Grey Knight Heroes

[Terminus]

No your right Hinti, Sacred incense decreases the initiative of all chaos models by 1 when in a combat which the grandmaster participates. Chaos as in daemons and chaos so its probably one of the best pieces of wargear around considering it allows your normal terminators to essentially still get their attacks when a chaos lord would kill them before they strike.

 

yeh i thought i'd point out that you don't get +1I the enemy gets -1I, which can make a difference

Actually, it makes an enormous difference, because it means the rest of the Grandmaster's squad is essentially at +1I. This is huge.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

But:

I6 with 'Sacred Incense' against Daemons

??????????

A GM has I5, and Sacred Incense works on ALL Chaos Modells............??

Or am I wrong?

 

Ah yes, well spotted. I forgot 'Sacred Incense' works against Chaos Marines as well.

 

yeh i thought i'd point out that you don't get +1I the enemy gets -1I, which can make a difference

 

What I meant was 'effective I6', as that is what happens. A Slanneshi model is at -1I, so they're at I5, which is the same as the Grandmaster etc

That was one of the things I pointed out... a Daemon hammer plays better with a psycannon (or incinerator) because you can never gain an extra attack with it.. so you have a lower opportunity cost for utilizing the special weapons (psycannons also like the higher BS)

 

You are spending 60pts to deprive the GM of the only S6 'slays outright' force weapon in the game, in exchange for a thunderhammer that hits at Initiative against Daemons only, and a S6 heavy bolter (admittedly at BS5) which ignores invul. I think it's a colossal waste, and completely uneccessary. A GM+retinue should be charging into combat, leave fire support to PAGK (they are better at it, not to mention scoring as well, so they're suited to a 'camp and blast away' style).

 

The Thunder Hammer paired with the Psycannon or Incinerator is something that most of the Retinue cannot do, if you want to pair up and have two of one of these in your squad, having other options besides a Storm Shield/NFW pair is nice.

 

You don't want to do that anyhow. To abuse wound allocation (everyone with small elite units does it, join the party <_< ), sticking the squad psycannon/incinerator on one GKT, then have another one with just storm bolter, then another two GKT's packing TH+SS. By breaking up equipment, you can more easily pawn off those nasty S8+ wounds or force weapon attacks (you do have Aegis against a force-weapon attack, but it's still 50/50 you'll block it).

Yes, I acknowledge that the loss of initiative can be telling, but depending on circumstances you might be very happy with the additional strength 8.. as well as if you're a person that likes dual Holocausts or Sanctuary or something. Just ideas to consider.

 

There are better options than a daemonhammer, TBH. It's a nice gimmick (S8 power weapon with re-rolls to hit/wound, at WS5/I6, combing it with 'Sacred Incense' and 'Destroy Daemon'), but the S6 force weapon you get is unique and free, not to mention more useful against non-Daemons. Your retinue can swap out for TH for free (for both stun-locking MC's and bashing vehicles, not to mention wound-allocation funtime), and you can buy 'Hammerhand' for 1/3rd of the price (which is the same as a powerfist against armour, except at your I5). 'Hammerhand' serves the important function of destroying Dreadnoughts and Soulgrinders before they can swing (or at least ripping off the DCCW's so you get armour saves).

 

I'm not a fan of 'Holocaust', it's too weak when it works, and too crippling when it fails. A squad incinerator helps with wound allocation, never backfires and disallows all saves bar 2+ and 3+ (which in close-combat is exactly what GKT's love carving through).

 

'Sanctuary' is amusing (if you are getting slaughtered you can just end combat at will), but I leave that to Mystic-equipped Inquisitors to screen my precious PAGK squads (who are busy hosing down incoming Daemons with massed storm bolter+psycannon). The GM+friends are designed to steamroller Daemons (especially MC's) in close-combat, so hanging back behind an invulnerable bubble seems a bit cowardly. I'd rather take on that Bloodthirster than just hide behind a psychic power all game.

