Why do people hate us?

[Grand Master Tyrak]

So wait a second, your saying that daemons just shouldnt get shooting attacks we should only get psychic powers?

 

No, you should get some of each. I now have to pay 10-15pts per Grey Knight for a bunch of anti-daemon abilities that have essentially been nullified by "fiddling with the rules". Frankly, that stinks.

But by the same token, not all your ranged abilities should be psychic powers, because then the GK anti-psychic abilities would be just as bad as having all daemonic powers being shooting attacks.

[Gentlemanloser]

If we have to start taking tests for our crappy shooting

 

Reread my posts please.

 

And crappy shooting. Breath is one of the most hideous powers/shooting attacks in the game. Ignore Toughness, To-hit, Armour and Cover Saves.

 

What else could you possibly want it to do?

 

Seriously...

 

Edit: The Soulgrinder can stay with Shooting Weapons.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

After giving this thread a good read I can hardly agree with much of what’s posted here. There are times I’ve felt a sense of unfairness when it came to certain army builds. Each generation of the game seemed to have its own issues. In last edition, the Falcon ruled the game table especially when delivering the Flying Circus. This was followed up closely by the Tau Fish of Fury. Today, the Dual Lash prince and Nob Biker (though I fear the Ork hoard more) have stolen the power gamer’s list of preference.

 

I can’t think of a single aspect of the Damon list that can compare. Perhaps the Fate/Crusher list comes close but that’s about it. The Incursion rules go a long way to toning down a Daemon player’s effectiveness. It’s either an aspect of the army you love or hate. Hot reserve rolls can make for a much easier win. The opposite is also true.

 

I think anyone that refuses to play vs. Daemons just needs to play against them more.

 

I now have to pay 10-15pts per Grey Knight for a bunch of anti-daemon abilities that have essentially been nullified by "fiddling with the rules". Frankly, that stinks.

But by the same token, not all your ranged abilities should be psychic powers, because then the GK anti-psychic abilities would be just as bad as having all daemonic powers being shooting attacks.

I REALLY couldn’t disagree more with this statement. I commend the game designers for recognizing that Daemons are not psykers in the same sense as other races and coming up with a simple & straight forward way of putting that into game terms.

 

The problem with the GK rules is that they are outdated to the extreme and need to be revised. Don’t change the Daemon rules – change the GK’s. I’ll also say that any GK player should be able to own Chaos Daemons 9/10 games. For as many rules that GK’s lost all the daemon bonuses were lost as well. Add up, Mystics, Psycannons, Sanctuary and Force weapons that blow off Eternal Warrior and you’ve countered almost everything that makes Daemons hard to face.

 

Daemons have much more to gripe about GK’s than vice versa, IMHO.

 

Rebuttals always accepted, -OMG

[Gentlemanloser]

It's not just GK OMG, they're just the best example.

 

Currently, for every race, attacks from the warp are classified as Psychic Powers. And each race has thier defenses made around that. Like Runes of Warding for the Eldar and normal 'nilla' SM Psychic Hoods.

 

Neither of which now offer *any* protection to the Psychic Powers, sorry shooting attacks, of the Daemon Army.

 

And when you're faced by a Template that ingores Armour Saves and wounds anything on a 4+ (coupled with delivery by DS/12" move, and possibly on one of the Toughest MCs in the game), it starts to really Gall that your armies Psychic defenses don't offer any protection, as this is stupidly not counted as a Psychic power (unlike it's identical cousing in the Choas Marine list).

 

The issue with the GK armoury is definately in part with GW refuasal to update out of date rules, and just saying "Your wargear no has no use, wait for an updated code xin 5 years time". But it's shocking obvious looking at the GK codex how fundamentally wrong this is.

 

Null Rods, Aegis Suits, Psychic Hoods and Ungents of Warding, all designed to stave off attacks from the Warp no longer have any effect on the Daemon army.

 

And if they were updated, how do you make them protect from "normal" shooting attacks without making them 'Uber' versus the humble Bolter/Lasgun?

 

This aside, what other race can get a 20 unit squad of S4 Power Wepaon attacks? The closest equivalent is probably Khorne Berserkers. Who cost more to have a Bolt Pistol instead of a Power Weapon... (Edit: and to be fair a 3+ Save)

 

And can anyone really justify Skulltakers point cost? He's far too cheap for what he can do.

