can land speeders capture objectives

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

okay, as of like 2 weeks ago, GW had a land speeder tactica that states that land speeders can claim objectives, but now since it is 'gone' or waiting to be updated when the storm comes out or something to that effect. and since the marine codex doesnt state that it can capture objectives (but in the WD that was released with the marine codex does state this, but i dont happen to have it with me to argue my point) so is there any official spot or place on anything thats GW thats stated currently right now they can capture objectives (we already know they can contest it).

 

also, if all basic troop units are outside of an objective and cant claim it, can an elite or hq or any other option claim the objective since there is no other unit that can contest it or claim it?

[gil galed]

1/ Only troops choices can claim objectives

2/ For the most part landspeeders are FA

 

 

so no they can't claim it

 

this goes for all non-troop slots unless they have a special rule (like kantor sternguard)

 

 

I'm hazy on weather a LSS with scouts inside could capture though... presumably yes

[Seahawk]

, can an elite or hq or any other option claim the objective since there is no other unit that can contest it or claim it

Of course they can't. Only Troops units are scoring. However, a Troops unit doesn't count as scoring if it is a vehicle. GW was just reallly slow in getting down something out of date.

 

@ gil galed: of course they can. Any Troops unit in a vehicle can capture an objective.

 

All of these answers are right next to each other on page 90 of the BRB.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

again, up until this week from what i can find, they had a tactica (and so far every other websites tactica from what i have seen like such : http://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/tactica_r...ndspeeders.htm) that states that land speeders had the ability to capture objectives, and i was wondering if anyone knew any official spots anywhere GW wise that still states it or is the WD that had the info now absolutely wrong and its about a year old. if anyone has the issue handy, i know it was stated in either WD 344 or 345, maybe even 346, cant completely remember right now but it was one of those 3

[Grey Mage]

And again, a GW Tactica is NOT an official rules source sadly, nor is a white dwarf. There are numerous examples of times when a White Dwarf has a battlereport where rules were ignored, or just plain different than they are in the codex later.

 

Only, debatably, DA speeders can capture objectives, as stated in their codex.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

And again, a GW Tactica is NOT an official rules source sadly, nor is a white dwarf. There are numerous examples of times when a White Dwarf has a battlereport where rules were ignored, or just plain different than they are in the codex later.

 

Only, debatably, DA speeders can capture objectives, as stated in their codex.

thats probably where they are getting it from, it wouldnt be the first time the dark angels were given stuff and it was passed over to everyone else *cough cough null zone, everyone with bolt pistols, grenades, etc cough*

[gil galed]

again, up until this week from what i can find, they had a tactica (and so far every other websites tactica from what i have seen like such : http://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/tactica_r...ndspeeders.htm) that states that land speeders had the ability to capture objectives, and i was wondering if anyone knew any official spots anywhere GW wise that still states it or is the WD that had the info now absolutely wrong and its about a year old. if anyone has the issue handy, i know it was stated in either WD 344 or 345, maybe even 346, cant completely remember right now but it was one of those 3

 

1/ its Dark Angels who have scoring troop LS

 

2/ It clearly says 4th edition top right when everything was scoring, we are playing 5th edition now,

 

 

You should NEVER base you assumption on what tactica says, even gw tactica, if you did persuade anyone you're LS were scoring with that print out you should apologize for being wrong :wallbash:

[Legatus]

I disagree that Dark Angels Land Speeders count as scoring. In 4th Edition the rule was that mobile Vehicles and units over 50% strength counted as scoring units. The Codex Dark Angels is from 4th Edition. When Combat Squads are explained (C:DA, p. 23), the rules explain that each combat squad individually counts as a scoring unit as long as they are above 50% strength. For one thing that shows that the rules are referencing the basic rules at that time, and I assume you will not demand from a Dark Angels player that his combat squads below 50% strength do not count as scoring. But the other thing is that this sets up the statement from the Ravenwing rules. Ravenwing squadrons consist of 3 or 6 bikes and up to one Attack Bike and one Land Speeder. The rules on page 27 explain that they are "much like combat squads", in that all the models from the squadron are deployed at the same time. The rules then establish that just like each combat squad above 50% counts as an individual scoring unit, the Attack Bike and the Land Speeder allways operate independently and are each a scoring unit of one model.

