Abaddon, is he worth the points?

[Xephis]

I started up a Chaos Army awhile ago and just really started to play. Right now my army is strongly melee based with Abaddon as the HQ choice and I have my army worshipping Khrone. Overall the army worked out fairly well. I fought against Black Templar in a 1000 point game, and Abaddon had 20 black templar attacking him at once and only took 2 wounds total. My terminators and him proceeded to destroy the 20 space marines and his commander. Though he killed a lot of things i found myself severely outnumbered. Is his OPness worth the lack of forces?

[Surreal Cruelty]

Did being out-numbered actually lose you the game?

 

It depends on the game. Most people will say no, he isn't worth the points. In 1k games, esp if they are objective based (where lack of troop picks will hurt), he probably isn't. I tend only to field him in bigger armies (1500+).

 

275 pts is a chaos lord or DP and another 10 CSM... or 2 deamon princes with wings (which a lot of poeple HATE facing in 1k games).

[Citizen Snips]

Abaddon and terminators at 1000 points is going to be more than half of your force. Besides that did you only have 2 troops? He gets better at higher games since his point cost is so high.

[Sons of Horus]

i'd field him at a 2k point game but never lower than that. the point cost is just too high for anything less.

[the jeske]

not worth it . in smalle games he costs too much and in bigger/normal sized games its better to have two units [like 2 dps] for more or less the same cost [thats not counting the transport +bodyguard . an abadon actually costs around 600-700pts].

[Zhukov]

No really he is not worth it. Only take him for fun.

[Corpse.]

In a smaller game where specialisation is difficult to ruin. If someone wasnt prepared to face a bunch of terminators (kinda rare), facing abbadon and his terminator pals would be hard to out-do. In games where they pack sufficient plasma, then that falls through.

 

One of the most durable characters in the game T5, eternal warrior at 4 wounds 2+/4+ he arguably -can- be as tough as a bloodthirster if you consider his 2+ save making up for lacking T6 (where str3 it wont matter anyways). Plus the ability to hide him inside units, and teleport him onto the table like a greater daemon of khorne.

 

If I hadnt made the comparison with the greater daemon of khorne, then it wouldnt occur to me more people take "Abbadons" then I first realised. He has initiative 6, and 6+ str8 attacks so he could actually beat up a bloodthirster of the same cost.

 

He's a beast, and after playing chaos daemons for a while I would say yes he is worth his points cost if a person would consider a greater daemon of khorne worthwhile.

[Night Stalker]

Bloodthirster have wings ...

[eyescrossed]

Night Stalker beat me.

[the jeske]

Bloodthirster have wings ...

QFT

and you spam them alonge side nurgle DPs and have the whole army in deep strike . abadon is a solo model[thats cost +200pts +the cost of bodyguard] . if someone tries to deep strike him this means a unit of 6/7 termiantors +him [probablly 6 to make it cheaper] he has a 50% chance of coming turn 2 . this means half of the time you will see him later. he does only stuff in hth , so each turn he is not in hth he wasted points . the comes the fact that if he is deep striking , then he is damn slow . most armies will just move away from him [or in case of chaos lash him away]. there is a big chance that this +500pts unit will never see combat .

 

no abadon is not good , just like tyfus or lucius or huron. but only the last two he costs almost twice as much as two DPs[more when you count the bodyguard you need to take with him] , only he is slower , is one target compering to two targets , doesnt have psychic powers [and am not just talking lash] its impossible to hide a unit of 6 terminators + abadon without putting the unit in a place where it does nothing and taking a LR ends up with a 600pts squad.

[Corpse.]

Hm yeah, but using a land raider (yes yes I know, for those who actually like land raiders) he gets 2 turn assault. Thirster with wings, comes in on turn 1, moves and assaults.

 

(though you could get 2 thirsters, some people like land raiders- different codexes)

 

Worth the points is a matter of opinion, but in the terms of pressure playing like Jeske speaks of (where you make use of everything every turn giving and recieving*taking* damage, offering bad choices for the opponent to make mistakes etc).