 

Add up, Mystics, Psycannons, Sanctuary and Force weapons that blow off Eternal Warrior and you’ve countered almost everything that makes Daemons hard to face.

 

Mystics and Sanctuary for sure. I'd go so far as a Daemon player to not bother facing anyone using sanctuary. I coudln't think of a more boring game.

 

Force Wepaons are lol on the GK army. It's either on Stern or the GKGM. The S3 Inquisitors won't even tickle. At best, you'll have to worry aobut a GKGM tricked out with SI (And Destroy Daemon). And a very Expensive HQ (without ET himself) at that. So what if he 'Kills outright' the Skulltaker. He's about more than twice the points cost...

 

Just kill him with a Flamer or 'letters.

 

Psycannon Rock. Hardcore. But they are far too expensive to use on PAGK, so you're only see them on GKT. And you won't face many Psycannons.

 

(More Edits)

 

I think currently it's the IG 'dex Dameons need to fear, not the GK. -2 to your Reserve rolls and a lot of fire to pick off what does come dow. I can see that spelling doom tot he Daemon army as a whole.

[greatcrusade08]

My only real complaint with Daemons is that you can now mix the 'gods', by having Khorne/tzeench buils for example..

Personally i preferred the old fashioned way when they were kept seperate.

 

Other than that, its only the weird deepstriking thing that send me for a loop, but then i play scouts and daemons automatically deprive me of my greatest weapon...

All you guys complaining about X and Y, think about little ol me and my scouts who cant even infiltrate, because there are no enemies to get first turn strikes against...

Do i refuse to play them..... hell no, i love playing against daemons!

 

Its supposed to be a game of fun, hating daemons makes even less sense than hating Ultramarines!

 

GC08

[OwlandMoonGuy]

Some other thoughts for you Gentleman:

 

Daemons & psychic powers/defenses

The problem with psychic powers and daemons is a simple issue of rules bloat. Traditionally, daemons were a subset of Chaos Space Marines and never were the two separated. Psychic defenses could stop the Warp based stuff but the bolter, las, plasma, auto, etc. rounds still did their job. Now that the two are discrete (mostly) the issue emerges. Example: Do you level the playing field by making all daemon shooting just shooting or do you make them pass psychic tests for every shot taken and then allow psychic defenses to counter each in turn?

 

So, the designer decided to make daemons like everyone else and therefore avoided the whole issue. They didn’t have to worry about an anti-psychic army outweighing a psychicly inept army. Daemons fight Eldar just like they fight Tau; GK just like they do Orks, etc. etc. I only see the alternate being a nightmare of rule exceptions & the need to introduce new daemonic rules & gear to balance out the counters.

 

Bloodletters

Are one of the better troop choices in the game. That being said, they have some severe limitations. Most armies have sergeant/champion/exarch upgrades that help deal with high toughness enemies, walkers, IC’s and the like. Letters get Fury but that’s it. Likewise, they are largely sitting ducks the turn they arrive on table. The Run rule helps but that’s about it. Daemon players have to deploy them conservatively or close to the enemy lines & risk mishaps. Either way, the approach into close combat will be risky at best. Plus, Daemons are one of the few armies that do not have any transports whatsoever. The deep strike is a bane/blessing rule that keeps units like these from being as optimal as the mathhammer might suggest.

 

SkullTaker

You can debate the abstraction of point costs all day but you can hardly call his cost game breaking. To make him really effective he’s foot slogging infantry. I’ve had bad scatters stick him in the back ½ of the table so that he hardly saw combat. SOMETHING needs to be there to mitigate this eventuality and the cost of the unit is balanced accordingly.

 

Imperial Guard

I agree with you that new IG will be a tough go for Daemon players, Command Squads in Chimeras especially. If the daemon can sacrifice some models on the first incursion to kill off these models then they have a shot. Personally, I wish GW had stated that the bonuses for multiple the Master of the Fleet shouldn’t stack. Here’s hoping that configuration will be rare regardless.

 

-OMG

[Gentlemanloser]

Daemons & psychic powers/defenses

The problem with psychic powers and daemons is a simple issue of rules bloat

 

Yes, it is. :)

 

But not for the reasons you posted.

 

GW took existing 'Chaos' Psychic Powers and made them more 'uber' for the Damens by making them not Psychic Powers. Breath of Chaos already exists. It's a Power, not a shooting attack.