 

If you decide to ignore that these rules are refering to 4th Edition mechanics then Dark Angels Attack Bikes and Land Speeders would allways count as scoring, period, no matter whether the squadron was taken as a Troops or a Fast Attack choice. It would also mean that Dark Angels combat squads below half of their starting strength would not count as scoring.

 

Edit: Oh yeah, but ALL Dark Angels combat squads count as scoring, not just Troops. Assault Squads, Devastator Squads and Veteran Squads as well.

[JamesI]

Edit: Oh yeah, but ALL Dark Angels combat squads count as scoring, not just Troops. Assault Squads, Devastator Squads and Veteran Squads as well.

I thought that was fixed in the Dark Angels FAQ.

[Legatus]

Ah, yes, they errata'ed that particular sentence.

[Grey Mage]

I disagree that Dark Angels Land Speeders count as scoring. In 4th Edition the rule was that mobile Vehicles and units over 50% strength counted as scoring units. The Codex Dark Angels is from 4th Edition. When Combat Squads are explained (C:DA, p. 23), the rules explain that each combat squad individually counts as a scoring unit as long as they are above 50% strength. For one thing that shows that the rules are referencing the basic rules at that time, and I assume you will not demand from a Dark Angels player that his combat squads below 50% strength do not count as scoring. But the other thing is that this sets up the statement from the Ravenwing rules. Ravenwing squadrons consist of 3 or 6 bikes and up to one Attack Bike and one Land Speeder. The rules on page 27 explain that they are "much like combat squads", in that all the models from the squadron are deployed at the same time. The rules then establish that just like each combat squad above 50% counts as an individual scoring unit, the Attack Bike and the Land Speeder allways operate independently and are each a scoring unit of one model.

 

If you decide to ignore that these rules are refering to 4th Edition mechanics then Dark Angels Attack Bikes and Land Speeders would allways count as scoring, period, no matter whether the squadron was taken as a Troops or a Fast Attack choice. It would also mean that Dark Angels combat squads below half of their starting strength would not count as scoring.

 

Edit: Oh yeah, but ALL Dark Angels combat squads count as scoring, not just Troops. Assault Squads, Devastator Squads and Veteran Squads as well.

This is why I said it was debatable. Though it brings up a question in my mind Legatus- what about the interpretation of the rules that older codices cannot have units in a dedicated transport that was not purchased for that specific unit because of the wording of a transport section wich was referencing the rules at the time?

[Legatus]

As far as I can see only the Witch Hunters and Daemon Hunters Codices say that, while Eldar, Orks, Dark Angels do not say anything like that. I would consider that obsolete, but then again so might be the Inquisition Codices as a whole.

[SeattleDV8]

Dark Angel Land Speeders, part of a RW Attack Squadron, were and are still scoring.

The BRB disallows vehicles that are 'troops' to be scoring.

DA Codex Pg. 27 "......they always operate as completely independent scoring units of one model."

If Sammael is with the army the RW attack Squadron does count as troops, but the specific codex rule over-rules the BRB general one.

The FAQ did change the way many DA units count as scoring, it did not change this.

[Legatus]

The FaQ also did not change that the Ravenwing Bikes are not allowed to turbo boost during their scout move. I am not that keen on insisting on adherence to outdated edition mechanics because they were repeaded in an older Codex. The same with Black Templar ICs in their retinues. Yeah yeah, that's what the Codex says, but come on, we all know why the Codex says that. If someone just started playing and does not know about older editions and how old a Codex is it would be a good advise to simply stick to "RAW", as he has no idear about the history of the rules. But someone who has played 4th Edition and has witnessed the transition over into 5th Edition can view such rules in a different perspective.

[eyescrossed]

Shouldn't people start another topic if they're discussing whether DA Speeders are scoring?

