Legion, did it spoil the end of 40K?

[Luc O' Luck]

I carnt help feeling like it spoiled the ending of 40k for me just a bit, what with the whole seeing how chaos and the imperium was going to be destroyed. Makes you realise your on the loosing side ya know. Any one else feel that way?

 

Welcome to how the Imperial players feel about every single piece of fluff out there. Seriously, every other tale is about how the Imperium is doomed, how the Emperor is doomed, how mankind is doomed, how the Tyranids will consume the Imperium, how the Eldar will collapse the Imperium, how the Orks will over run the Imperium, how Chaos will over throw the Imperium, how the Tau will absorb the Imperium, how the Necrons will seal off the warp, killing the Imperium by after affect, how the Squats will come back and kick the Imperium in the shins.

 

In the shins!

 

Seriously, welcome to 40k fluff, it's gritty, dark and pointless.

[Olgerth Istaarn]

"Why would they give a power ring to someone named SINESTRO?!"

 

Seriously, no benevolent group of Universe's little helpers would call itself the Cabal. That should have been Alpharius' first hint.

 

Second, they are foul xenos. With mental powers and questionable agendas. Trusting anything they "project" was the direct result of A/O's arrogance. After all, he is the master of subtle manipulation, Mr. Two for the Price of One, and all that jazz. In his mind(s), Cabal could never fool him with a complex and convincing telepathic image. If he feels it's the truth, then it's got to be the truth, right?

 

Third and final, both outcomes included inevitable doom for the human race. Doom by Horus or doom by end of existence. Doom by Horus was avertable. This is 40K we're talking about, not Star Trek - hence, who gives a rat's ass about survival of a universe populated by aliens? Had Alpharius not turned into an obedient puppet in Cabal's thrall, he could've gone a long way towards reducing the impact, or perhaps altogether averting the Heresy - which ultimately tore the heart and soul out of the Imperium and made it easier pickings for the xenos.

 

Bottom line is, what the Cabal showed weren't the two "only" endgames, they were two "possible" endgames. The future is hopeless, dirty, bloody and uncertain, but it is by no means yet written.

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

I agree that it would seem, given the time between the Heresy and the current "time" in 40k that it's not cut and dried. I don't agree, however, that "the Edlar are reknowned liars". I believe someone (late70s, early 80s, in a galaxy far, far away) stated that "the truth depends greatly upon your own point of view". They tell the truth as you see it. This Cabal Eldar could have left his craftworld due to his belief that humanity had a bigger part to play in "saving" the galaxy, however he sees that as being. Maybe he feels that humainty has a bigger part to play in aiding the regrowth of the Eldar, maybe he sees a greater possibility of an Eldar/Imperial alliance, should the Imperium "grow up" from it's childish ways as the Eldar see it as a whole, and that actually, by leaving his craftworld, he gives himself a chance of nudging the Imperium, through mild coersion to develop it's ideas and it's philosophies that will allow other craftworlds and other Eldar leaders to see this as being a more helpful way of enlightening the galaxy from the ideas of Chaos, the Ork "infection" and the other threats such as the Tyranids or the somewhat "dumbass" (maybe naive is a better word) Tau (don't believe in the Warp... how do they travel!? Sublight power only?! That's like cycling round the world. You could do it... eventually, but you'd probably die first!).

 

In short, the book as a whole does not seem to have ruined 40k for most of us due to it's constant "theorising" and added questions this brought up rather than answering them. It seems more like season 2 of Lost than the season 5 that most of the books have been...

[Brother Hadafix]

I rather liked Legion, it answered a few questions and asked new ones at the same time. Very philosophical to, the way the Alphas seem to view things in the book.

 

I hope they do some kind of squeal, as that should open things up further.

[incinerator950]

I hope i don't read it, in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, there is no plot advancement.

[Dammeron]

The events detailed in Legion are open to a wide variety of interpretations:

In one instance, the claims of the Cabal could be taken as literal propechies in which instance, the 40K universe is doomed; Chaos has won be default. However, it is also entirely possible that the Cabal were lying or being manipulated by some higher power (bear in mind, Tzeentch is the lord and source of all fore-sight, and a habitual manipulator), in which instance everything they do and say must be treated with utmost suspicion.