 

Do you level the playing field by making all daemon shooting just shooting or do you make them pass psychic tests for every shot taken and then allow psychic defenses to counter each in turn?

 

Neither. You take the much better route of leaving them as Psychic Powers, but you show the Daemons natural affinity for the warp by makign them either immune to Perils wounds, or not having make the roll in the first place.

 

But you leave the Powers as Powers. That way, you don't utterly invalidate armies wargear/defenses.

 

Bloodletters

 

Sure, but they've got to have some drawbacks and vulnerabilites. :( As for the lack of a champ, it's arguably why Daemons can field 4 HQs in a standard list. Attach the Herlads to the Letters. I agree DS is a balance, and that it's as much a blessing as a curse. But that's the one sided nature of facing Daemons. Either they DS well and win, or the Ds badly and lose. There's really no middle ground (as it's only First Turn DS that counts, everything else comes in off Icons).

 

Still in a Troop dominated 5th Edition, these guys rule. 5 Points cheaper than Berzerkers, Just slightly more expensive than a Tac Marine. 5th has changed so much, to make CC the most devestating aspect of the game, that if you don't have Stubborn and a large Invulnerable save, you cannot face these guys.

 

And if you spend time focusing on these, the Flamers and DPs fly in to make your life a misery. If you don't, S5/I5 Power Weapon attacks will end any Squad they charge.

 

SkullTaker

 

SkullTaker is up with the Avatar on the list of stupidly cheap for what they do units. ;) As for footslogging him, stick him with some Crushers. I took out SkullTaker and 4/5 Crushers with the Grey Knights (using the lovely Rites of Exorcism there, much better than Mystics/psycannons for combating Daemons! :D). It took me about over 700 points to do so. 20 PAGK, 'Counts as' Cullen and Vulkan He'Stan. Vulkan was the only one left alive at the end.

 

He was obscene when Rending was on to hit. Now he's just gross. Rending is fine, but 4+ Rending which also IDs whatever it hits. Add a Chariot to him (whichever one that doesn't make him lose IC status) and he's still cheaper than Magnus. -CHOP- -CHOP-

 

This guy is way to cheap in points. He can and routinely does, swing entire battles on his own.

 

I'd like to hear your views on Flamers and Deamon Princes of Nurgle as well though!

[Seahawk]

He can and routinely does, swing entire battles on his own.

This really depends on the army you're playing against. Sure, against MEQ armies he's a monster, cutting up expensive HQ's and infantry, but against IG? Orks? Tyranids? Eldar? His abilities are mostly wasted on these unit that either ignore ID or have lots of weeny opponents for him to eventually get through, if at all. Alternatively, throw a dreadnought at him and watch as he flubs the rest of the game. I've been very unimpressed with Skulltaker and his abilities, but then there are few marine players in my area and tons of Tau, Ork, IG, and Tyranids.

[Captain Malachi]

Agreed, at first glance Skulltaker's a beast, but in reality he's quite mediocre at best, what with there being so much eternal warrior around now.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

You take the much better route of leaving them as Psychic Powers, but you show the Daemons natural affinity for the warp by makign them either immune to Perils wounds, or not having make the roll in the first place.

 

But you leave the Powers as Powers. That way, you don't utterly invalidate armies wargear/defenses.

So you addressed the background of my argument and ignored the punch line which addresses this point exactly. Those anti-psychic abilities were created to counter armies that mix psychic powers & more conventional weapons/wargear (if you can really call them “conventional”). Having a 100% psychic army has no precedence in the game. You can create a whole new set of boons & banes to incorporate daemons as all psykers or just let them operate like every other army.

 

Sounds to me like they erred on the side of caution and have a much more streamlined & balanced army as a result.

 

Bloodletters

Sure, but they've got to have some drawbacks and vulnerabilites. :D As for the lack of a champ, it's arguably why Daemons can field 4 HQs in a standard list… Still in a Troop dominated 5th Edition, these guys rule.

Your point concerning Heralds is only partially true. So daemons can do what other armies can do by blowing HQ slots. The drawback there is obvious. Other armies can take uber HQ IC’s on top of the upgraded sergeant/champion/exarch, etc. etc. Not much of a compensation there.