 

 

:huh:

Why do people put "FaQ" instead of "FAQ"? Frequently Asked Questions - I don't see why Asked wouldn't be capitalised.

:to:

[Legatus]

B)

It is probably only me who does that, maybe because my roots are not in the english language and I am used to only capitalize nouns (but doing so in regular sentenses too).

:P

[gil galed]

As far as I can see only the Witch Hunters and Daemon Hunters Codices say that, while Eldar, Orks, Dark Angels do not say anything like that. I would consider that obsolete, but then again so might be the Inquisition Codices as a whole.

 

*Powers up his nemsis force weapon*

 

"What? obsolete you say...."

 

 

 

 

But yeh they could do with some tweaking, but they are still playable and winnable B)

[eyescrossed]

:wallbash:

It is probably only me who does that, maybe because my roots are not in the english language and I am used to only capitalize nouns (but doing so in regular sentenses too).

:wink:

Oh... That explains it, but I have seen other people do it as well.

[karm]

If someone tried to claim that DA land speeders were scoring to me I would certainly contest it. Mainly because the DA codex is old and outdated and is in direct contradiction with the 5th ed rules. The rules clearly state that NO vehicle can be a scoring unit, so I would rather take my rules from the updated rulebook rather than an outdated codex, written when scoring units were a completely different thing.

[Frosty the Pyro]

If someone tried to claim that DA land speeders were scoring to me I would certainly contest it. Mainly because the DA codex is old and outdated and is in direct contradiction with the 5th ed rules. The rules clearly state that NO vehicle can be a scoring unit, so I would rather take my rules from the updated rulebook rather than an outdated codex, written when scoring units were a completely different thing.

 

Wrong, codex trumps rulebook, always. It even says so in the rule book. I dont have a DA dex with me, but if it says that DA speeders are scoring, then they are, it doesnt matter what any other book says. The only thing that trumps a codex is an errata of that codex.

[Legatus]

"Codex trumps Rulebook" is a very good guideline. If one knows the history and developement of different books and rules, however, one would know that a Codex might repeat a basic rule and that this rule might then be changed with a new edition Rulebook. We know what the Codex Dark Angels is saying, but we also know why he is saying that.

[Isiah]

If someone tried to claim that DA land speeders were scoring to me I would certainly contest it. Mainly because the DA codex is old and outdated and is in direct contradiction with the 5th ed rules. The rules clearly state that NO vehicle can be a scoring unit, so I would rather take my rules from the updated rulebook rather than an outdated codex, written when scoring units were a completely different thing.

 

Wrong, codex trumps rulebook, always. It even says so in the rule book. I dont have a DA dex with me, but if it says that DA speeders are scoring, then they are, it doesnt matter what any other book says. The only thing that trumps a codex is an errata of that codex.

 

You're right, but remember that only speeders bought as part of the Ravenwing Attack Squadron are ALWAYS counted as scoring (and whether Sammy is present to convert them into troops or not makes no difference). Land Speeders bought as part of Ravenwing Support Squadrons are NEVER scoring.

 

This is where some confusion has arisen I think - that and looking at old tacticas :) .

 

Cheers

I

[Frosty the Pyro]

"Codex trumps Rulebook" is a very good guideline. If one knows the history and developement of different books and rules, however, one would know that a Codex might repeat a basic rule and that this rule might then be changed with a new edition Rulebook. We know what the Codex Dark Angels is saying, but we also know why he is saying that.

Except its not a guidline, its a RULE. if a codex repeats a basic rule thats changed in a new editin of the Rulebook, you use the version in the codex. Its why which/deamon hunters get to kill eternal wariors with their force weapons, and why their smoke launchers reduce pens to glances instead of giving a cover save. Look at pg 62 of the rulebook, at the bottom of the smoke launchers insert "As normal, the rules in the codex take precedence."

[Legatus]

But since we know the reason why the rule in Codex Dark Angels I cite the "most important rule". :D

[Steelmage99]

Edited because I was wrong.