Abaddon, is he worth the points?

[Surreal Cruelty]

Then just don't tell him which list you intend to play ahead of time =)

[Corpse.]

Yeah, abbadon needs a space to be made for if he's included in any list. He can pull his weight, I did say there are better options for the same cost. Though if you want a good sucker punch in the right spot and hide it well, it can also sway the game like the superior options could.

 

Just a thing about him being "worth" his cost, not if he's actually feasible at lower points games. I can imagine him though being a menace in a 500 pt game if someone wanted to be a bit mean against a list thats unprepared... (1000 pts would be pushing it, someone would have to be REALLY unprepared to face abbadon and lose horribly).

 

Agreed with ya mostly Jeske, though now after playtesting abbadon three sets of best 5 out of 9 fights, abbadon didnt come up too short. So I'll be trying him out in a few games if I remember to bring him. (poor guy has not seen a game in something 5+ years, lol)

 

-Special Edit:

Warptime Slaanesh marked C:SM prince ended up being a very hard fight for abbadon. (Same initiative, otherwise it falls a bit short with abby hitting first). So, two warptime princes really cut down the potential, and if two of those are facing a bloodthirster you will have a decent chance to come out on top.

[Haakon Ironheart]

I play a lot with Abby nowdays and he is performing in an excellent way. I always play 1500p games as I am preparing for this year's GT. He is the only unit who can beat alone an eldar flying seer council in close combat and in a tournament you see alot of these nasty flying nightmares... He rarely gets killed so your opponent rarely gets full points for him too. I found in the hard way that he is more effective than any 2 DPs (I hear Jeske screming now I know) because DPs get killed by bolter fire a lot(assuming you use the BIG models). Especially in a tournament setting where you face good opponents. Every good Eldar and Marine player I know is afraid of him because their wraithlords,falcons, Command Squads, Special characters and seer councils mean nothing to him. Put him in any fight and you are going to survive and come as the winner most of the time. In the fifth edition where the objectives and kill points are the most important thing he is sure to help. Either by contesting an objective or by surviving. He does not have to bring his points back. The game is a lot more tactical than before. If you put him in a LR with a berseker squad and he comes on the 3rd or even 4th turn he will still be able to turn the tide of the battle contesting objectives, killing stuff and most of the time his bersekers will capture another objective. You have to play clever. Just place the objectives near to each other. Games of 40k now can be won actually by having less points than your opponent in the end! Play as you would in chess or in stratego. Sacrificing sth to gain the advantage in the crucial point. Actually I believe that keeping the army in reserve and most of the time playing second is the way to play Chaos in the 5th edition, assuming you are playing a mechanized force with Abby as its HQ choise. Bring the fight to the place YOU want to fight. Kill a few units, take or contest some obj by using full force and have some deep striking oblit. for confusing your opponent and destroy some of his heavy support. Thats my two cents...

[the jeske]

I found in the hard way that he is more effective than any 2 DPs (I hear Jeske screming now I know) because DPs get killed by bolter fire a lot(assuming you use the BIG models

am not a math hammer guy , but how do two DPs [most of the time nurgle or slanesh] die to bolter fire in 1500 games? also yeah in my games DPs and oblits die all the time , thats normal people try to kill them because if they dont they lose real bad . An abadon can be avoided or countered with 1/5th the points . you can actually win because of not shoting at his unit after poping the LR.

Every good Eldar and Marine player I know is afraid of him because their wraithlords,falcons, Command Squads, Special characters and seer councils mean nothing to him

if someone is trying to take out a hth unit in hth then he is doing something wrong , yes out of all IC/HQs the only one that has good chance of killing abadon is a hth tyrant [only no man plays with those]. on the :cuss side. how does a falcon with a treat range of 24" or 36 with engines [ok maybe not in 1500] has nothing to abadon ? unless someone , I dont know, tries to tank shock abadon or something . abadon has 0 way of catching a falcon [while costing more or less the points ].

also command squad and good tournament list/players B)

 

The game is a lot more tactical than before

thats not true , most of the time is a huge melee in the middle that follow two turns of intensive shoting and counter units wiping each other out . true LoS and size squad dealt with the tactic side [or the strategic side , w40k was never a very tactical game to begin with] of the game in 5th ed.

If you put him in a LR with a berseker squad and he comes on the 3rd or even 4th turn he will still be able to turn the tide of the battle contesting objectives, killing stuff and most of the time his bersekers will capture another objective.

some games end in turn 4/5 . if he comes on 4th you just played the game with a 600 pts handicap . If you can still win against good build lists and good players , then kudos to you . I know , I cant.