 

Abbadon is worth his points IMO, I didnt say he was easy to make use of though. He can charge and eliminate a good volume of guys and run them down with his 6 initiative+dice. On the other hand, could face a unit full of powerfists and his many benefits dont matter. Though for the cost, 2 daemon princes can be taken for double the wounds, T5, wings etc all included, for a very good deal. (That means princes are worth more then what they cost points wise) So abbadon in comparison may fall short, but that doesnt mean he isnt worth his cost if used right. (Like most models).

 

Not to confuse both sides and sort of mix them together a bit without a heated discussion splitting the topic.

 

(Edit)

-Also, abbadon can take down two HQ's that are not monstrous creatures/natural toughness 5+ solo, which would most likely cost as much as he does in the long run. So if you plan on two lords or something, you can save some space and take abbadon. (Though you lack rhino transportation)

[Night Stalker]

Hm yeah, but using a land raider (yes yes I know, for those who actually like land raiders) he gets 2 turn assault. Thirster with wings, comes in on turn 1, moves and assaults.

 

(though you could get 2 thirsters, some people like land raiders- different codexes)

 

Worth the points is a matter of opinion, but in the terms of pressure playing like Jeske speaks of (where you make use of everything every turn giving and recieving*taking* damage, offering bad choices for the opponent to make mistakes etc).

 

Abbadon is worth his points IMO, I didnt say he was easy to make use of though. He can charge and eliminate a good volume of guys and run them down with his 6 initiative+dice. On the other hand, could face a unit full of powerfists and his many benefits dont matter. Though for the cost, 2 daemon princes can be taken for double the wounds, T5, wings etc all included, for a very good deal. (That means princes are worth more then what they cost points wise) So abbadon in comparison may fall short, but that doesnt mean he isnt worth his cost if used right. (Like most models).

 

Not to confuse both sides and sort of mix them together a bit without a heated discussion splitting the topic.

 

(Edit)

-Also, abbadon can take down two HQ's that are not monstrous creatures/natural toughness 5+ solo, which would most likely cost as much as he does in the long run. So if you plan on two lords or something, you can save some space and take abbadon. (Though you lack rhino transportation)

 

Land Rider ? Great, so i now have to pay for 2 Thirsters to deliver one. Wonderful idea, you know ?

 

Abbadon can sweeping advance ? Didn't his armour prevent him from doing so ?

 

Yeah, compare them to lords. Point is, nobody take lords in power lists ...

 

It's not Warseer Corpse. There are people who actually answer the question.

 

Abbadon is not worth the points in comparition with other choices, hence is not worth the point. End of the story.

If he would ask, if Abbadon could be used - sure, nice model, and is not sucks too much. For fluffy list he is good to go.

[Corpse.]

Land Rider ? Great, so i now have to pay for 2 Thirsters to deliver one. Wonderful idea, you know ?

 

For people who like land raiders, not for everyone. :mellow: I recall some people like using plague-spear and khorne-spear (using a raider or even two full of a cult unit). So, saving 2 spots for abby isnt bad.

 

Abbadon can sweeping advance ? Didn't his armour prevent him from doing so ?

 

Shows how much I use Abbadon (and terminators). Still can consolodate and keep within 6", so still not too bad.

 

Yeah, compare them to lords. Point is, nobody take lords in power lists ...

 

Power lists is a matter of opinion, if someone wants to power list they pack some hardcore blast weaponry and a few lash sorc/princes and be good to go. Not everyone does that, and some do take two lord/sorc's and if they rather use abbadon, then I noted they are ok to do so since abbadon can take two down fairly decently for roughly the same cost.

 

It's not Warseer Corpse. There are people who actually answer the question.

 

No, not warseer, though its not relevent here and a level discussion is hard to manage with subjects like this deviating from the main topic. (Trying to keep it civil here)

 

Abbadon is not worth the points in comparition with other choices, hence is not worth the point. End of the story.

If he would ask, if Abbadon could be used - sure, nice model, and is not sucks too much. For fluffy list he is good to go.

 

Thats your opinion and its noted, but one persons opinion isnt the end-all opinion. Im trying to keep things on the level, no ill intent towards you. Cool?