 

I agree that Letters are really good troop choices but they hardly rule the game. 5th edition loves troops that are both effective and cheap. The Ork boy has emerged as an ideal candidate. Start totaling up everything they can do and then factor in that they are only 6 pts a piece. Now that has game ruling potential.

 

SkullTaker

SkullTaker is up with the Avatar on the list of stupidly cheap for what they do units…This guy is way to cheap in points. He can and routinely does, swing entire battles on his own.

I think the other posters have addressed this adequately. As stated, I don’t like getting too bogged down into point cost debates as they can go on endlessly. SkullTaker shines when he can get into close combat with units of multi-wound models and those with high toughness. If you put him with a squad of Crushers (arguably the best for him) he’s never better than foot slogging. Give him a chariot and he moves like cavalry (fleet + a 12” assault) which aint at all bad but he can be singled out by shooting attacks.

 

Also consider this, if you take ST then you’ve given up an HQ slot that could have been taken by a Monstrous Creature. Daemons lack anti-tank and MC’s are one of their only answers to this deficiency. Even if you take ST and he brings home a handful of skulls for the throne, big AV14 vehicles might be rolling over everything else in the army. As fun as he can be, his selection can’t be taken too lightly.

 

I'd like to hear your views on Flamers and Deamon Princes of Nurgle as well though!

Flamers are a 35 pts models with T4 & a 4+ save (INV or not). If you use them to attack into enemy lines they are almost guaranteed to be dead in the next shooting phase. Again, if you try to leverage BoC on the first turn you need to risk a close scatter to do so. A player with a bit more savvy will rely on the fact that they are jump infantry to slip in for an ideal kill as opposed to a one-hit wonder. Personally, I think Crushers are the better buy for your daemonic Elite slot.

 

Nurgle DP’s are just the best flavor of the mandatory Heavy Support, MC required to kill vehicles. DP + MoN + Flight + Iron Hide = 200 pts. Noxious touch & cloud of flies gets you up to 215. Yes, it’s overkill to reroll 2+ to wound but that’s an oddity of 5th edition 40K. Personally, I don’t get the poison rules at all. In the end, the services of the Nurgle DP are valuable and points are paid accordingly.

 

So I remain unwavering. As critical as I can be of GW game rules they took some risks with daemons to give them their own flavor w/o overdoing it. By no means perfect but not power/game changing like Dual Lash princes by a long shot.

 

-OMG

[Tom O'Bedlam]

I got through messing around with my 96 model 1750 pt army that all ignore armor saves. Hehe, it was funny actually...

 

1 Chariot of Khorne: Fury = 95

20 'Letters: Fury = 330

20 'Letters: Fury = 330

20 'Letters: Fury, Icon = 355

20 'Letters: Fury, Icon = 355

10 'Letters: Fury, Icon = 195

5 'Letters: Fury = 90

 

this is the sort of list that makes me turn down games against daemons. For me to want to play a game I have to be know one of three things, either it'll be a fun game win or lose, that even though I'll get spanked i'll learn from it, or that I've got at least a fair chance of winning.

 

Against this sort of list I won't have fun, there's almost no tactics involved so there's nothing to learn and my fair chance of winning is reliant on the daemon player screwing up his deep strike role.

 

I've found the most fun daemon game i've played was against a mono-tzeentch army though, which surprised me.

the most bent army I've seen is my friend's, he built his army just to take out when someone needs punishing. He claims its a Mono-Khorne army and it features bloodletters, a blood thirster and two packs of "flamers of khorne" :ph34r:

[Corpse.]

On the thought of AV14 vehicles, the few vehicles (outside of apoc) aside from walkers (not considering rending) a regular zerker charging can take down a leman russ punisher, stun it etc... Str5 on the charge rear armor 11, most vehicles come with rear 10's. (For those wo dont know, page 63 of the rulebook, under Armor penetration in Close Combat)

 

Its actually so that bloodletters without fury have more consistant anti tank charging then daemonettes for the majority of the enemy vehicles in the game! (and half the walkers, assuming pentient engines, scout sentinels, killa kans are all numerous in possibility).

 

Capable of hurting AV11, while daemonettes max is AV12. The daemonettes need a total of 6 hits to gurantee at the very least a glance on a 1 for the rend dice, and a 5 or 6 to glance Av12. Put fury on a bloodletter, and on the charge he can glance a land raider!

 

3 Powerfist attacks (charging) both attacker/defender at WS4, 1.5 hits, .75 of that is a result(.50 of that is a penetrate).

