Template questions

[Agrab]

If its out of range the template doesnt go down, see blast markers, they auto hit everything under the marker, but if its found to be out of range (before scater) then the marker doesnt go down at all.

 

and what is the range of a flamer?

[nighthawks]

Praeger already hit on this but:

BRB P29 "the rest of the template covers as many models as possible in the target unit"

 

also P17 "any model that is found to be out of range of all the models he can see in the target unit misses automatically"

 

I think the rules here are clear, generally, though maybe not specifically. as the general case is "out of range does not hit" then the specific case should be as such also, as there is no statement to the contrary and the term "target unit" is used in the TEMPLATE description on P29.

[Frosty the Pyro]

If its out of range the template doesnt go down, see blast markers, they auto hit everything under the marker, but if its found to be out of range (before scater) then the marker doesnt go down at all.

 

and what is the range of a flamer?

the length of the template.

[ArmouredWing]

here is the problem, the template auto hits, and the range auto misses

so, which trumps

i would say auto hit happens, as there is no miss/hit time in the flamers shooting phase

thus, it is allowed

I'd go with the 'No's out there.

 

The thing is a template represents 2 things, it's identifies what is hit and it also identifies a range. So, if a dread is firing a lascannon & a flamer template then both have got to be at the same target and so for both to hit they've both got to be within range. If the flamer template doesn't reach then it's out of range and cannot be fired, regardless of what stands between the target and the weapon.

 

The key is that you choose the target to fire the weapons at and that is the designated target that has to be within range. To fire at anything else would mean firing at 2 targets, something which a dread is not normally capable of.

There's any number of fluff reasons why it should or shouldn't be the case but the rules do state that that the target must be within range if it isn't then no dice.

 

it represents one thing, the area which is hit by the flame

unless you can show me BRB about that being the range, with none listed, we must assume the range is infinite

It can be fired, but it auto misses the target

however, it can still hit what is within the template (think of it as scattering out of range, same basic concept)

Emperor's Throne! It's pretty obvious how badly you want your take on this to be right but the facts just don't stack up in your favour.

 

Stating that the range of a template weapon is "infinite" is not just a blatent attempt to bend the rules but it's just plain wrong. Apart from anything else there's no rule which states that template range is infinite so I'll stop you there with that fallacy right away.

 

I think the subject has been mulled over and the response has been pretty much overwhelming in favour that;

 

a) Template weapons have a range that is equal to the length of said template;

 

B) If something falls outside of that template length then it is out of range and so the weapon effectively does not hit target for whatever reason (misses/misfires/does not fire).;

 

c)The dreadnought can only fire at a single solitary target. There's no rules which state that it can split fire, which is what you are effectively doing if you choose to fire the melta at a vehicle and the flamer can only reach an intervening unit. The fact of this issue is that how do you prove that the flamer is aiming squarely at the target vehicle? What's to say that it isn't slightly askew as to cause additional wound on the intervening squad? So, one firing dreadnought can only fire on one target and, in the event that there's another enemy unit adjacent to the target that is within range, then you can mop up the excess but only in those circumstances (Hence within range of the designated target unit).

 

That's all there is to know. If you fire any other weapon at a target and it turns out that target is out of range then it effectively misses, you don't get a chance to switch to another target which is in range to resolve firing. It's not a difficult concept to grasp, tricky maybe, but generally people here seem to be of a similar opinion.

[karm]

Good Summary by ArmouredWing there. Basically I believe that the reason for this rule is purely for game balance but it kinda makes sense too. If your firing a lascannon from a dred at something 30" away and there is a squad of infantry in front of the dred, you cant 'attempt' to shoot at the tank with the flamer because it is blatantly obvious you are splitting fire and not firing at the tank, but firing at the infantry in front of the dread. This is no different regardless of the range you are shooting at, if its out of range, its out of range.

[Lord Humongous]

it represents one thing, the area which is hit by the flame

unless you can show me BRB about that being the range, with none listed, we must assume the range is infinite

It can be fired, but it auto misses the target

however, it can still hit what is within the template (think of it as scattering out of range, same basic concept)

 

Its in the entry for flamers etc where it says "range: template". It does NOT say "range: infinite (or whatever inches)" and then "type: template", excepting in the case of the inferno cannon, which actually does have the specific effect of stopping you from shooting at all if your target is not within 24", even if the template could then hit them.

[Brother Gothard]

FrostyThePyro has this one right. Let me expand on what he says.

 

First, I need some things from the rulebook.

 

This, AoBR book, pg 17:

All weapons have a maximum effective range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot. If a target is beyond this maximum range, the shot misses automatically. ... When you’re checking range, simply measure from each firer to the nearest visible model in the target unit. Any model that is found to be out of range of all of the models he can see in the target unit misses automatically – his shots simply do not reach.

 

This, AoBR book, pg 17:

To determine if the firing models have hit their target, roll a D6 for each shot that is in range.

 

And this, AoBR book, pg 29:

Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it and the rest of the template covers as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models. .... Any models fully or partially under the template are hit. ...

 

In order to determine if a weapon shoots at all, you first pick a target and check line of sight. If the Dreadnought has line of sight, it may fire. Then you check its range. If the Dreadnought`s flamer is in range, it may fire. How do you check range for a flamer? You place the template down. If the target is in range, then you roll to hit. With a flamer, instead of rolling, you place the template. This last part, placing the template instead of rolling, constitutes the firing of the flamer. Not the checking of range. You do not roll to hit, or any variation of determining a hit, for weapons that are not in range. They have no effect. They miss automatically. Thus, if the flamer is out of range, you do not place the template down to determine hits, and therefore no models, not even the intervening models between the Dread and the out of range tank, are hit at all. No one is hit by the template, because the flamer did not "roll to hit" because it was out of range.