[CountFenring]

Hello to all,

 

New guy, glad to be here.

 

Excellent topic. I am sure some of you remember the cabal showing up before in the Inquisition trilogy books and sending Inquisitor Draco on this spiralling quest into insanity. Poor Inquisitor could not take any more of the truth at the end.

 

I will have to re-read the whole trilogy now in light of "Legion". Both the Cabal and the Hydra were mentioned in the Trilogy come to think of it.

 

Having read both books, I can easily see that the bible thumpers of the ecclesiarchy (sp?) most certainly created the golden throne as a containment device to keep the Emperor out of the physical realm. Keep his flesh in stasis so his naturally awesome self-repair ability can't do its work. Keep him bound with the help of 1k psychers a day.

 

Now hold on, hear me out. Remember Inquisitor Draco's terrifying conversation with the Emperor whilst he was in the golden throne room. The Emperor was trying his hardest to form coherent messages and explain his situation. I remember at that point it became clear to me that the Empire wants to keep the status quo. Further, allowing the Emperor to reclaim his footing back in the Empire would see the end of the Empire as it is in the 41st millenium. We all know the Emperor did not have anything to do with god botherers. The Emperor would simply destroy the corrupt, disgusting Empire, especially as it is now.

 

I really do think the Alpha Legion is working hard to try to ensure the Empire fails at this point. They and the cabal know the score. They know how filthy and warped the empire is and they have known it since the beginning. The empire did the opposite of what the Emperor was working toward as you all know.

 

Tzeentch, smeentch. If he was worth anything, he would have subdued his chaos god buddies already, but he can't. He is not all that. If he was he would have "changed" Khorne of his blood drinking habit just to spite him.

 

Here is some thing to consider:

 

1. Mechanicum (heresy book) showed us the Emperor fighting/beating the powerful star god the "Dragon" and stuffing him in Mars later. So the Emperor has either lived since dawn of man, can travel time, or...wait for it...

 

**He is an old one**

 

We already know from published data that humans are products of the old ones and much to the dislike of the failed Eldar.

 

What is so wrong about Humanity's creator taking an interest in its guidance?

For the future of sentient races...something to discuss.

 

2. We know that the Cabal tried to recruit Inquisitor Draco and aided him in his infiltration of the Imperial Palace to help him discern the truth. (my take)

 

*Someone mentioned that the Alpha Legion has failed since it has been 10k years. What if the Legion is planning in time scales longer than that?

What if they are planning on the time scales of 100's of thousands of years..who knows. They are exceptional and not at all like any other Legion.

 

*Someone else mentioned the Alpha Legion splitting into two factions. I have never read that anywhere...not a schism of at all. But broke themselves up into many cells following the hydra methodology to continue the work independant of each other. If there is a source on that (splitting in two, but I doubt it) please let me know thx.

 

I look at the book Legion as just a beginning of the excellent journey of the Alpha Legion. They are hard to write well I think. They are just too...perfectly fluid and intangible maybe. Just too hard to write about without short changing them.

 

The Legion book incorporates an interesting twist I think. Not spoiled anything. Chaos is too terribly predictable and boring, at least this is a Legion that is different. I feel the Legion would use chaos without a second thought and fully know the consequences of their actions. Everything they do is well thought out and truly "TOTAL". They utilize all tools at their disposal. I could even see having them work a champion into becoming a demon prince simply to garner another useful tool.

 

For me the Alpha Legion breath good ideas and new life into a rather boring and stagnant background.

 

Yes I know GW wants change least of all, but they have to do something about this terrible method they use about telling stories in safe little circles to keep people buying models.

 

Alpha Legion, for the first time since early 3rd edition, I actually feel a desire to start up chaos. lol

[incinerator950]

No, Tzeentch IS all that, he chooses not to because if he became eternally victorious, he would cease to exist. He can't have a master plot to fullfill or the greatest, single destiny to unravel, because it would remove him, he spends more time doing little webs of deceit and plot, because he's Eternity and existance's greatest Troll. Power in Deceit takes time, where as Khorne simply smashing it's :cussing brain out with a rock gets the point out faster, which is why he's the premier dominant Chaos God of the 4.