[gil galed]

misquote and can't find what my point was now, doh! ;)

[Secondwind]

@Gil Galed - With that short quote its hard to understand the context fully but I think hes referencing the greater str 8 + initi 1 from a daemon/thunder hammer vs the str6 + normal initi of a NFW. Inquisitor Nicole Pyykkonen is defending the switch by saying that the str 8 thunderhammer he finds more useful due to instant killing most T4 multiwound targets, stunlocking and not to mention greater tank busting power.

 

 

 

--In this regard I agree with the other posters in saying you are severely overpricing your hero by removing items which you are still paying for and which sadly dont really shine unless fighting a daemon specific opponent. That does not mean the items mentioned are bad, just that the other options fit the roles better and are cheaper.

 

Daemonhammer / Thunderhammer vs Nemesis force weapon / hammer hand:

 

-Anti-tank: Hammerhand pretty much is superior due to same str as a hammer but strikes on initiative and with +1 attack. This is scary to all dreadnaught types as none have initiative 5 (from my knowledge that is).

 

-Anti-infantry: str 6 is strong enough for 95% of your opponents and striking on initiative can mean you are more likely to get attacks with the rest of the squad. With subpar stormshields, initiative one combat hits can mean you may never get to attack.

 

-Points costs wise your paying 170 vs 155 which does mean you are paying approximately 15-20 points more to downgrade.

 

---------------------------Ranged weapons:

-Ranged weapon of incinerator / psycannon: I personally believe the cost of the extra weapon is too expensive to warrent it but I can see some useage depending how you setup your terminator squads (none of which appeal to me). To buy a thunder hammer then an incinerator / psycannon just seems very unfocused in this regard.

 

-I do think if you dropped your daemonhammer / psycannon for 1 point more you would gain: hammerhand + an extra terminator with a thunderhammer / stormshield which means you also get an extra wound + 2-3 attacks without loosing anything really.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I will concede that you all have very valid points.

 

The typical loadout for my one unit of Grey Knights (I know.. I need more, I use them as allies for my Witch Hunters army though with the current other projects I have on the table and the new baby any time now in the next couple weeks acquisition of the PAGK's keeps getting pushed back) is as follows:

 

Elites:

Grey Knight Terminators (Brother Captain w/ thunder hammer, psycannon and 4 GKTs w/ psycannon)

 

total point cost: 300

 

Now there's been one or two games in which I've used the following:

 

Grandmaster w/ daemon hammer, psycannon, bionics, grimoire of true names, sacred incense, unguents of warding, destroy demon

retinue: 4 terminators w/ psycannon, holocaust

 

total point cost: 489

 

It was hideously effective in those particular games, without needing me to alter any of my models (which since I only have the 5 termies is nice)

 

The real role of this squad is an elite counter-charge unit with long range fire support for my Witch Hunters, as well as tank busting capability. A Witch Hunters army tends to suffer a lack of long range firepower similar to that of the Daemon Hunters, but two psycannons which can fire on the move and take out transports help tremendously. Having a unit with a 2+/5+ armor save also helps the more fragile Sisters and ISTs. The 3 or 4 attacks at strength 8 and the 12 or so attacks at strength 6 help with all sorts of things that the rest of the army simply don't have the strength to handle.

 

Perhaps it is a quirk of my army list, or my own particular approach, but I've been exceedingly impressed with my unit, and the conversion I did of the Stern model I'm particularly happy with.

 

Hopefully one day soon I'll get him painted so I can post a picture :P

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Elites:

Grey Knight Terminators (Brother Captain w/ thunder hammer, psycannon and 4 GKTs w/ psycannon)

 

total point cost: 300

 

Given the BC is usually useless, thats not a bad idea (seeing as he gets he swap for free). Elite GKT's make pretty good fire support (as your running SoB as Troops, having more scoring units isn't as big a deal as it is in a DH/pure GK army).

