keep getting into an argument over a sgts amount of attacks

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

ya, sorry about that, thought he said chainsword, not powerfist. your right, you can never get the +1 attack unless you take 2 powerfist. that brings to mind, if you give your sgt 2 powerfist, do you have to replace your pistol? because i know shrike and other commanders can still fire their pistols and such, so can a sgt still take 2 fists and still have his pistol to shoot?

[Kurasuke]

Well the codex says something like "replace your bolter and/or bolt pistol with..." so if you were to double on powerfists you'd have to give up your original weapons.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

Well the codex says something like "replace your bolter and/or bolt pistol with..." so if you were to double on powerfists you'd have to give up your original weapons.

:P not really worth wasting 25 pts to get that extra attack IMO.

 

while we're at it, anyone else got any other assault/ sgt questions?

[eyescrossed]

but really why wouldn't loyalist marines be able to do that? or is it just to give the CSM an edge in cc

I think it's just so CSM are different to Loyalists, but I don't understand why they have Bolters, Pistols and CC weapons and Loyalists only have Bolters and Pistols.

[Tom O'Bedlam]

but really why wouldn't loyalist marines be able to do that? or is it just to give the CSM an edge in cc

I think it's just so CSM are different to Loyalists, but I don't understand why they have Bolters, Pistols and CC weapons and Loyalists only have Bolters and Pistols.

 

I bet Guilleman banned normal Battle-Brothers from carrying chainswords for health and safety reasons. The way I've heard it told he doesn't even let them run with scissors unless they're in full power armour.

[eyescrossed]

but really why wouldn't loyalist marines be able to do that? or is it just to give the CSM an edge in cc

I think it's just so CSM are different to Loyalists, but I don't understand why they have Bolters, Pistols and CC weapons and Loyalists only have Bolters and Pistols.

 

I bet Guilleman banned normal Battle-Brothers from carrying chainswords for health and safety reasons. The way I've heard it told he doesn't even let them run with scissors unless they're in full power armour.

:lol: Yeah, probably.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

but really why wouldn't loyalist marines be able to do that? or is it just to give the CSM an edge in cc

I think it's just so CSM are different to Loyalists, but I don't understand why they have Bolters, Pistols and CC weapons and Loyalists only have Bolters and Pistols.

 

I bet Guilleman banned normal Battle-Brothers from carrying chainswords for health and safety reasons. The way I've heard it told he doesn't even let them run with scissors unless they're in full power armour.

HAHAHAHAH....AHHAHAHAHAHAHAH, hahahahahahahah ha, ah oh, wow, best setup and tag team joke i have ever seen on this site, regardless of whether it was intentional or not. bravo

[Tom O'Bedlam]

haha, I'll be here all week :lol:

[sal of manders]

2 - A model with 2 close combat weapons gets + 1 attack.

[Exception, lightning claws, Thunder Hammers and power fists must be a a pair to get the extra attack]

 

I might also add that if you have something like a power fist or lighting claw and a normal close combat weapon/pistol, the you get your normal number of attacks with the special weapon plus an attack with the CCW. For example, sergeant with a power fist and pistol gets 2 attacks with the fist (S8, ignore armour, and strike at init. 1) and a further attack with the pistol (S4, nothing special). So, 3 attacks total, normally. 4 attacks on the charge, (3 with fist, 1 with pistol in this case). Only a CCW or a pair of the same weapon will get you the extra attack.

 

ya, it doesnt work like that. if you have a powerfist and a plasma pistol, you only get your 2 attacks (and +1 on the charge), the ONLY time when equipped with 2 separate special weapons that you change what you can do is say if your equipped with say a thunder hammer and a powersword (cant be done with marines, but can with DH, and WH) you have to say which one your going to attack with before combat begins. and you dont get to split up attacks between the weapons. you either throw all your attacks with the hammer or the sword, not both.

 

Now that I've reread the rules... yes, a CCW doesn't give you an extra attack for a power fist (or thunder hammer, or lightning claw), but it does for a normal power weapon or a force weapon. So if the sergeant has a power fist and CCW, it's just 2 attacks (3 if charging). If the sergeant has a power weapon (e.g. power sword) and CCW, it's 3 attacks (all ignoring armour in this case), (4 if charging).

[Tom O'Bedlam]

oh really? now that is interesting. If thats the case then might I be better having a powersword in this squad instead of a fist? if the sarge can have 4 S4 attacks thats pretty good actually and hopefully he won't need to assault any tanks...

 

10 Tac Combi-Melta PF, MG, MM

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

oh really? now that is interesting. If thats the case then might I be better having a powersword in this squad instead of a fist? if the sarge can have 4 S4 attacks thats pretty good actually and hopefully he won't need to assault any tanks...