Either by contesting an objective or by surviving.

or he is getting lashed whole game , or slogges after his LR got poped . Or he gets relocated with eldrad [and then the LR poped what means even more runing] . If a list allows a unit to drive 24" without a counter [and in 1500 you will not fit 2 LR units +enough troops+abadon, so its really a single unit] , then someone plays a wrong army at a tournament.

 

 

Kill a few units, take or contest some obj by using full force and have some deep striking oblit.

how can you fit a LR rush build , abadon and oblits in the same list ? I cant fit oblits without cuting on troops in 1850pts LR rush builds.

[Zhukov]

Games of 40k now can be won actually by having less points than your opponent in the end! Play as you would in chess or in stratego. Sacrificing sth to gain the advantage in the crucial point. Actually I believe that keeping the army in reserve and most of the time playing second is the way to play Chaos in the 5th edition, assuming you are playing a mechanized force with Abby as its HQ choise. Bring the fight to the place YOU want to fight. Kill a few units, take or contest some obj by using full force and have some deep striking oblit. for confusing your opponent and destroy some of his heavy support. Thats my two cents...

 

Try that against me... I will happily exploit the fact that you play with a lot of less points then me. And dont compare wh40 with chess or stratego (I play both too), because then you are doing something wrong. If someone makes an offer in chess, he already calculated that it will bring him an advantage. Yes calculate, because there is not any luck involved and there is luck in wh40k. Same with stratego, no luck involved because there a no dice, and besides that you play MIRROR matches. You both have exactly the same pieces to play with. In WH40k there are much more randomn factors and there the Abby build has some really bad points.

[chillin]

Try that against me... I will happily exploit the fact that you play with a lot of less points then me.

 

I don't think he is saying that he would take less points then you. I think he is saying that you can lose more pts then your opponent (durning the game) and still win (by objectives or whatever)

[Hydra Bait]

Abby does handle high-toughness MCs like Great Unclean Ones, T7 Carnifexes and Wraithlords very well. But a pair of Daemon Princes could arguably handle them just as easily at the same price

[Zhukov]

don't think he is saying that he would take less points then you. I think he is saying that you can lose more pts then your opponent (durning the game) and still win (by objectives or whatever)

 

I was hinting at keeping things in reserves... but maybe one could classify playing with Abby as playing with less points too haha

[Haakon Ironheart]

Though some of the comments sound to me as ironic I will try not to get insulted :) and instead I will try to clarify things a bit...My current list (1500p) is sth like this...

 

Abby

Landraider

2 chaos marines squads in rhinos with undivided icon,meltas and power fist champion

1 berseker squad with power fist champion

1 temicide squad

2 Oblits

 

I still have to lose to a space marine player(chaos or loyal) and won most of the games against tournament Eldar (very good players, experienced and in top 30 in UK GT). Against mechanized orcs no defeat, I have not played yet against Imperial Guard. In over thirty games Abby was not killed...My previous roster with DPs and more oblits enjoyed some success but this roster suits me more. To the point every one in my gaming group changed their negative view to Abby. Most of my group play 40k for more than 10 years and I play for about 16. The game becomes now a mellee in the centre if you allow it to become like this. Games are now won with the placing of objectives and deployment plays a huge part. Going second and most of the time in reserve keeps my opponent guessing and confused. If he comes closer, I chose the point and hit him with all the army, if he stays back, I sacrifice the termies and the oblits and destroy the things that can destroy my LR. With these threats over, then the game become easy...Land Raider cannot be destroyed and Abby is doing his job. Bersekers are unstoppable as they were always meant to be. My chaos marines in rhinos (they are a blessing) never disembark before all of my army is in the table(that is never before Abby arrives from reserve). Most of the time using the terrain they just move where I want them and they support Abby's attack with close bolter-melta fire. That way you can guarrantee at least a draw...That is my experience at least. I am not saying I am the 40k Napoleon but I think dear Abby is a lot better than our DPs...I hate HQs that die to Bolter fire...

 

PS. Lash builds are not our only way to go. Trust Abby and he will surprise you. Even if he rolls a one, it is a pleasure to see 30 orcs around him not killing him. It kind reminds me of the good old days of Ragnar Blackmane - the unkillable killing machine that he was in 2nd edition...Old man's rant I hear you saying... ;)

[the jeske]

In over thirty games Abby was not killed

m8 your not getting it . if you play in a tournament and someone tries to kill a abadon [or night bringer or a unit like this] , then your opponent is making a huge mistake . the trick is not to kill abadon the trick is to blow up the LR [and you run a single one] and either avoid abadon or control him with stuff like lash .