 

The Alpha Legion, from all work posted, is divided on the matter. The new hydra matter did split the Legion, into random sects of whatever they're following. Some are following this Cabal method, others are Devout Chaos Worshippers, others are Pirates.

 

Chaos is just as boring as the mainstream of 40k, it doesn't go anywhere except crawl spaces because GW won't advance the plot. They won't change it, because it's a business, and won't kill the line until 40k finally dies out from lack of popularity.

 

This is coming from a follower of Nurgle, Lord of stagnant stuff.

[CountFenring]

No, Tzeentch IS all that, he chooses not to because if he became eternally victorious, he would cease to exist. He can't have a master plot to fullfill or the greatest, single destiny to unravel, because it would remove him, he spends more time doing little webs of deceit and plot, because he's Eternity and existance's greatest Troll. Power in Deceit takes time, where as Khorne simply smashing it's :cussing brain out with a rock gets the point out faster, which is why he's the premier dominant Chaos God of the 4.

 

The Alpha Legion, from all work posted, is divided on the matter. The new hydra matter did split the Legion, into random sects of whatever they're following. Some are following this Cabal method, others are Devout Chaos Worshippers, others are Pirates.

 

Chaos is just as boring as the mainstream of 40k, it doesn't go anywhere except crawl spaces because GW won't advance the plot. They won't change it, because it's a business, and won't kill the line until 40k finally dies out from lack of popularity.

 

This is coming from a follower of Nurgle, Lord of stagnant stuff.

 

Good information

 

What is your source that says the Alpha Legion is divided on the matter?. I have an extensive library and if I am missing something, I will track it down with your help. You say "from all work posted". That is not correct, not by a wide margin. I am sure some things might be open to interpretation, but again, I would like to know your source as I am a fluff psycho.

 

Thanks mate

[incinerator950]

No, Tzeentch IS all that, he chooses not to because if he became eternally victorious, he would cease to exist. He can't have a master plot to fullfill or the greatest, single destiny to unravel, because it would remove him, he spends more time doing little webs of deceit and plot, because he's Eternity and existance's greatest Troll. Power in Deceit takes time, where as Khorne simply smashing it's :cussing brain out with a rock gets the point out faster, which is why he's the premier dominant Chaos God of the 4.

 

The Alpha Legion, from all work posted, is divided on the matter. The new hydra matter did split the Legion, into random sects of whatever they're following. Some are following this Cabal method, others are Devout Chaos Worshippers, others are Pirates.

 

Chaos is just as boring as the mainstream of 40k, it doesn't go anywhere except crawl spaces because GW won't advance the plot. They won't change it, because it's a business, and won't kill the line until 40k finally dies out from lack of popularity.

 

This is coming from a follower of Nurgle, Lord of stagnant stuff.

 

Good information

 

What is your source that says the Alpha Legion is divided on the matter?. I have an extensive library and if I am missing something, I will track it down with your help. You say "from all work posted". That is not correct, not by a wide margin. I am sure some things might be open to interpretation, but again, I would like to know your source as I am a fluff psycho.

 

Thanks mate

 

It was interpretation from what I've gathered, I stopped viewing most of the novels as cannon, as I can't stand mary sue space marines.

[Sköll Khan]

For a good interpretation of how fate works see "Ravenor Returned", the future is not certain,

some outcomes are more likely than others

and exerting certain influences can change the probability of something occurring...

 

...turning Alpharius would have effected the future in some way.

 

The Cabal are likely working towards an outcome that benefits them,

(if humanity continues on the Great Crusade they get wiped out)

 

...and further, bearing in mind that the knowledge on which all predictions are based comes from the warp

means that certain things may be hidden, any truths may be wrapped in lies or misenterpreted, and benefit only Chaos.

[Lay]

What is your source that says the Alpha Legion is divided on the matter?. I have an extensive library and if I am missing something, I will track it down with your help. You say "from all work posted". That is not correct, not by a wide margin. I am sure some things might be open to interpretation, but again, I would like to know your source as I am a fluff psycho.