3 Furious Charge+Fury(rending) attacks at WS5 vs WS4, 2 hits, .33 of that is a result. (.22 of that is a penetrate).

So roughly 55% less effective then a powerfist, but the squad comes with Inv saves, lasting 1/3rd longer against a dreadnought, while marines fall over like paper (until the dreads DDCW's are removed). Also, fury strikes first being initiative 5 on the charge. Although being fearless, they cant be ran down but suffer perhaps 1 or 2 extra saves a turn.

Without charging, thats where it really falls through 1 less attack and str for a total of 2/1.32/.22result(.14pen) versus .34 or so ...

 

I would (must) disagree that fury is low par against walkers. Just try to get the charge, I sometimes ran three units of 5 flesh hounds each with a single fury just to chase down and take on walkers from afar, ensuring I actually get the charge with their speed. I now use screamers of tzeentch for the role. (needing 6's I know, but it seems to work better)

 

I have used a unit of bloodletters to disable/destroy a full squadron of leman russes on a charge, they died way too easily in fact. I was hoping to leave one alive to help me walk through all those craters with charging through the one I destroyed, hehe...

 

Using greater daemons is overrated for tank hunting since you charge what you shoot at, and since most prefer melta range (6") your practicly in charge distance already. I rather have 30 chances of hitting on 6's st5 vs AV10 then having two chances hitting on 3's vs whatever armor value+1D6 (unless its a land raider or walker).

30/5/1.2(.6 pen).. Emperor save them if they remained stationary or moved 6" or under without skimmer rules...

 

 

Same with berzerkers by the way... Except they got krak grenades and powerfists for walkers and raiders...

 

 

Edit:

Psychic tests are taken because of the perils of the warp, and the warp not wanting to connect to them to empower their ability. Why should the monsters that wound psykers that roll bad be hurt by their own kind using the same powers that make up their existence? Doesnt make sense, they are made from warp energy. They could just sacrifice a fingernail to shoot some warpfire if they really had to. They ARE the warp!

 

Re-edit:

Hah, Tom posted while I was editing..

That list sucks vs skimmer armies. It also fails against armies that have 50+ bolters that actually TRY to move within 12" when I arrive to rapid fire. 100 bolter shots, 66 hits, 33 wounds, there goes 22 bloodletters (and 1/3rd of the first wave, and 100% of the first wave if I rolled a 1 or 2 for the other wave results).

 

Just food for thought. It still falls under killable, and if you ride in lots of transports you block me hardcore with a line of transports. I gotta killem', (while you moved more then 6"), then you tank shock moving them around, try to hit them on 6's yet again... Its a pain in the.... (wont say it).

 

I know the drawbacks, and because I have lost a few games with that very list not making ONE SINGLE POINT IN KILLS, against players who use strategy with balanced armies (note I didnt say focussed). Its not a hard list to beat, I just want to get the core of the bloodletters and get them done and over with before collecting the other elements.

 

Against orks, it fails even harder. Power weapons account for little, and my guys die faster then marines, and if he picks to go first he gets WAAGH, making it impossible to avoid his charges unless I want to deep strike 18" away (typiclly 25" away because of scatter).

 

Its an easy armylist. Just gotta think harder.

[Ian Hockert]

I have also found a pretty strong amount of hate for my Daemons at my LGS, despite the fact that they are not a terribly powerful army in my opinion. I have found Skulltaker to be pretty darn useless all things told as most of my opponents field very few multi-wound models. I mean Space Marines will have at most two of said models and they are the most commonly played army in the game. Every game I've used Skulltaker in he's proven to just be an overpriced herald.

 

Personally, I wouldn't mind the Tzeentch powers becoming psychic in nature provided they gave Daemons access to sophisticated psychic defenses as well. I've watched my army get torn apart because some librarian shows up and casts null-zone so my already fragile units die like flies to anything that breathes on them. Not to mention the fact that a full mechanized army is exceedingly difficult for Daemons to deal with as it generally gets to engage us on its own terms.

 

The Daemon army is not that strong if people just learn the best ways to fight it.

