Tom O'Bedlam Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 I land my ironclad in drop pod on turn 1 like so http://www.b3tards.com/u/f9d89e8a11037c5bd200/dread-2.png I fire my melta at the tank. Can I also fire my heavy flamer "at the tank" but, dear oh deary me it doesn't reach but the template covers several models in the infantry squad. Can I do that? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168848-template-questions/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedric Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Yep. You aim for the tank, the other squad is just collateral caught in the blast. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168848-template-questions/#findComment-1992189 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom O'Bedlam Posted May 18, 2009 Author Share Posted May 18, 2009 amazing :D thanks! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168848-template-questions/#findComment-1992192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 I'm not so sure, if the tank is out of range I don't think it fires. Now if the tank is in range but still can't be hurt by the flamer, that's fine, but if it's out of range.... I can't provide page references though, that's just the way I remember it, anyone else able to back me up here? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168848-template-questions/#findComment-1992267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maligoare Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 P 17 of the BRB might have something to say about that... :D "Any model that is found out of range of all of the models he can see in the target unit misses automatically" - seems to me that unless part of the tank is under the template then it's a no-go. Template rules seem to be in conflict though, so which one wins out? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168848-template-questions/#findComment-1992268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedric Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 You can't really miss with a blast or template weapon, there is no rolling to hit and the gout of flame or explosion will have to end up somewhere. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168848-template-questions/#findComment-1992307 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonzo Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 From the game I played with this scenario (mine was a squad shooting a krak at a rhino and a flamer also), the majority consensus was that if the flamer does not reach the intended target (in this case the tank) then it does not shoot, and so, does not inflict collateral damage to the squad between you and the tank. So I think that the rule Maligoare stated would be the correct ruling. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168848-template-questions/#findComment-1992315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom O'Bedlam Posted May 18, 2009 Author Share Posted May 18, 2009 From the game I played with this scenario (mine was a squad shooting a krak at a rhino and a flamer also), the majority consensus was that if the flamer does not reach the intended target (in this case the tank) then it does not shoot, and so, does not inflict collateral damage to the squad between you and the tank. So I think that the rule Maligoare stated would be the correct ruling. I've asked on another forum about this and a chap who runs tournaments has said that they interpret the rules to mean the template hits the infantry even if the tank is out of range. The main argument being given is common sense and the template rules. common sense because the gout of flame won't simply boil off into the aether :devil: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168848-template-questions/#findComment-1992346 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonzo Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 How about this: Roll a dice. On a 3-, the template hits the marines no matter if intended target it out of range On a 4+, the flamer misses marines since intended target it out of range. At least, thats what we normally do for this kind of dispute. Not sure if it will work on a forum though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168848-template-questions/#findComment-1992353 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom O'Bedlam Posted May 18, 2009 Author Share Posted May 18, 2009 haha I don't think it does no :cry: though I totally just rolled a 5 :devil: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168848-template-questions/#findComment-1992355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiveFleetEzekial Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 How about this: Roll a dice. On a 3-, the template hits the marines no matter if intended target it out of range On a 4+, the flamer misses marines since intended target it out of range. At least, thats what we normally do for this kind of dispute. Not sure if it will work on a forum though. Or they could just play by the rules. As someone else already pointed out, if tha target is beyond the range of the weapon, it automatically misses and has no effect, period. Doesn't matter if there's no 'to hit roll', it's the range that's making it miss. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168848-template-questions/#findComment-1992400 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom O'Bedlam Posted May 18, 2009 Author Share Posted May 18, 2009 Perhaps the trouble here is that there are two different definitions of "target" that are in play here. The "intended target" of the weapon is the tank. The infantry models are "incidental targets". The template must be pointed in the direction of its "intended target"; then for every model on the board, if the model is out of range of the template then the template misses it (obviously this is not a necessary condition for the template to miss the model!), and therefore it is not an incidental target. If all else fails, apply the common sense interpretation. Are the infantrymen hit by the gout of flame directed at the vehicle behind them? Of course they are. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168848-template-questions/#findComment-1992530 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleDV8 Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Thats great for House Rules. The rules (and GW) are not always logical or make sense, Unless you realize that some rules are for game balance and to simplifly game play. Although it seems to make "common sense" What if you have a lascannon shooting at a target 40" away? should the flamer be allowed to toast a squad right in front of him? HiveFleetEzekial and Maligoare are correct. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168848-template-questions/#findComment-1992551 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom O'Bedlam Posted May 18, 2009 Author Share Posted May 18, 2009 you make a convincing argument there, I think we'll play that for friendlies, ta Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168848-template-questions/#findComment-1992589 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Or they could just play by the rules. As someone else already pointed out, if tha target is beyond the range of the weapon, it automatically misses and has no effect, period. Doesn't matter if there's no 'to hit roll', it's the range that's making it miss. i would play like this as well, as this seems a way of shooting 2 squads, and just didnt feel right when it cropped up in our gaming circle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168848-template-questions/#findComment-1992716 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chromedog Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Only if you touch the tank with the template as well. You don't have to be able to hurt it, but as long as it is touching the 'target unit', then any other unit under it gets hit as well. If the template can't reach, it misses. