keep getting into an argument over a sgts amount of attacks

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

okay, in the squads profile, it states that the whole basic troop squad is armed with both bolters and bolt pistols, and that base, a marine sgt has 2 attacks. but an ork/guard/marine player keeps saying that i only get 2 attacks if i trade my bolter for a chainsword. i argue that he base always has 2 attacks, yes he is armed with both a bolter and a bolt pistol, he just cant attack/shoot with both. yet when in combat with his basic boyz and the one with a big shoota he argues he gets his base 2 attacks basic because thats what it says in the codex for his ork. (this is not his orks charging, this is for me charging him and after we are already locked in combat) and so i argue with him that if his big shoota ork gets his 2 basic attacks even though he is wielding a 2 handed weapon, i should get 2 attacks basic with my sgt because it states it in his profile, and he argues i dont because its a 2 handed weapon and i dont get the bonus for having a bolter and a bolt pistol. he states that he either has a bolter or bolt pistol not both. even though it states in the marine codex that "may replace his bolter and/or bolt pistol" meaning he has both, and he says that i dont, i either have 1 or the other, and only get my base 2 attacks if i have a chainsword and a pistol weapon. who here is right?

[Brother_Kluft]

All models get a number of attacks as listed in their profile. Additionally

 

1 - A model gets + 1 attack from charging

2 - A model with 2 close combat weapons gets + 1 attack.

[Exception, lightning claws, Thunder Hammers and power fists must be a a pair to get the extra attack]

3 - A model may get additional attacks for special rules and/or wargear [eg, daemon weapons]

 

In your example

 

Sgt has base 2 + 1 for 2 close combat weapons (pistol and sword) + 1 for charging = 4 attacks

 

Regarding wargear. All space marines have bolter and pistol. The Sgt has the option to trade Bolter for various weapons. Hence he has a pistol and one of [chainsword, lightning claw, power sword, power fist]

[Night Stalker]

He have 3 attacks with chainsword/pistol or power weapon/pistol and 2 attacks with Power Fist or Bolter/pistol.

 

All this without charge.

[Tom O'Bedlam]

wait.... so if I choose not to fire my tactical squads bolters in a turn can I assault as if I were using bolt pistol and chainsword? or do you have to declare which loadout your squad will take at the start of the game?

[Brother_Kluft]

You may shoot once with the pistols, then charge (since pistols are assault weapons)

 

You do not have to declare squad load out since Marines all come with BOTH bolter and pistol standard.

[Tom O'Bedlam]

i thought as much, how about if i'm charged after firing? would each marine get two attacks then? or would they get one attack each that turn then two in the next turn?

 

of the few games i've played with my marines this hasn't actually come up as the only squad that have had to fight in CC have been my assualt termies and my scouts

[chillin]

wait.... so if I choose not to fire my tactical squads bolters in a turn can I assault as if I were using bolt pistol and chainsword?

 

Only the sarg. counts as being armed w/ bp&ccw. The rest of the squad only has bp, no ccw, so the reg troopers would get 2 attacks on the charge, 1 attack per in each round after that.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

i thought as much, how about if i'm charged after firing? would each marine get two attacks then? or would they get one attack each that turn then two in the next turn?

 

of the few games i've played with my marines this hasn't actually come up as the only squad that have had to fight in CC have been my assualt termies and my scouts

all basic troop marines only get 1 attack, unless charging, so when you get assaulted, your marines (except for sgt) only get their base 1 attack, and your sgt gets whatever he has.

 

also, when deciding to shoot/assault when within the 6", you can either stand still and rapid fire all weapons (if within range and such) meaning if your whole squad of say 10 marines all have bolters, that would be 20 bolter shots. OR you can only shoot 1 bolter shot from all units (10 shots in this example) and still get all your attacks if you decide to assault, so meaing a squad of 10 assaulting with a sgt with just a bolter and 9 marines you would get 21 attacks. 22 if the sgt has a bolt pistol/plasma pistol

[Tom O'Bedlam]

right, so the sarge gets 4 on the charge then, if he has bp/ccw?

 

that figures.

 

so if there's a bunch of orks 12" away should i rapid fire, retreat and fire or move, fire and charge?

[==Me==]

He's an idiot, hit him with a chunk of masonry.

 

A sergeant has 2 attacks base, he can get more if you give him a pistol and ccw. All marines have bolters and bolt pistols, so they can choose which to fire each turn, but they do not have a ccw so they don't get any bonus attacks beyond charging.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

right, so the sarge gets 4 on the charge then, if he has bp/ccw?

 

that figures.

 

so if there's a bunch of orks 12" away should i rapid fire, retreat and fire or move, fire and charge?

against orks, depends on what they are, remember can you move up to 6" and rapid fire your bolters/pistols. so if say its a squad of nobz (doesnt matter if they all have powerclaws or no) if they dont have a painboy, shoot shoot and shoot some more at 12", if they have a painboy, you want to walk up on them, fire 1 shot with your weapons if you can, and assault them to take away all their extra attacks and such.

 

against a regular boys squad, if its 15<, then shoot them and then assault, you will most likely kill them all, or most. if <15, then your pretty much hosed no matter how much shooting you can do, or assault, so i would suggest pending situation, your going to have more luck shooting than assaulting depending on terrain, if there isnt any terrain to slow them down, then shoot and assault to take away bonus attacked and str bonus.

[Brother_Dan'l]

Depends on how big a group, what type of mob, what other weapons you've got, etc. It's always going to be situational. If there was a hard and fast rule the game wouldn't be nearly as much... fun? :lol:

[Tom O'Bedlam]

hah! thanks!

 

*wistfully imagines Nob squad disappearing into a fine red mist*

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

hah! thanks!

