacks that are actually psychic powers have existed way before Daemons... Eldar warlocks use destructor as a heavy flamer, with no check and no chance to 'hood'

 

Yeah, the occasional 'power' is fine. But everything? No way. And things like that are still classes as Powers aren't they, so Null Rods, etc would still work, even if there's no roll for a PH to oppose.

 

But not the shooting powers of the Daemons!

 

imagine if daemon shooting attacks were psychic powers, "My Lord of Change is using Bolt of Tzeentch against your rhino, wait, oh no, perils of the warp his brain is being eaten by a boodletter!"

 

As I said above, make them immune to Perils of the Warp tests, or even make them not need to roll at all.

 

But don't class every single power as a shooting attack. That's rubbish. Ungents of Warding, Runes of Warding, Psychic Hoods, Null Rods, Aegis Suits, every other Warp Based defense now does absoutly nothing to the Daemons 'powers'. Way to go making loads of other armies defensive items useless...

[Arnak'ra'Narok]

So wait a second, your saying that daemons just shouldnt get shooting attacks we should only get psychic powers? Now thats crap because daemons get like what 9 ranged weapons for our whole army list. If we have to start taking tests for our crappy shooting then im gonna make every other army take a test when they wanna shoot me, whether it be bolter, lasgun, railgun or whatever else they bring to the table!