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168848-template-questions/#findComment-1992736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praeger Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 If your really desperate for a rules answer AND a fluff answer then think of it like this: NO - as per the rules the template still has to touch the target to fire: "...simply place the narrow end so that it is touching the base of the model firing it and the rest of the template covers as much of the TARGET unit as possible" No as per fluff - "The dread's automated targeting features homed in on the weakened armour of the tank, its main weapon unleashing its beam directly into its flank. All ranges where automaticly determined and weapons that could not hit the target shut down to conserve amunition. Within seconds the enemy had regroup and fired back" Remeber - if this WAS real life the dread would be fixing all its attention onto its target, not using the few seconds he has to fire at everything around him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168848-template-questions/#findComment-1993015 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agrab Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 here is the problem, the template auto hits, and the range auto misses so, which trumps i would say auto hit happens, as there is no miss/hit time in the flamers shooting phase thus, it is allowed Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168848-template-questions/#findComment-1993158 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmouredWing Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 here is the problem, the template auto hits, and the range auto missesso, which trumps i would say auto hit happens, as there is no miss/hit time in the flamers shooting phase thus, it is allowed I'd go with the 'No's out there. The thing is a template represents 2 things, it's identifies what is hit and it also identifies a range. So, if a dread is firing a lascannon & a flamer template then both have got to be at the same target and so for both to hit they've both got to be within range. If the flamer template doesn't reach then it's out of range and cannot be fired, regardless of what stands between the target and the weapon. The key is that you choose the target to fire the weapons at and that is the designated target that has to be within range. To fire at anything else would mean firing at 2 targets, something which a dread is not normally capable of. There's any number of fluff reasons why it should or shouldn't be the case but the rules do state that that the target must be within range if it isn't then no dice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168848-template-questions/#findComment-1993246 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agrab Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 here is the problem, the template auto hits, and the range auto missesso, which trumps i would say auto hit happens, as there is no miss/hit time in the flamers shooting phase thus, it is allowed I'd go with the 'No's out there. The thing is a template represents 2 things, it's identifies what is hit and it also identifies a range. So, if a dread is firing a lascannon & a flamer template then both have got to be at the same target and so for both to hit they've both got to be within range. If the flamer template doesn't reach then it's out of range and cannot be fired, regardless of what stands between the target and the weapon. The key is that you choose the target to fire the weapons at and that is the designated target that has to be within range. To fire at anything else would mean firing at 2 targets, something which a dread is not normally capable of. There's any number of fluff reasons why it should or shouldn't be the case but the rules do state that that the target must be within range if it isn't then no dice. it represents one thing, the area which is hit by the flame unless you can show me BRB about that being the range, with none listed, we must assume the range is infinite It can be fired, but it auto misses the target however, it can still hit what is within the template (think of it as scattering out of range, same basic concept) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168848-template-questions/#findComment-1993318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 however, it can still hit what is within the template (think of it as scattering out of range, same basic concept) No as flamer templates don't scatter. You can't fire the dread's weapons at two different targets. Thus if the flamer template fails to reach it's intended target, it doesn't hit anything else as a consolation prize. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168848-template-questions/#findComment-1993404 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agrab Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 however, it can still hit what is within the template (think of it as scattering out of range, same basic concept) No as flamer templates don't scatter. You can't fire the dread's weapons at two different targets. Thus if the flamer template fails to reach it's intended target, it doesn't hit anything else as a consolation prize. here is the problem the rules say that it shoots and that it hits anything under it, period thus, it shoots and hits anythign under it (this includes your own marines if you have them there) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168848-template-questions/#findComment-1993506 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleDV8 Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 The template is the 'range' of a flamer BRB pg27 Maximum range and pg.29. BRB pg. 15. "Check Range At least one target model must be within range....." The weapon does not fire. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168848-template-questions/#findComment-1993585 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agrab Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 The template is the 'range' of a flamer BRB pg27 Maximum range and pg.29.BRB pg. 15. "Check Range At least one target model must be within range....." The weapon does not fire. "any model that is found out of range of all of the models he can see in the target unit misses automatically" it still shoots and as it auto hits AND auto misses what the hell happens that is the question the weapon will shoot, no matter what and my position is that as a flamer, it auto hits, which trumps a general rule Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168848-template-questions/#findComment-1993610 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 If its out of range the template doesnt go down, see blast markers, they auto hit everything under the marker, but if its found to be out of range (before scater) then the marker doesnt go down at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168848-template-questions/#findComment-1993750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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