 

*wistfully imagines Nob squad disappearing into a fine red mist*

 

again, this isnt exact word, it all depends on situation and terrain and such, but this will set a real good guideline for what to do in most situations. no matter how uber you may think marines are, there is almost no possible way a single squad can kill a squad of 30 boyz in one turn, but this will help you whittle then down and soften a heavy blow. cause 30 orks assaulting will get like 4 attacks each, and you dont want to have to deal with almost 120 attacks on a squad of any kind, not even my incredibly good save rolls can save me from just the shear number of attacks being thrown.

[Merkava]

i was happy when they gave us the extra attack for the sgt and the bolt pistols. I had a bit of an argument with my buddy when he was playing his CSM with bolter/ccw/bp (using his second edition era marines with no chainswords) me being new to the game couldn't figure out why they had 2 attacks in cc. we rationalized it as they fire their bolters then when in cc sling them and pullout the ccw and bp. but really why wouldn't loyalist marines be able to do that? or is it just to give the CSM an edge in cc

[Grimtooth]

i thought as much, how about if i'm charged after firing? would each marine get two attacks then? or would they get one attack each that turn then two in the next turn?

 

of the few games i've played with my marines this hasn't actually come up as the only squad that have had to fight in CC have been my assualt termies and my scouts

all basic troop marines only get 1 attack, unless charging, so when you get assaulted, your marines (except for sgt) only get their base 1 attack, and your sgt gets whatever he has.

 

also, when deciding to shoot/assault when within the 6", you can either stand still and rapid fire all weapons (if within range and such) meaning if your whole squad of say 10 marines all have bolters, that would be 20 bolter shots. OR you can only shoot 1 bolter shot from all units (10 shots in this example) and still get all your attacks if you decide to assault, so meaing a squad of 10 assaulting with a sgt with just a bolter and 9 marines you would get 21 attacks. 22 if the sgt has a bolt pistol/plasma pistol

 

you messed up here. if you fire 1 BOLT PISTOL shot from all units, you would still get to assault. if you fire bolters, you can't assault.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

i could have sworn when deciding to assault, in the shooting phase you can fire one shot with bolters/pistols, and then assault, or you can just sit back and unload. i know bolters arent assault weapons, so they cant fire at full affect and still assault, but you should be able to take the pot shot and charge.

[Tom O'Bedlam]

again, this isnt exact word, it all depends on situation and terrain and such, but this will set a real good guideline for what to do in most situations. no matter how uber you may think marines are, there is almost no possible way a single squad can kill a squad of 30 boyz in one turn, but this will help you whittle then down and soften a heavy blow. cause 30 orks assaulting will get like 4 attacks each, and you dont want to have to deal with almost 120 attacks on a squad of any kind, not even my incredibly good save rolls can save me from just the shear number of attacks being thrown.

 

I'm an ork player, I know exactly how much of a pain it can be trying to wash marine blood of the armour of 30 boyz, don't worry! :lol:

[sal of manders]

2 - A model with 2 close combat weapons gets + 1 attack.

[Exception, lightning claws, Thunder Hammers and power fists must be a a pair to get the extra attack]

 

I might also add that if you have something like a power fist or lighting claw and a normal close combat weapon/pistol, the you get your normal number of attacks with the special weapon plus an attack with the CCW. For example, sergeant with a power fist and pistol gets 2 attacks with the fist (S8, ignore armour, and strike at init. 1) and a further attack with the pistol (S4, nothing special). So, 3 attacks total, normally. 4 attacks on the charge, (3 with fist, 1 with pistol in this case). Only a CCW or a pair of the same weapon will get you the extra attack.

[Tom O'Bedlam]

that doesn't sound right to me. i thought you only take the normal number of attacks and ignore the ccw. Otherwise my ork warboss would be getting 6 S10 Power Klaw attacks and one S5 CCW attack on the charge.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

2 - A model with 2 close combat weapons gets + 1 attack.

[Exception, lightning claws, Thunder Hammers and power fists must be a a pair to get the extra attack]

 

I might also add that if you have something like a power fist or lighting claw and a normal close combat weapon/pistol, the you get your normal number of attacks with the special weapon plus an attack with the CCW. For example, sergeant with a power fist and pistol gets 2 attacks with the fist (S8, ignore armour, and strike at init. 1) and a further attack with the pistol (S4, nothing special). So, 3 attacks total, normally. 4 attacks on the charge, (3 with fist, 1 with pistol in this case). Only a CCW or a pair of the same weapon will get you the extra attack.

 

ya, it doesnt work like that. if you have a powerfist and a plasma pistol, you only get your 2 attacks (and +1 on the charge), the ONLY time when equipped with 2 separate special weapons that you change what you can do is say if your equipped with say a thunder hammer and a powersword (cant be done with marines, but can with DH, and WH) you have to say which one your going to attack with before combat begins. and you dont get to split up attacks between the weapons. you either throw all your attacks with the hammer or the sword, not both.

[Tom O'Bedlam]

i thought as much.

 

slightly off topic but not worth starting a new thread about... I can take a sargeant with a Power fist and a combimelta can't I?

[Kurasuke]

If it is in the codex, then you can take it.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

yep, (and to make it on topic) and you still can get your +1 attack for assaulting (if you only shoot 1, not double tap) with the gun, for it will replace your base bolter, and when charging, you just put away your bolter and take out your bolt pistol.

[Kurasuke]

yep, (and to make it on topic) and you still can get your +1 attack for assaulting (if you only shoot 1, not double tap) with the gun, for it will replace your base bolter, and when charging, you just put away your bolter and take out your bolt pistol.

You can never get +1 for having a second close combat weapon with a power fist unless you take a second powerfist.

Also- if you buy a powerfist and a combi-melta for a sergeant, he no longer has his bolter and pistol. It is explicitly stated that these are replaced.