This might interest you then: link

 

From what I've read so far, the Alpha Legion appear to be generic Chaos followers - mostly because the majority of their fluff has been published before Legion, and GW/BL have yet to publish something that picks up one of the threads at the end of the book and tie it to their background. On its own, Legion says nothing concrete about the AL during and after the Heresy, only possibilities.

[CountFenring]

Lay, that is well done work. Thank you for posting this up.

 

That is a decent time line and most certainly shows the Legions unity of purpose right up to current times.

 

Had a few bits in there I had missed too.

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

Ok, now finished Legion and loved it. Only book that compares in the HH series so far is Descent of Angels. But as to the topic...

 

I don't think it does ruin the end of 40K or such as it is very wooly still in my eyes. My reasons are thusly... (forgive the use of "thusly", I've had too much sugar again...)

 

We knew nothing, severely nothing, of the Alpha Legion until the recent developments from this book and such. They were always just "the 20th legion, of which very little is known due to their secrecy". Nothing was really known till probably codex 3.5 (dark gods bless it in hope parts of it return!) about them as a chapter, how to play them etc. They were one of those parts that just seemed as if GW needed to write something of a 20th chapter but as they couldn't think of anything, they just put in the "very little is known etc" line to avoid missing a printing deadline.

 

NOW... now we have fluff. Some reasonably good fluff with many twists, turns and interpretations. Now, in my eyes, they are a very interesting choice. much more so than before.

 

As to ruining the end of 40k, nope. These things, as ever, are a as open as a pub at happy hour. GW won't END 40k as it's a cash cow. As for how it could come to an end, not really. I'm more interested in finding out more of what is to come from this Inquisitor fella and all that deal. I wanna know more of this and am now intregued as to which books this is in. This to me, sounds like more of an interesting, possible sub plot.

 

The more interesting end, for me, would be that the High Council of Terra run out of psychers to sacrifice to keep the Emperor in the Throne. What if he then can start to regenerate? What would he make of what became of his Imperium in his absence? What if the Cabal were to take these matters into their own hands and start rounding up psychers to sacrifice to get him out of the Throne and make things "better" as he may now see the errors of his ways from 10,000 years ago. NOW there is an interesting ending. Emperor returns to destroy all he once built. I feel that could be closer to the mark than just the Human race, spread across the galaxy, just dying out.

[incinerator950]

I feel that the Lords of Terra and the Inquisition are using the Emperor as a puppet to keep control over a corrupt Imperium. He hasn't been allowed to die and come back because they're using him as a symbol to rule over the ignorant masses.

 

I also for some reason have some distaste to the fluff now circling the AL

[Grand Master Tyrak]

The more interesting end, for me, would be that the High Council of Terra run out of psychers to sacrifice to keep the Emperor in the Throne. What if he then can start to regenerate?

 

I suspect being fed psykers is consistent with the manner of his birth, the sacrifice of all human Shamans. Enduring a similar process would fuel his physical life-force in the same way that he was created. Whether allowing him to die would enable him to ascend to the warp or to godhood is another matter though.

 

I feel that the Lords of Terra and the Inquisition are using the Emperor as a puppet to keep control over a corrupt Imperium.

 

I can fault that immediately, since the High Lords and the Inquisition are not united bodies in any sense of the word. The Inquisitorial factions constantly bicker, combining with the duty of every Inquisitor to watch everyone else, and the High Lords too suffer from factionalism, only truly uniting in the face of threats such as the Hive Fleets and Black Crusades. That does not rule out such a conspiracy, but it does rule out a mass conspiracy - they are simply too disunited.

[IronFather_Midel]

I'm under the impression that Alpharius continued/continues to be Loyal. Alpha Legions main asset is deception. I think they've been playing Horus and Abbadon from the very beginning b/c the Emperor would have foreseen the Heresy. I guess he actually didn't see it b/c it would have been like a black cloud forbidding him to look into the future. Hence forth, the Emperor would have put the twins into play wih one having to sacrifice himself to maintain the cover-up!

 

As for the ending of 40k... yeah, they have began to set it up for one last Crusade by Abbadon: here's what I've seen

• Additions to Eldar ( ok it's only Harlequins but it raised interest in the snobby bastards)
  
• 5th Edition (3 years after 4th?)
  