 

10 Tac Combi-Melta PF, MG, MM

usually if i have the points to spare, give the sgt a powers sword, bolt pistol, and give the squad usually a melta gun/plasma gun and a heavy weapon like a heavy bolter or a plasma canon

[Emperor's Instrument]

On the point of firing bolt pistols over bolters then charging in does anyone actually do this? Do people ever say you're cheating 'til you show them the codex?

 

I can't believe I've never thought of doing it!! :wallbash:

[chapter master 454]

See your hardback rulebook, hit your friend with it. Sarges now have 2 basic attacks now, 3 with CCW and BP and 4 on the charge if equipped with the wargear stated (or equal like a power sword). Ether that just telion the ork big shoota and ask how many attacks he gets now!

 

In the case of ork I live by the old addage of 'charge or be charged'. 10 marines vs. 30 orks seems dicey but you'll do more damage if you run in, bolt pistol and charge. Remember orks are only slaughterers if they charge, take that away and they become much easier to deal with. effectively you get more attacks too if you charge the orks with a summary pistol firing session (while you may get several armour negating rounds, that 6+ save can hardly be accounted for, you get 32 attacks if you charge with pistol warm up. while the orks now need to wound with 5+ which helps alot).

[gil galed]

On the point of firing bolt pistols over bolters then charging in does anyone actually do this? Do people ever say you're cheating 'til you show them the codex?

 

I can't believe I've never thought of doing it!! :wallbash:

 

show them what codex? the BBB clearly states that you may make a single pistol shot before charging into combat or make 2 and not charge. Simple as, its not some crazy C:SM rule.

[waaanial00]

On the point of firing bolt pistols over bolters then charging in does anyone actually do this? Do people ever say you're cheating 'til you show them the codex?

 

I can't believe I've never thought of doing it!! :wallbash:

 

show them what codex? the BBB clearly states that you may make a single pistol shot before charging into combat or make 2 rapid fire shots from their boltgun and not charge. Simple as, its not some crazy C:SM rule.

 

Edited for clarity.

 

Also it is a fairly standard tactic and the reason we have been given pistols. If you are within 12" of a mob of Ork it is almost always advisable to charge in after a pistol shot because it denies them that all important S4 attack, ok they are still more than capable of dealing you some hurt but to be honest with them having to wound you on 5+ and you getting a better save you will likely beat them and force a LD or fearless death.

 

Dont count on being able to lose, fall back and charge back in though. It will be their go next and they will be able to stand within 6" of you to stop you from regrouping even if they decide not to charge into you and beat you in combat again.

 

Wan

[Emperor's Instrument]

On the point of firing bolt pistols over bolters then charging in does anyone actually do this? Do people ever say you're cheating 'til you show them the codex?

 

I can't believe I've never thought of doing it!! :wallbash:

 

show them what codex? the BBB clearly states that you may make a single pistol shot before charging into combat or make 2 rapid fire shots from their boltgun and not charge. Simple as, its not some crazy C:SM rule.

 

Edited for clarity.

 

Also it is a fairly standard tactic and the reason we have been given pistols. If you are within 12" of a mob of Ork it is almost always advisable to charge in after a pistol shot because it denies them that all important S4 attack, ok they are still more than capable of dealing you some hurt but to be honest with them having to wound you on 5+ and you getting a better save you will likely beat them and force a LD or fearless death.

 

Dont count on being able to lose, fall back and charge back in though. It will be their go next and they will be able to stand within 6" of you to stop you from regrouping even if they decide not to charge into you and beat you in combat again.

 

Wan

 

@ Gil Galed, I meant in reference to wargear not the actual rule of shooting/assualting.

 

Thanks for the clarity though, both of you. I shall now go on and use my marines in a more correct fashion :o

[Doc Faolan]

Now not so much with Sgts, but with Characters/Captains that have extra CCW weapons - they get the extra attack from the extra weapon (provided it falls within the aforementioned "does/does not get" fields) UNLESS it's noted that the extra attack is included in profile. There's a few like that in either/both CSM/CDA/CIG, not sure which offhand.

 

What's my point? Always make sure you check both the statlines in the back and the "fluffy" pages.

[PirateRogue]

oh really? now that is interesting. If thats the case then might I be better having a powersword in this squad instead of a fist? if the sarge can have 4 S4 attacks thats pretty good actually and hopefully he won't need to assault any tanks...

 

10 Tac Combi-Melta PF, MG, MM

 

This little tidbit is why my seargents have power weapons and melta bombs. 5 points less cost, you keep your inititive, and you keep the higher number of attacks.

[nighthawks]

Brothers - keep the topic on rules queries, not tactics (there's a forum for that), general conversation (forum for that), etc...

