Legion, did it spoil the end of 40K?

[incinerator950]

It was interpretation from what I've gathered, I stopped viewing most of the novels as cannon, as I can't stand mary sue space marines.

seriously, i see the novels as an "oops, we want to change history for our liking because the guy that wrote some of the previous fluff doesn't work here anymore!"

 

Exactly

 

and now after getting more ideas, Im starting to slowly accept the Alpha Legion again. even as a Nurgle follower, I still think the stagnation of the Imperium should be cast down.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

I really, really, really enjoyed Legion. I'd say it rivals the first three Heresy novels for my favorite amongst the Heresy novels so far; the writing style was pretty unique, even for Abnett, and the book is forcing me to consider picking up an Alpha Legion army in the future. They're the only Chaos army I would consider playing.

[Lady_Mournival]

Yeah I sympathise with the Grand Admiral there.

I'm an Alpha Legion player and have been for a long time. I really enjoyed the book (and the heavy Imperial Army slant too) but when it got towards the end I started to feel very anxious about how alot of people were going to react. And sadly my worst fears were realised; The Schism. Two Alpha Legion factions emerged : Those that have the Legion as fallen like the other traitors, and those that see the Legion as some form of hugely misunderstood anti heros, still fighting the Great Crusade,noblely sacrificing themselves to stay true to the Emperor dispite the slings and arrows of all other factions.

For some reason I can't quite put my finger on, the latter faction seems to be mid-late teenage boys.

 

After over a year of having this debate on the internet and in my local GW store, I've stoped joining in (most of the time) and instead curse the name of Abnett The Discord-Bringer and storm out for another cigarette.

 

I hate to say it but, legion made me love Alpha Legion; I mean the whole thing about them just joining Horus cuz they were youngest and they felt scorned kind've felt like Angron/Lorgar to me; I've seen it way to many times. This stuff in Legion is all DA accept where the ratio is the otherway; where most of the legion is chaos and only a small proportion is loyalist, where they've lost 1/2 their primarch and for all we know Omegon might just have turned to chaos but also could still be loyalist; either way one side of the legion loses a parent-like figure.

[Lay]

I mean the whole thing about them just joining Horus cuz they were youngest and they felt scorned kind've felt like Angron/Lorgar to me; I've seen it way to many times.

Alpharius may have been unappreciated, but that wasn't the original reason why his Legion fell. Originally Horus, whose leadership in the front lines appealed to the ALs martial pride, made the Emperor look like a distant ruler who exploited the conquests of others. Once they were swayed to his side they sought to prove themselves against the most challenging and worthiest opponents: other Astartes.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

I'm an Alpha Legion player and have been for a long time. I really enjoyed the book (and the heavy Imperial Army slant too) but when it got towards the end I started to feel very anxious about how alot of people were going to react. And sadly my worst fears were realised; The Schism. Two Alpha Legion factions emerged : Those that have the Legion as fallen like the other traitors, and those that see the Legion as some form of hugely misunderstood anti heros, still fighting the Great Crusade,noblely sacrificing themselves to stay true to the Emperor dispite the slings and arrows of all other factions.

For some reason I can't quite put my finger on, the latter faction seems to be mid-late teenage boys.

 

Now I can understand why many Alpha Legion players would be miffed with the fluff retcon that Abnett/GW has instituted for the AL; you got into the AL because they're Chaos, having the possibility that some/all of them are still 'loyal' to the Emperor is probably a bigger upset than not being able to use your cultists in 5th edition tourney games.

 

Saying that the opposing side of the debate, however, are mostly made up of teenagers is an underhanded way of discrediting their opinions. It also probably isn't true. None of the Chaos factions ever appealed to me, but Legion made me consider the Alpha Legion. Not because they're possibly 'good guys' (there's a very tiny chance for that, by the way), but because they have a tragic story that appealed to me. True, all of the traitor legions fell for one reason or another, but the Alpha Legion went against the Imperium for their Emperor. They're pragmatists, that's one of their most appealing traits.

 

They wanted to destroy the Imperium and sacrifice mankind so that the rest of the galaxy would be spared. They knew that the Emperor would want mankind wiped out rather than fall entirely to Chaos. What they did, they did for the Emperor. Here's where it comes to the opinion part.

What they do now, as a renegade legion, they do for the Emperor. They fight to extinguish the failing light that is the Imperium, to prevent Chaos from corrupting it wholly.

 

Or, maybe they all fell to corruption when Alpharius was killed.

Or maybe Alpharius wasn't killed, maybe it was Omegon impersonating him.

Or maybe it wasn't either Primarch; perhaps it was just another captain impersonating him.

Maybe Alpharius/Omegon is dead, but the Legion stayed true to their cause.

 

The fun thing with the Alpha Legion is that any of these could be true, or none of them. Now, I don't agree that the Alpha Legion could still be Imperium-material. I don't think that they're working from the inside to HELP the Imperium... but that could be a valid viewpoint.

Don't just discount it by saying that they're teenagers, just kids who don't know a good story from a bad one and who are just picking up AL because it's cool to be an anti-hero.