• Daemons codex (did they really need to let players field a daemon army?)
  
• C.Marines codex (again, about 4 years after the last)
  
• S.Marines codex ( see above)
  
• IG codex (much needed)
  
• Additional super-heavies and transports on the table!
  
• Apocalypse and Planetstrike rulesets (BIG battles[as in a Cruade?])
  
• And maybe Space Hulk!!!
  
• And now you have Forgeworld pumping out more mini's in the last 2 years then ever before
  

My guess is that in the next 5-6 years all of the races will get a new codex, including the supposed addition of a new race, this will give players more then enough time fighting under Apocalypse and Planetstrike, then we'll see a final Black Crusade before a new age in 40k begins, I'd say by 2015

 

 

Throne help us, let my speculations be wrong that 40k comes to a final battle. Or that new novels even hint at such a thing...

[IronFather_Midel]

The more interesting end, for me, would be that the High Council of Terra run out of psychers to sacrifice to keep the Emperor in the Throne. What if he then can start to regenerate? What would he make of what became of his Imperium in his absence? What if the Cabal were to take these matters into their own hands and start rounding up psychers to sacrifice to get him out of the Throne and make things "better" as he may now see the errors of his ways from 10,000 years ago. NOW there is an interesting ending. Emperor returns to destroy all he once built. I feel that could be closer to the mark than just the Human race, spread across the galaxy, just dying out.

 

You're right on with the Cabal: the Eldar bastards know what could happen if the Emperor actually perishes, a new all powerful Chaos god would rise b/c the human soul represents the entire Pantheon of Chaos;

Physical corruption and resilience of Nurgle, Power-lust weakness of Slaanesh, Warmongering hate of Khorne, and Ever-changing deceitful psyker of Tzeentch.

If the Emperor falls Chaos wins without another shot even being fired. Eldar don't want to see that happen to another race or this universe.

So in ending, yes, the Emperor will rise... but mostly b/c guys like me would happily be willing to spend over $50 for his mini

[Unguis Raptus]

A question if I may, but first an understanding...

 

I've read very little of the fluff outside of anything that really relates to my Night Lords. I did however glance over a friends Eldar codex just the other day and read about the Harlequins (in truth hoping to find a weakness I could exploit in the game to follow). My somewhat basic understanding of their beliefs is that by giving their souls to the Laughing god they make him stronger, with the ultimate goal behind this being to give him enougth strength to deafeat Slaanesh.

 

This got me thinking, well thats all well and good but what will destroying 1 of 4 gods do, I mean you still got 3 left. Now again I'm a Night Lords player so my understanding of the Chaos gods is better than my understanding of the Eldar but still not top nosh. Anyway I digress, the 4 gods form an equlibrium with each other do they not, either each cannot exist without the other or surely those that remain would ultimatley expend themselves fighting over the remains of Slaanesh, the souls of his followers and his domain.

 

One thing that I do know, and that lets be honest any 40K player knows is that the birth of the Imperium coincided with the Fall of the Eldar, this happend when the Eldars accumulation of emotions created Slaanesh, the turbulent Warp was calmed when this happend (CSM Codex 4thed), this in turn allowed warp travel for the emperor and the Great Crusade and so on.

 

My question is this, who, if anyone is truly great enough to lead the Imperium against, what many believe will be the last Black Crusade?

 

and I mean primarch good here, you know, not yer run of the mill chapter master.

 

As far as I know... no-one

 

Ultimatley the Imperium has no way to defeat, what is technically the shadow of itself, only a god could, and forgive me but I do not see the Emperor as a god, he was defeated by a mortal, god 101 is that you can only be defeated by another god hence the harlequins plan.

 

This is what got the new Eldar god idea in my head when I was thinking about the future of 40K, the new rulebook names the Age of the Imperium and states that it's coming to a close, could this not be the answer, that in order for any form of the Imperium to survive it must be replaced, like the Eldar before it, a cycle. Chaos would still exist but in a much weakend state (explains the new codex anyway). The Imperium would be fractured, limited warp travel if any, the Eldar would still be to few to re-inherit the galaxy.