[Xephis]

thank you all for your imputs. In the game I played i had him as a stand alone character, no bodyguards or anything, please note it was also my first game with this chaos army so if i made a huge mistake with that im sorry. I would also like to add, as one of you said, Abaddon took out the black templar comander and an entire squad with ease, so even though i coundlt bring in the extra comanders i found he was worth it. People kept talking about Bloodthirsters, i know you cuold have them, but in my CSM codec there is just the Summoned Greater Daemon. If i brought in a bloodthirster would i use the information from the Chaos Daemons codec, or what the summoned greater daemon is in my CSM one?

[chillin]

If i brought in a bloodthirster would i use the information from the Chaos Daemons codec, or what the summoned greater daemon is in my CSM one?

 

You would use the summoned GD from the csm codex. You can never use anything from another codex except in apoco games.

If in your game abby not only tied up but destroyed an entire BT squad plus a BT commander, by himself, he was indead worth it in that game.

Will he always be worth it ?? Don't know

[Seahawk]

I've always found using him worth it. He smashes, he shoots, everything dies near him and his terminators. But then, I'm no WAAC player, and I don't play against such people except in tournaments, where he smahes, shoots, and kills everything around him anyway.

 

please note it was also my first game with this chaos army so if i made a huge mistake with that im sorry.

Haha, never worry about that, nor apologize! It's your army and your games, only restricted by the rules in the books, not peoples' opinions. It's only a mistake if it didn't work. Learn how to use him effectively and you'll already be on your way to a better player. If he doesn't work out, then use something else. It's all simple, really :).

[Captain Idaho]

I would like to support Corpse. in his defence of Abaddon's worth, since he has been fighting it solo until Seahawk turned up!

 

Speaking from a Space Marines point of view, I can say that if Abaddon plus a unit of Chaos Marines came rushing towards me in a Landraider I would be fairly worried. He will basically protect those Chaos Marines by killing anything they come up against. How can I counter attack that?

 

Added bonus is the Chaos Marines are a scoring unit, so killing them off plus Abaddon camped on my own objective is paramount, and kinda impossible.

 

Make the right list around him and I think he is very dangerous.

[Xephis]

The advantage of that first was, it was all of our first games. there was one experiences IG player but that was it. Now my BT friend is making an Abaddon killer army it would seem. So things should get interesting. As for the Bloodthirster, Chillin said that i would use the Greater Daemon from the CSM codec, but it doesnt say it has wings on it in the special rules and what not. So because the model has wings on it i can use it with wings rules just because they are there?

[DuskRaider]

I personally don't see the point of using ANY ICs in smaller games. I cringe at the thought of even bringing one to an 1850 pt game, for that matter. Most of the time they're too much of a point sink I can throw into something else. Termie Lord or a Nurgle DP and I'm set.

[Corpse.]

Just tossing this out there, thanks for support if its meant as support. Dont mind it much, some guys may like me less then they like others, I think I'll be ok. (Not trying to taunt anything - honest)

 

On average, 18 attacks from abbadon to kill a bloodthirster, whilea bloodthirster needs about 15 attacks to kill abbadon. While abbadon strikes first in most rounds (excluding charging/being in cover when charged, and the fearless losing combat armor saves 2+ and 3+). Abbadon can get 17 or so attacks in 3 rounds, and thats rolling a 1 in one round, a 6 in the second, and a 4 in the third.

 

Fairly even matched, more towards the bloodthirster since he is more consistant with his attacks, wings, and slightly more likely to get wounds on abbadon each round forcing him to take fearless saves.

 

(little math-hammer, not purely accurate and abbadon's reroll to wound taken into account dividing by 12, multiplying by 11)

 

 

BT charges:

6/4/3.33/1.66

 

BT:

5/3.33/2.77/1.38 (tripple this for dead abba, excluding the self wound)

 

 

Abba:

Rand 1/.5self wound

 

Abba:

2(6)/3/2.75/1.375

 

Abba:

3(7)/3.5/3.2/1.6

 

Abba:

4(8)/4/3.66/1.83

 

Abba:

5(9)/4.5/4.125/2.0625 (Double this for dead daemon = 18 attacks)

 

Abba:

6(10)/5/4.583/2.2916

 

..