 

Games are now won with the placing of objectives and deployment plays a huge part.

that depends on the number objective counters rolled true , but generally even if there are only 3 a list with more troops and more unit does better . and power unit lists always are short on those.

 

Going second and most of the time in reserve keeps my opponent guessing and confuse

well you just wrote how your list works and where you play and with what list , so the surprise element is gone now .

 

If he comes closer, I chose the point and hit him with all the army, if he stays back, I sacrifice the termies and the oblits and destroy the things that can destroy my LR. With these threats over, then the game become easy...Land Raider cannot be destroyed and Abby is doing his job

but your runing a smaller number of counter units then your opponent [+you are never sure to see the oblits+single termicid on the same turn , you may well end up with the LR coming out of the reservs before your counter units arrive ] . also when runing 1 termi unit and 1 oblit unit you really have to always land right on target or your toast[and I dont mean the termicid dieing they always die in the end] . I just know thats its impossible to counter 2 oblit units and 2 termicid squads or 2x2 attackbikes [that can be in outflank too] or drop pods[you dont have to use the drop pod assault rule]with dreads/sternguard with just two units, in an optimal situation you will destroy one of such units and this means there other one is still there[having the same chance to destroy a LR as your own 2 counter units] to hit your LR.

 

I'm not going to comment on deployment because most armies have set up deployments for different scenarios and different terrain

 

PS. Lash builds are not our only way to go. Trust Abby and he will surprise you. Even if he rolls a one, it is a pleasure to see 30 orcs around him not killing him. It kind reminds me of the good old days of Ragnar Blackmane - the unkillable killing machine that he was in 2nd edition...Old man's rant I hear you saying...

 

yes, lash build are not the only way to go , but they are played a lot and armies that are based around one power unit are hurt more by those then the normal 4 troops lists. a double lash will be able to keep your whole army of objectives for at least 3 turns and your at least 1 turn in reserv.

 

 

well I started playing in the begining of 2ed . and best thing I remember about it is 20 WG terminators covering the whole deployment zone in cyclon missle launcher templates all before the game starts because of strategy cards.

[Captain Idaho]

m8 your not getting it . if you play in a tournament and someone tries to kill a abadon [or night bringer or a unit like this] , then your opponent is making a huge mistake . the trick is not to kill abadon the trick is to blow up the LR [and you run a single one] and either avoid abadon or control him with stuff like lash .

 

But you are forgetting that avoiding a Landraider borne unit and character on a 6'x4' table isn't always possible. If you can't blow up the Landraider easily, you have to put more and more effort into it which means you're not attacking the other units in the army. You're talking as if it is elementary to click your fingures and the Landraider is destroyed and Abaddan is stranded. It only takes 1 movement phase and Abaddon can charge next turn. 12" 1st turn movement which then destroyed through luck or whatever, 2" disembark, 6" move, 6" charge = 26" range reach! All we need is a single turn and Abaddon is in combat.

 

I really think people need to step outside their comfort zone when it comes to 40K. Really, it isn't an automatic win against such an army as posted by Haakon Ironheart. I hope to see in this year's GT that the top lists aren't as dominating as people think.

[the jeske]

If you can't blow up the Landraider easily, you have to put more and more effort into it which means you're not attacking the other units in the army.

if someone plays a list like that and some people still play LR rush builds at 1500 and you have problems with countering a LR then against a LR rush army [double the LR] you have an auto lose match up . I would never take an army to a big tournament [where the chance of playing lists like DW or LR rush are much bigger then in smaller ones] , its asking for trouble.

 

 

It only takes 1 movement phase and Abaddon can charge next turn. 12" 1st turn movement which then destroyed through luck or whatever, 2" disembark, 6" move, 6" charge = 26" range reach! All we need is a single turn and Abaddon is in combat.

yes thats all true . adadon can do that when your opponent is static . only now good army right now is static , even IG will do fish of fury slowing him down for 1 turn .

[MasterOfDisaster]

i enjoy taking abadon in 1500+ games. but to tell you the truth, he doesn't get fired upon that often...alot of people at my GW either underestimate him, or find something else interesting to shoot at. Abbadon has seen combat in every game and has never lost. In the 4 years i have been playing Chaos, not once has he fallen. I think that says something about him... I enjoy taking him with lightning claw terminators, which 1. provide him with a meat shield while he moves up, and 2. get 4 attacks on the charge each!