 

Could GW not be opening the galaxy up to whoever wants it, think about it, Chaos would be weakend, Imperium fractured, Eldar to few, Tau to young, Necrons mostly still asleep, Tyranids still 'are we there yet?', Orks... well Orks?

 

Anyway... I rambled, I was bored, forgive, and shoot down.

[incinerator950]

Correct me if Im wrong but the new Eldar god would be born at the Death of Most, if not all the remaining Eldar. Ynead or something.

 

Hopefully we'll get somewhere in this new Crusade, and break the stagnation of 40k

[IronFather_Midel]

Anyway... I rambled, I was bored, forgive, and shoot down.

We all want to know our place in the 40k universe and each one of us wants to believe that they're fighting for the winning team. Seeing as

NOT ONE

of us here is the almighty proctor of Warhammer 40,000 history or future, we can only speculate and make logical estimations based on history of the game.

As for our great Emperor

dictionary.com states:

 

god (gŏd) n. God

• A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
  
• The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
  
• A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
  
• An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
  
• One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed
  
• A very handsome man.
  
• A powerful ruler or despot.
  

em·per·or (ěm'pər-ər) n.

• The male ruler of an empire.
  

I strongly suggest the Lexicanum as a reference point for fluff...

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor

I believe (elbows and @$$holes, kids, this is my opinion) the reason The Emperor allowed himself to "die" was b/c he may have been ready to transform into something more. But, in the ignorance of Mankind, they were unwilling to let him die.

Now reportedly there are Primarch unaccounted for: Leman Russ, Lion El'Jonson, Guilliman is said to be healing, Ferrus was unaccounted for until the novel 'Fulgrim', Vulkan, Corax and after 'Legion' the remaining Alpharius twin may be Loyal. Not to mention the 2 unknown Primarch. So, if the Daemon Primarchs unite with Abaddon for a final Black Crusade it'll be one hell of a fight!

As for your friend's Eldar: I see it as their sole purpose to do all they can to destroy Slaanesh along with the other Chaos Gods since they brought about The Eye of Terror and opened Warp to the real world. If it takes the creation of another Eldar god, formed from the souls of their own dead or the death of their race, so be it.

Don't forget about the C'Tan and The Old Ones! Tyranids and Orks are like the thunder and rain and may possibly be the last ones standing in the final battle.

But after all is said and done, this is why Citadel has been giving us such high powered aresenal to use on the table,

it would take the destruction of most of the known WH40k universe to run a final battle.

Giving them ample reason to restart the game from scratch

[IronFather_Midel]

Having read both books, I can easily see that the bible thumpers of the ecclesiarchy (sp?) most certainly created the golden throne as a containment device to keep the Emperor out of the physical realm. Keep his flesh in stasis so his naturally awesome self-repair ability can't do its work. Keep him bound with the help of 1k psychers a day.

 

 

Alpha Legion, for the first time since early 3rd edition, I actually feel a desire to start up chaos. lol

 

thank you for the wise post

I was under the impression the Golden Throne was created by The Emperor as means to gain access to the Eldar's Webway

Alpha Legion has made Chaos very appealing for me as well

[IronFather_Midel]

It was interpretation from what I've gathered, I stopped viewing most of the novels as cannon, as I can't stand mary sue space marines.

seriously, i see the novels as an "oops, we want to change history for our liking because the guy that wrote some of the previous fluff doesn't work here anymore!"

[IronFather_Midel]

I don't agree... that "the Edlar are reknowned liars"

but they are none acting, vain and motivated by fear. In 'Fulgrim', Eldrad Ulthuan tried to warn Fulgrim of Horus' future actions. Being a Farseer, he should have desroyed Fulgrim where he stood for what the Primarch was to become. Their vanity brought about Slaanesh, and in fear, they're using the souls of their dead as a weapon against Chaos... that's pretty messed up.

Don't get me wrong, there's not many things about Eldar that i dislike (that's a whole 'nother topic) I like the abilities, history of Eldar, that was my first army, but the novels make them look like douche bags. At least Dark Eldar are out to just kill everything!

[IronFather_Midel]

This might interest you then: link

 

I've been following Warhammer 40k since '95 and not many have been able to impress me with their collection, knowledge and presentation of 40k history as you've done. good job!