[Tom O'Bedlam]

possibly. the problem is that with lists like this the player tends to just use them as a very simple meat hammer, which, when they roll well for deep strike is hard to counter. not to say that you're not a good tactical player, i've seen enough of your posts to know you know what you're on about. but like a 3 land raider list i'd just find it a bit dull

[Gentlemanloser]

This really depends on the army you're playing against. Sure, against MEQ armies he's a monster

 

Power Armoured board, so I was leaving my comparisons for MEQ armies. ;) The Guardman can go fish! :D

 

Having a 100% psychic army has no precedence in the game. You can create a whole new set of boons & banes to incorporate daemons as all psykers or just let them operate like every other army.

 

Soulgrinders can stay as conventional shooting. That the army doesn't have a lot of conventional shooting should be the down side for them being so utterly good in CC. Like the GK having limited Anti Tank.

 

There's no reason to break so much, of so many other Codexes, just to super boost the Daemons by letting them side step everyones Psychic Defenses.

 

Other armies can take uber HQ IC’s on top of the upgraded sergeant/champion/exarch, etc. etc. Not much of a compensation there.

 

So can the Dameons, in limitation. Take an Uber HQ (that is quite substanitally more uber than most) and still take a couple of Heralds for 'buffing' your Troops with.

 

Even if you take ST and he brings home a handful of skulls for the throne, big AV14 vehicles might be rolling over everything else in the army.

 

Sure. If you purposly ignore your Three heavy slots, quite addiquate enough to pop non Monolith AV14 (but hey, who can pop monoliths!). As for ST taking up a HQ slot, he's just given you access to another HQ to attach to one of your Squads. ;) Edit: and that's forgetting your flying Melta Bombs. They'll pop non Monolith AV14 Tanks foryou like butter. Especially those that don't move for a turn to fire all thier guns. ;)

 

If you use them to attack into enemy lines they are almost guaranteed to be dead in the next shooting phase. Again, if you try to leverage BoC on the first turn you need to risk a close scatter to do so. A player with a bit more savvy will rely on the fact that they are jump infantry to slip in for an ideal kill as opposed to a one-hit wonder. Personally, I think Crushers are the better buy for your daemonic Elite slot.

 

Of course. Using them correctly is strategy. You'll get no use out of a unit, however uber it is, if you don't use them correctly. You could always save them for your second wave, and DS them off a DPN Icon for precious placement.

 

Crushers are very good, far better than thier Terminator Counterparts (unless you're lucky enough to be able to run 3++ TH/SS termies...). But Flamers are more deadly, even if they are less durable. Horse for courses. ;) I still hate both.

 

By no means perfect but not power/game changing like Dual Lash princes by a long shot.

 

Maybe not, but still devistating unfun for MEQ armies to play versus. I've played versus a Daemon army most weeks since the Codex came out (or watched a mates 'nilla Marine play them). We're both sick to the back teeth of facing the army. You know if you've won or lost by the end of the first turn. After that, you're wasting time drawing out the forgone conclusion for either side.

 

There's no excitment, no anticipation. They either DS bad first turn and you win, or DS good and you lose.

 

Edit:

Psychic tests are taken because of the perils of the warp, and the warp not wanting to connect to them to empower their ability. Why should the monsters that wound psykers that roll bad be hurt by their own kind using the same powers that make up their existence? Doesnt make sense, they are made from warp energy. They could just sacrifice a fingernail to shoot some warpfire if they really had to. They ARE the warp!

 

For what seems like the umteenth time, then make them immune to Perils or the roll. But leave the Powers as Powers.

 

Breath of Choas already exists, it's fine as a Power.

 

But to face it, when you have *nothing* to defend against it, bar access to an Invulnerable save, is too much.

[Arnak'ra'Narok]

@Gentleman

 

Ohh now i see what your saying about daemon shooting, make them shooting attacks that can be blocked by psychic hoods and the like... thats it right? Coz thats not actually a bad idea, my flesh hounds usually munch psykers up in a turn or 2 anyway so i dont care ;)

 

@everyone

 

A Daemon army is an army that looks great on paper and with a little luck can shred up most armies they fight, especially when you first see guys like skulltaker and the fact that one of our basic troops has all PW and FC with a good stat line for CC. But then when you actually fight daemons its entirely different.... get lucky and you own. Roll badly and you have a serious uphill battle on your hands. But by no means does a very scatter army turn 1 mean you lose ;)

 