 

This is not about splitting fire, its about what happens when weapons are out of range. What happens is nothing; they do not fire. You do not get to determine if anything - anything at all - is hit.

 

From Agrab:

"any model that is found out of range of all of the models he can see in the target unit misses automatically"

it still shoots

and as it auto hits AND auto misses

what the hell happens

 

that is the question

the weapon will shoot, no matter what

and my position is that as a flamer, it auto hits, which trumps a general rule

The weapon may still shoot, yes, but it will not get to determine hits, and thus the template will not go down. Just like out of range weapons fire, but they do not hit anything - not even intervening units between them and their target, if they are out of range. Nothing happens if a weapon is not in range.

[Agrab]

what i am trying to see is where the BRB says swhat the range of a template weapon is and nobody is adressing that

[Captain Malachi]

The bit where it says 'range: template'? Where's the confusion here?

[SeattleDV8]

I'll repeat what I said .

The template is the 'range' of a flamer.

BRB pg27 Maximum range "If the weapons range is given as "Template" then the weapon fires using the teardrop-shaped flamer template....."

and pg.29. "......by having the word "template" for their range instead of a number.

[Isiah]

Yep no confusion there. Template weapons' range is determined by the positioning of and area covered by the 'template'. And for reference sake it's just over 8.25" long for the green one, the old clear one is 1/8th" shorter :blink:.

 

Cheers

I

[Aidoneus]

Sorry, I only read the first few posts. Let me try to jump in with an unbiased analysis, and you all can take from it what you will.

 

I think the obviously relevant page of the BBB is page 17. There are two interesting rules there...

All weapons have a maximum effective range, which is the furtherest distance they can shoot. If a target is byond this maximum range, the shot misses automatically.

Any model that is found to be out of range of all of the models he can see in the target unit misses automatically - his shots simply do not reach.

 

Now, clearly these two sentences are meant for infantry models, who shoot 1 weapon each per turn. Thus, when the first quotation refers to weapons' distance, and the second quotation refers to models' distance, there is no contradiction. However, in the case of vehicles (and, interestingly, monstrous creatures), those two most definitely do NOT mean the same thing. Taking the MM/HF dread as an example, the MODEL will be in range of the enemy, thus satisfying quotation number 2, but the WEAPON will not be in range of the enemy, thus satisfying quotation number 1.

 

Looking at the vehicle and monstrous creature sections in the BBB, there are no more relevant rules. So which of the two above quotations trumps?

 

I think the easiest solution would be to say that BOTH requirements need to be met. They are both given, and are not mutually exclusive, so this seems to make the most sense. Interestingly, because the model requirement will always be met when the weapon requirement is met, the former is simply redundant on this reading. You might take that to mean that my "both" requirement cannot be what GW intended, but honestly I think they were just being redundant as a way of making sure they were clear. Since the stricter weapon requirement is stated first, it makes sense to say that the later model requirement was given just as a way of clarifying (although clearly, it caused more confusion than it avoided).

 

So that's my interpretation. Personally, I have no problem with following the model requirement only, but that would have to be a house rule. The OFFICIAL rules, while not 100% clear, seem to point towards the "both" (and, de facto, the weapon) requirement.

[Agrab]

Using the same book that aidoneus used (literally the same) i have noticed the following:

 

Page 58:"Must fire AT a single unit"

this allows for a chance that targeting one unit can hit another (so that is out of the way)

 

Page 27: "ranges are all given in inches"

this line shows that template is not the length range of the flamer, as template is not in inches (or for that matter a number)

 

Page 27:"if it says template for range then it uses tear drop..."

this merely means an indicatory marking

 

Page 29: "indicated by having the word template"

clearly means that this is an indicator

[Aidoneus]

Agrab, you're grasping at straws. That's ridiculous. When it says "range: template" it means the range is equal to the length of the template. That's obvious, and you're just trying to find some wording somewhere to twist around to argue with. Obviously they said range is given in inches just to indicate the unit for the number, so no one could argue (or could mistakenly think) that range: 24 meant 24 centimeters or 24 feet. Range: template is obviously the exception, in that you don't measure in inches, but rather just plop down the template, and that's your range. You KNOW that's how it worked, and it's OBVIOUS that's the intention. We all know GW doesn't write the most air-tight rules ever, but this is a GAME, so they shouldn't have to. Not every imperfectly-explained rule is therefore up for debate.

[Agrab]

Agrab, you're grasping at straws. That's ridiculous. When it says "range: template" it means the range is equal to the length of the template. That's obvious, and you're just trying to find some wording somewhere to twist around to argue with. Obviously they said range is given in inches just to indicate the unit for the number, so no one could argue (or could mistakenly think) that range: 24 meant 24 centimeters or 24 feet. Range: template is obviously the exception, in that you don't measure in inches, but rather just plop down the template, and that's your range. You KNOW that's how it worked, and it's OBVIOUS that's the intention. We all know GW doesn't write the most air-tight rules ever, but this is a GAME, so they shouldn't have to. Not every imperfectly-explained rule is therefore up for debate.

 

if you reread early i mentioned TECHNICALLY there is no listed range as the wording indicates it is technically not the distance

however, i am perfectly fine and agree that they intended not to allow this, was simply pointing out a technicality

[Grey Mage]

Well "technically" it has no range... and thus could never be in range, and therefore would never fire.

 

Alot of angry SoB players out there tonight... and some ork and SM players are screaming too.

[Agrab]

Well "technically" it has no range... and thus could never be in range, and therefore would never fire.

 

Alot of angry SoB players out there tonight... and some ork and SM players are screaming too.

 

i am actually fine with that view

get Aidoneus to stop killing me so much