 

Oh, er. That was long. Heh.

[IronFather_Midel]

They wanted to destroy the Imperium and sacrifice mankind so that the rest of the galaxy would be spared. They knew that the Emperor would want mankind wiped out rather than fall entirely to Chaos. What they did, they did for the Emperor. Here's where it comes to the opinion part.

What they do now, as a renegade legion, they do for the Emperor. They fight to extinguish the failing light that is the Imperium, to prevent Chaos from corrupting it wholly.

 

Or, maybe they all fell to corruption when Alpharius was killed.

Or maybe Alpharius wasn't killed, maybe it was Omegon impersonating him.

Or maybe it wasn't either Primarch; perhaps it was just another captain impersonating him.

Maybe Alpharius/Omegon is dead, but the Legion stayed true to their cause.

 

that is one of the best observations i've heard in a while! i liked AL on the fact they are traitors, but aren't Chaos worshippers. and the fact that they were twins is awesome

[incinerator950]

I don't want to spark an argument that Alpha Legion are Chaos worshippers, but because the fluff is left quite open and blank, and the fact that I prefer the tragedy of the Thousand sons over this load of crap as tragedy, but whatever.

[Senseilord Ashahara]

See, this is what happens when you leave a debate for awhile to simultaniously praise and curse Abnett The Discord-Bringer.

 

ok:

CountFering

"Someone else mentioned the Alpha Legion splitting into two factions. I have never read that anywhere...not a schism of at all. But broke themselves up into many cells following the hydra methodology to continue the work independant of each other. If there is a source on that (splitting in two, but I doubt it) please let me know thx."

 

To clarify: the Schism is not a GW fluff thing; it's a real world, toy soldier player thing - the split between Alpha Legion players into Loyalist and Traitor camps.

 

igotsmeakabob

 

"Saying that the opposing side of the debate, however, are mostly made up of teenagers is an underhanded way of discrediting their opinions."

 

It's is. You're quite right. I got busted constructing a Straw Man. On the other hand:

 

"It also probably isn't true."

 

In my experiance of the debate in the real world (insomuch as a Games Workshop on a Wednesday night represents the 'real world' ) the main proponentes of the Loyalist faction I have come across and engaged (rather than sparking up and kicking a wall) have been at the younger end of the spectrum. I'm not sure if this is something to do with taking the book too literally, or the joy of the total Anti Hero or some other psycholgical factor I can't put my finger on.

I'm not trying to claim some geek hierarchy thing here, honest. I mean, I'm a 25 year old man, married with a child, who's now awake , on a day off, at 9 in the morning, getting quite passionate about someone's interpretation of a work of fiction about little men I play with. I really should be more mature than that by now.

 

I also feel the need to point out that I dearly love Legion. It's a top novel. I like the philosphy of indipendance of thought and action shown by the Legionarres, I like their pragmatic nature, I like the twists and turns, I love the Imperial Army and Grammaticus sub plots. And I also love that with the ammount of smoke and chaff deliberatly thrown up by The Discord-Bringer, it's impossible to definately enterpret the motivation and actions of the vast majority of the charactors.

Should I ever be lucky enough to meet Mr Abnett I'll feel obliged to punch him in the head and buy him a pint.

 

"....a bigger upset than not being able to use your cultists in 5th edition tourney games."

 

which allows be to drop in an ineviatbely deleted section : Sod that - I still use my AL Lost and Damned army in GW all the time.

( Rant about tournements and tournement players being utter (rant about rant deleted on legal advice) deleted on legal advice)

[igotsmeakabob!!]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Senseilord. Always nice to have an intelligent back-and-forth on the 'net.

[Senseilord Ashahara]

Hurrah! I've avoided the forum till I've had a pint because of the fear that I'll be running into a Flame Wall.

Though Alpha Legion paranoia means that I've had to run the Irony Detector over your reply and send the readings to Dark Mechaninicus for analyisis.

[Rain]

Just to throw my 2 cents in where they aren't needed, I think this schism is exactly the kind of thing the Alpha Legion needed to become a more fleshed out faction. They hardly had any fluff at all before and now they have fluff that truly makes them an enigma not just to the denizens of the 40k world but to us as well. Saying that such and such fictional character is sneaky and mysterious is one thing (essentially AL fluff pre-Legion) but actually making their very allegiance an open question to the mostly omniscient players is quite another.

 

Oh and by the way I'm not a "Dark Knight" type anithero fanboy. In fact, I think the entire concept of the benevolent antihero is flawed as I think that vigilantes are just thugs and sadists that want to escape persecution and/or prosecution by mostly killing other thugs and sadists, but I like Legion for finally making the AL mysterious in a way no other 40k faction is and a way the Alphas if nobody else deserve to be. Heck my personal theory is that they eventually became disillusioned with the cabal and are now as chaos as other non-religious traitor legions like the Night Lords and Iron Warriors, but that's just my take.

 

Sure it's a bit cheesy, but then most of 40k is a bit cheesy and this wilderness of mirrors spin on the Alpha Legion's primarch(s) and motivations fit quite perfectly in my opinion.