I dropped my first wave in once with skulltaker on his juggernaught and 4 bloodcrushers backing him up ended up completely alone and about 36" from an enemy... in a 1500 point game they only managed to take out about 1000 points worth of space marines along the course of the 3 hr game ;)

 

Dunno if that proves they are overpowered but hey by the time they bought down my boy skulltaker, there was a verry happy blood god somewhere ;)

 

Oh and after that game i actually negotiated with my regular opponents (like i said theres only 3 ppl who will fight me) to make skulltaker cost 200 points standard :D

 

Edit: And the reason for skulltaker being so uber, hes Khorne's Sacred Exocutioner, the daemon equivalent of Khârn the Betrayer so he has to kick everything's butt

[DuskRaider]

The thing is, people are crying about Daemons and don't take into account the other armies that are either out now or are going to be out soon. GW made the codex in order to be fun AND competitive, just seems like some people don't like the fact that they have to TRY to win. This isn't the old 4th Ed IG or Orks we're talking about. Truthfully, they're daemons, they're from the warp, they're the most dangerous thing in the 40k Universe ('Nids? No, there's a finite amount... that amount may be several trillion, but it's still finite).

 

So what if their "psyker" abilities are just normal shooting? If you're that worried about it, keep them out of range. For god sake, you're complaining about the shooting of an army that has a max distance of 24". If you want to cry about someone's ranged attacks, go complain to the Tau and their massed Rail Guns. Unlimited range, STR 10 AP 1.

 

I myself field Daemon armies with exclusively Khorne and Nurgle, and quite often I don't even take a Soul Grinder. Do I use Breath of Chaos? You bet I do. I need something to damage you while I sit in one place for a whole turn. Do I feel bad about it? No. If you can't figure out tactics to beat me, that's your own fault and if you're going to have hard feelings about it, you're either playing an army above your tactical abilities, or you're playing the wrong genre of gaming.

 

In my opinion, Dark Eldar are A LOT harder to deal with then Daemons, but do people complain about them? No. I've seen able armies get trounced by Turn 2 by Raider Rush DE. It's all in the game.

[Rahveel]

Gotta toss in with DuskRaider here. I’ve been playing 40k for over a decade, and ive seen a LOT of moaning about X or Y army-that-was-just-released being to powerful, because it introduced a new element to the game, and people had to change their tactics. I really do not understand why you think that Daemon shooting attacks should be powers, they aren't. superficially, the CSM power and Daemon shooting attack seem similar, but so to do the eldar power destructor, and a heavy flamer. should all heavy flamers be negatable by a hood/null rod/penitant Psyker? I should think not!

 

I hear what you are saying about the game being decided very quickly. my first 10 or so games with daemons, when my opponents and I had yet to fully feel them out, seemed to be decided quickly. later, when all parties had a better understanding of the daemon mechanics and capabilities, we began to feel that more options were open to us in terms of the defender surviving after a good deepstrike, or me recovering from an abysmal one. it required a big shift in some of their tactics and lists, but I see most of them using those lists now against most foes, as they do better in 5th than their old-style lists.

 

Adapt and evolve. Or die.

[Gentlemanloser]

Seriously, I've been playing an evolving Daemon army week on, week off since the Codex was released.

 

The army is competitive, GW have done a good job at that. But they aren't fun to face. That's why the hate. Play versus a Daemon army for any length of time and I'm sure you'll reach the same conclusion. Unless you're running a Daemon army as well.

 

So what if their "psyker" abilities are just normal shooting? If you're that worried about it, keep them out of range.

 

LoL. 12" Movment and DS off of Icons really puts paid to that idea....

 

But hey, I'm wrong, and all the hate you see for the army comes from bad players, who can't adapt to a new army.

 

/shrug

 

If you want to cry about someone's ranged attacks, go complain to the Tau and their massed Rail Guns. Unlimited range, STR 10 AP 1.

 

What you miss here, is Tau's amazing CC ability, to go with thier great Shooting attacks.

 

Oh wait, they don't have any...

[Arnak'ra'Narok]

If youre gonna start with the sarcasm on tau maybe you should really think about daemon shooting, it sucks only good 1 is breath of chaos and as the only time any body would really see that is on flamers i dont know what you're complaining about. Flamers are easy as too kill, just stay at least 8" away from em and they have to use warpfire which is less than stelar.