 

Grandmaster w/ daemon hammer, psycannon, bionics, grimoire of true names, sacred incense, unguents of warding, destroy demon

retinue: 4 terminators w/ psycannon, holocaust

 

total point cost: 489

 

It was hideously effective in those particular games, without needing me to alter any of my models (which since I only have the 5 termies is nice)

 

;) Thats a metric boatload of wargear there...no doubt it's effective, but yeesh..third of your army gone at 1,500pts

 

The real role of this squad is an elite counter-charge unit with long range fire support for my Witch Hunters, as well as tank busting capability. A Witch Hunters army tends to suffer a lack of long range firepower similar to that of the Daemon Hunters, but two psycannons which can fire on the move and take out transports help tremendously. Having a unit with a 2+/5+ armor save also helps the more fragile Sisters and ISTs. The 3 or 4 attacks at strength 8 and the 12 or so attacks at strength 6 help with all sorts of things that the rest of the army simply don't have the strength to handle.

 

You could do the same with PAGK, who are scoring as well. Lose the power weapons, but get more bodies and a Fearless scoring unit to camp your home objective while the SoB trundle off in their Rhinos/Repressors to assault the enemy objectives.

 

WH's do suffer from a lack of 24"+ firepower, but thats where a squad of heavy bolter Retributors and 2 x Exorcists come into play. The former can demolish most infantry (chuck 'Divine Guidance' on them, it's plain nasty) and even take down MC's (HB's wound Princes and other MC's on 5+/6+ anyway, so you're going to be AP1 with most of the wounds you inflict). The Exorcists are anti-everything, although they probably work best against AV12- and MC's.

DH's have to use Hellfire Dreadnoughts and Landraiders, which are considerably more expensive than the WH options and arguably less effective.

 

I think you need to streamline that Grandmaster unit, because it's simply too overloaded with marginal/useless stuff. A much cheaper and more effective option is;

 

Grandmaster w/NFW+SS, 'Sacred Incense', 'Hammerhand'

GKT w/incinerator, 2 x GKT's w/storm bolters, GKT w/TH+SS

(374 points)

 

Psycannons are really anti-infantry weapons, and thats something your SoB already do very well. It also distracts the unit from it's true purpose, which is as your said counter-assault. A few storm bolter rounds and an incinerator burst is all you'll really need to soften up the enemy. Once in combat, your GM can choose between anti-tank (by activating 'Hammerhand' and ripping that annoying Dreadnought/Soulgrinder to pieces, or at least ripping off the DCCW's so the retinue lives longer) or anti-everything else (6 x S6 force weapon attacks will kill any character/MC in the game, not to mention carve up heavy infantry pretty easily). The retinue then comes in with 9 x S6 power weapon attacks to help clear out more of the enemy unit, while the TH dude takes powerfist wounds and stun-locks MC's/stuns walkers who didn't die to 'Hammerhand').

 

Perhaps it is a quirk of my army list, or my own particular approach, but I've been exceedingly impressed with my unit, and the conversion I did of the Stern model I'm particularly happy with.

 

Hopefully one day soon I'll get him painted so I can post a picture dry.gif

 

I have no doubt it's been very effective, but it's down rather to the fundamental strengths of the unit, rather than the 150pts+ of wargear+powers you've stacked onto them. My philosophy with out-fitting units is to support their existing strengths and focus, and try to alleviate their weaknesses. GKT's need very little to make them any better in close-combat (a few upgrades on the GM and a squad incinerator is really just icing), but they can be bogged down in combat with walkers (which is where taking 'Hammerhand' really pays off). While 'Hammerhand' is nice it's not really anti-tank (leave that to Seraphim w/inferno pistols, your squad meltaguns or the Canoness w/'Hand' boosted eviscerator).

 

Just post some pics of the conversion, I like watching modelling projects come together over time. It also lets people give you help in painting (I find layering one of the hardest parts with centerpiece models like HQ units).

 

If you're going to stick with the psycannon (the daemonhammer isn't a problem, it works fine as a NFW and it's great for representing when you turn on 'Hammerhand'), I'd just count it as a storm bolter and use the point saved (I gave him a storm shield, which won't suit your current conversion) to give him psycannon bolts. Much the same rules, but 1/3rd the price of the actual gun (and you want those 20pts for the incense and 'Hammerhand').