 

In terms of squad killing, abbadon is good, bloodthirster can sweeping advance, abbadon may get higher average attacks then the daemon from time to time while the daemon rolls 2D6 for penetrating vehicles. Two very different delivery systems for GD deep striking in first turn with many others, while abba can also deep strike, doing so with a unit, be in a raider, or follow in a unit/behind a vehicle. Abbadon arrives later normally, but can avoid fire longer being inside units.

 

Hopefully this post is as level grounded on the comparison, better then my previous tries I hope? Can leave the BT/Abba discussion from this point. (Originally I tried to find a close example to abbadon to figure out if he's worth the cost). For a bloodthirster lover that doesnt mind abbadons shortcomings/delivery system, he'll be alright. For those who dont accomodate abbadons requirements, he isnt such a good choice. (Power builds dont include such things for abbadon, especially the favorite power builds).

 

I think that sort of sums it up in one post, even if I am repeating some details it saves people from looking between posts. So dont get mad if I am repeating things, not trying to beat a dead horse.. At least not intentionally.

[Xephis]

the thing with the bloodthirsters is that i would have to roll a D6 to bring him in right? so potentially he wouldnt be in the game til much later. Though if i try deep striking abaddon the same problem could/has occured for me. Im thinking once my friends start going into bigger armies ill have a much larger variety of strategies that i could use. Right now im looking at making a Daemon Prince and Bloodthirster list to add some variety. Now i just need to obtain the money to do this

[the jeske]

m8 of course abadon kills more [when he actually gets in to hth , whats not obvious] mainlly because his units costs twice or three times as many pts as a bloodthirester. The game is not about one unit fighting a single other unit and rolling dice . its about movment , spaming stuff [because its easier to win when you overload your opponents abilty to counter stuff , while at the same time stoping him from doing the same to you] . in a lets say 1750 pts army most good armies are going to be able to contain abadon [just like it does the same to nighbringer and simiular units] , but it may not be able to counter 2 thiresters and two nurgle DPs . To make an example . Dreads and defilers are rather sub par options , if one takes one or two they dont become more playable , but when you run 3 defilers 2 dps and 2dreads you get a semi compatetive list . when you take abadon you cant do that . why? well because even if you go the zilla way , abadon will be either slower [footslogging] , cost more then DPs [specially when joined by a bodyguard] and is a single target/single counter when compering to two DPs.

 

 

Speaking from a Space Marines point of view, I can say that if Abaddon plus a unit of Chaos Marines came rushing towards me in a Landraider I would be fairly worried. He will basically protect those Chaos Marines by killing anything they come up against. How can I counter attack that?

on your turn one 2 drop pods fall down . pop the LR . if you started abadon does nothing for 3 turns . if you didnt he does nothing for 2 turns . after that you are mech [because there are no good non mecha lists] and you avoid him for the rest of the game while taking pot shots at his unit [4 termis] . and thats only sm . csm will lash him till the end of game , he will never ever get in to hth . eldar/tau?? no comments here . khan builds will run rings around him . he will stomp shriek lists , but hth armies are always problem for those lists.

 

For people who like land raiders, not for everyone. happy.gif I recall some people like using plague-spear and khorne-spear (using a raider or even two full of a cult unit). So, saving 2 spots for abby isnt bad.

yes but taking abadon means you are one troop choice shorter or have to run 1 HQ , also with abadon in its impossible to build a LR rush at 1500 .

[chillin]

So because the model has wings on it i can use it with wings rules just because they are there?

No, the generic greater daemon can't have wings, he's just like his discription in the csm dex, you can add nothing. If the model has wings that's fine, you can use the model, but the wings will mean nothing, he can't fly. One of the reasons I never take GD's.

[chillin]

Now my BT friend is making an Abaddon killer army it would seem. So things should get interesting.

That's great, now next time you play against him don't take Abby, take a cheapy unmarked sorc w/ wings and doombolt who you don't care if he lives or dies. Then max out on troops or shooting or something. Don't tell anybody what you are doing beforehand. Not only will it be fun (and funny ;) ) but you will teach your friend an valuable lession, "don't build a list to counter another list" :P

[Xephis]

that is a good idea, ill have to proxy all that stuff though lol. and as for him not knowing, he trolls this forum like there is no tomorrow and already has stumbled onto this whole thread