 

Ive played against daemons as SM, Nids and Tau, theyre actually really fun to play against if you throw your regular game plan out the window

 

Just wing it and not only will you more fun, but you'll become a better player and take a fair few daemons off the board in the process ^_^

[Emperor's Instrument]

The whole deepstriking aspect of Daemons is making look forward to actually completing the units I've got and putting them on the table.

 

It'll keep me on my toes I feel.

 

For the first couple of games playing against them I found it difficult because I had no idea what i was actually up against. Now though I find the majority of my games to be quite close and it's only Soulgrinders that give me any difficulty therefore they become a priority whilst tying the other Daemon units up.

 

Going against ST I've never had any issues as he's usually paired with a medium sized squad of Bloodletters which I FC my DC and Lemartes into and then smash them :wallbash:

 

A Baal pred, and a supporting Tac if needed, have taken care of Greater Daemons I just find that the dice Gods turn their backs on me when shooting at Soulgrinders.

 

Playing against them has made me want to play with them for the spontanaeous nature of deploying and also shown me how to/not to use them.

 

Only by playing against something difficult can we become better wargamers. Adapt and overcome I say :wink:

[Corpse.]

A... Note on horrors shooting... Compared to a cousin of similar, shooty ability.

 

For the sake of keeping pts costs hidden.

 

9 Horrors = 153 pts

6 Sonic Blaster Noise Marines = 150 pts

 

Horrors have 27 shots, 13.5 hits

Marines have 18 shots, 12 hits

 

One is AP4, the other is AP5 and has to stay still for full effect. One shoots the turn they arrive, the other has to suffer first turn sweat syndrome. One has access to a cheap str8 ap1 anti tank shot, that doesnt replace his warpfire, the other must pay 40 pts for a blast weapon that can scatter thats str8, ap3 for anti tank. Granted one is better in melee then the other... That doesnt change their main role.

 

If I were to say, use 70 horrors of tzeentch, 20:20:20:10 ratio, then have a couple cheap heralds both occupying HQ slots and one unit of screamers costing 49 pts for the unit. And I roll 3+ to use 70 to drop on one turn...

 

Thats 210 shots, 105 hits, and in the case of the tau thats 67 dead fire warriors. In the case of marines, thats 52.5 wounds translating into 17.5 marines dead the turn they arrive. The big issue is deep strike chances of that 1 or 2 using the other "half" of the army. Second issue is deep strike, but mostly you get first shots with the unit. Able to eliminate 17 marines inside of 1500 point force (yes really, 17 dead marines in 1500 pts that could be 1/3rd of the enemy dead in one slap!).

 

Though, if you were facing imperial guard, they would jus suffer 5 dead squads.

 

Its fun while it lasts though, they suck in melee just like tau. (with inv saves and fearless, heh)

[Rahveel]

see, I think you fail to take some key factors into account there.

 

1) out of the 70 horrors, only half are likely to start on the table (no way to fit them all in one wave), this is one of the daemon army's weakness, it is very difficult to bring the entire weight of your army down on one point. you are also taking the vagaries of deepstrikeing a bit lightly..

 

2)in a game of 1500 points, you're talking about nearly 1200 points of horrors. they should kill 17 marines. then die for not taking enough heralds/princes/grinders/flamers/ect...

 

3) there is no way to effectively compare weapons of different races (save possibly SM to CSM). I feel that the entire comparison between horrors and noise marines (or firewarriors) is baseless. 2 different armies, 2 different units that fill 2 different roles in 2 different strategies, with a myriad of different units to support them.

 

 

vent over...

[Chaos_Minds]

I think the problem is that when the codex was first released, some people found the strongest list they could make and started playing. Word got around that the list is really strong before the fun lists could start showing up. And by fun lists, I mean the first lists that are written. The ones where people don't know what to take and are experimenting. When the fun lists did show up, everybody was already in the mindset that Daemons are overpowered and refused to change said mindset.

 

The problem is that other armies never really got a chance to adapt to the new rules and units before facing the uber lists.

[Spaakl Daakli]

I put it down to the fact that Daemons just plain play differently. My experience is that all gamers - regardless of the actual game - tend to get set very easily in to playing styles & subsequently, routines, and that anything which forces them to adapt or play somewhat differently to that norm is resented & labelled a scheesy/ beardy/ whatever.

 

Especially Tzeentch daemons.

 

But as Popeye the Sailor Man sez: "I yam wots I yam, and that's wots I yam!"