 

also, some of the things I've read in this thread suggest at best a skim of the rules, not a proper read-through. for your own sake and for the sake of anyone with whom you play, PLEASE read and reread the assault section of the rules (true for any section you have questions about) particularly BRB pages 37 and 42 which pertain to this thread.

 

short answers / clarifications for this thread:

 

base profile is never reduced without a special rule saying so - so a sgt. with 2 attacks always has, at minimum, 2 attacks.

 

combo of 2 CCWs grants +1A (except those specifically listed on BRB P42 as not)

 

shooting attacks before assault can only be made with assault and pistol weapons. certain unit types, vehicles, and special rules allow exceptions.

 

there exists no option to fire a rapid-fire weapon 1 time when within 12" of the target

 

all close combat attacks are made with one weapon. see page 42 for the list of situations including multiple special weapons. note that a single, special CCW must be used (again, P42)

[silverneil]

Well the codex says something like "replace your bolter and/or bolt pistol with..." so if you were to double on powerfists you'd have to give up your original weapons.

 

Page 128 CSM last para (7 Options) says 'and/or' means you replace either, neither or both provided you pay the stated costs. This means you keep your original weapons even when buying other ones.(if you want to)

 

Well...thats how I read it. Am i wrong?

[Maligoare]

Well the codex says something like "replace your bolter and/or bolt pistol with..." so if you were to double on powerfists you'd have to give up your original weapons.

 

Page 128 CSM last para (7 Options) says 'and/or' means you replace either, neither or both provided you pay the stated costs. This means you keep your original weapons even when buying other ones.(if you want to)

 

Well...thats how I read it. Am i wrong?

 

Neither means that you only have the original weapons. If you want something different, you have to pay the costs, which in this case can include a bolt pistol or boltgun.

[silverneil]

Well the codex says something like "replace your bolter and/or bolt pistol with..." so if you were to double on powerfists you'd have to give up your original weapons.

 

Page 128 CSM last para (7 Options) says 'and/or' means you replace either, neither or both provided you pay the stated costs. This means you keep your original weapons even when buying other ones.(if you want to)

 

Well...thats how I read it. Am i wrong?

 

Neither means that you only have the original weapons. If you want something different, you have to pay the costs, which in this case can include a bolt pistol or boltgun.

 

Why would someone replace neither weapon at a cost . I'm interested in the interpretation of this line, so welcome all slants on it

[Frosty the Pyro]

Well the codex says something like "replace your bolter and/or bolt pistol with..." so if you were to double on powerfists you'd have to give up your original weapons.

 

Page 128 CSM last para (7 Options) says 'and/or' means you replace either, neither or both provided you pay the stated costs. This means you keep your original weapons even when buying other ones.(if you want to)

 

Well...thats how I read it. Am i wrong?

 

Neither means that you only have the original weapons. If you want something different, you have to pay the costs, which in this case can include a bolt pistol or boltgun.

 

Why would someone replace neither weapon at a cost . I'm interested in the interpretation of this line, so welcome all slants on it

It was a fancy way of him sayin you where wrong, you do not keep your orignal weapons. And/or does not include a neither, it means you can replace one, the other, or both (replacing both if you purchase 2 new peaces of wargear). So yeah what he was saying is if you replace neither, you dont get the new wargear.

[Lokied]

you messed up here. if you fire 1 BOLT PISTOL shot from all units, you would still get to assault. if you fire bolters, you can't assault.

 

Actually in this situation its a wash.... really. A SM squad can only charge if within 12". Incidently the max range of the Pistol is 12". So if your opponet ran up to you and fired 1 shot , as long as everyone shooting was within those 12" it really wouldn't matter whether he said "I'm shooting my bolters," or "I'm shooting my Bolt Pistols." Unless of course your just a really big meanie. Yes while the RAW says he can only shoot BPs he technically did not break any rules and calling foul on the above situation would just be mean spirited. By all means though, respectfully inform your opponent of the RAW so he doesn't boo boo in the future.

[Kurasuke]

you messed up here. if you fire 1 BOLT PISTOL shot from all units, you would still get to assault. if you fire bolters, you can't assault.

 

Actually in this situation its a wash.... really. A SM squad can only charge if within 12". Incidently the max range of the Pistol is 12". So if your opponet ran up to you and fired 1 shot , as long as everyone shooting was within those 12" it really wouldn't matter whether he said "I'm shooting my bolters," or "I'm shooting my Bolt Pistols." Unless of course your just a really big meanie. Yes while the RAW says he can only shoot BPs he technically did not break any rules and calling foul on the above situation would just be mean spirited. By all means though, respectfully inform your opponent of the RAW so he doesn't boo boo in the future.

But you're not shooting a single shot from your bolter. You can never do it.

It is a wash, but you should be careful not say that. Otherwise people are just gonna think your rolled the wrong number of shots, or something.