Devastators and shooty dreads

[Giga]

Alright, so my local store is slowly gravitating towards 1850 pts as standard for both tournaments and friendly battles (so far it's been 1500). Since I'm sort of an earth-oriented player (and my opponents being mostly fire philosophy), this mainly means I get 300 points to spend on shooty stuff.

 

On one side, I like the idea of devastator squads, because they add more bodies to my army, and because they have a very versatile choice of heavy weapons (most units are limited in the long-range heavy weapon options, while the devastators can have them all (missile launchers, plasma cannons & lascannons are all available to them)), and I love being flexible, especially when it comes to shooting MEQ.

 

However, I also find the devastators HORRIBLY overpriced. 15 points for a missile launcher is something I could accept, but 25 points for a plasma cannon and the whooping 35 for a lascannon? It just doesn't seem cost effective, even when you consider one of those weapons can fire at BS5. Unlike tanks, the devastators have a leadership value, which makes them not so reliable even with stubborn. Also, anyone can kill devastators, while only high strength or specialized stuff can destroy a non-light vehicle.

 

So I'm thinking of getting my plasma cannons through shooty dreadnoughts. A venerable dread with a plasma cannon costs 175 points, has BS5, can move and shoot, doesn't suffer from leadership, should theoretically survive longer then other vehicles, and can be used as a tarpit for infantry. A regular dread with same weaponry is even cheaper, and depending on your opponent's luck might survive just as well as a venerable dread. What I'm wondering about however, is whether its worth giving him a twinlinked autocannon or a missile launcher on the other arm? Have any of you guys tried this? I haven't, yet, and must admit I haven't seen many people sporting shooty dreads.

 

So I'm looking for opinions. What would you guys say is the better way to get those plasma cannons/missile launchers? How many of you have seen 100% shooty dreads being used to great effect?

[Firedrake28]

If you're looking to add plasma cannons to your army, it's likely because you want to take out heavily armored infantry units and still maintain the ability to threaten and harass light and medium armored vehicles. In this case, a missile launcher can help quite a bit, as you'll be able to throw a krak missile into units of Marines, or a second blast template into horde style units. The krak missile option also makes your Dread even better against vehicles. The autocannon probably isn't as good an idea if only because you already have a high Ballistic Skill, so you'll benefit less from taking a twin-linked weapon than you would a high BS missile launcher.

 

On the flip side of the coin though, hanging onto your Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon can (and often does, in my experience) come in very handy, especially if your opponents like to use Outflank to get at your firing line from the sides. Since you're an earth-style player, I suggest you maybe spend your points on extra armor, or even a heavy flamer instead of a missile launcher. After all, the majority of your list is geared toward shooting, so a small loss in potential firepower on one unit shouldn't make a huge difference.

[kaiserstole20]

I prefer a DCCW/HF on my dreads. As far as the plasma cannon, I find the BS5 on the venerable Dread just doesn't make that much of a difference to warrant the extra cost. I know there's other benefits but with a plasma cannon I almost always go the cheap route. My setup: Standard Dread, Plasma Cannon, DCCW/HF.

[Jackelope King]

My otherwise-standard dreads usually wear a Plasma Cannon. When we're talking scatter dice, that extra inch of a safety net often isn't really worth the points (115 for a regular dread with a Plasma Cannon vs. 175 for a venerable dread with the same). And I'd really almost always keep the DCCW around in this sort of army. If people are charging your fire base, a couple of guard-dog Dreads really can make them second guess, especially if those guard dogs are also packing heavy flamers to boot (and still managing to be 50 points cheaper than a plasma cannon venerable).

 

As for the Devastators, honestly, the only configuration that even comes close to being cost-effective in my mind is the 4x Missile Launcher squad. Lascannons are overpriced and really only worth it against Monstrous Creatures. Multi-Meltas aren't too scary in the hands of a sit-back-and-shoot unit, and you can get them so much more cheaply and in the hands of more effective units like Bikes and Speeders. Missile Launchers actually play nicely with the ablative wounds you buy for the squad to protect your missile launchers, helping to thin out hordes with Frag shots while still being able to protect against big MCs and light vehicles.

[brgerkng]

I used devastators a bit in 4th, and only recently started using them again in 5th. Missile launchers are nice and cheep. Plasma and Lascannons can be powerful but very expensive. I've been trying a gunline list at 1850 with 3 dev squads. 8 men each, one squad with four plasma cannons, one with four lascannons, and one with four missile launchers. The fire power is nasty but expensive. Outside of this list I'm not sure about dev squads overall. Personally I like taking tanks in my heavy support slots.

 

An alternative is to try a 5 man sternguard squad with 2 heavy weapons. I run a 5 man sternguard squad with 2 plasma cannons and its effective. Its slightly cheaper than than a similar dev squad and you get guys with the special ammo as well as 2 attacks each.

[Vel'Cona]

Agree w/ brgerkng on the Sternguard. It's usually better to run min size SG with x2 heavy over the similar number of Devastators. x2 PC in a large squad of Servitors is pretty cheap too, tho you lose accuracy and they HAVE to get cover by some method.

If you're gonna go Dreads, and not DP, PC is a great choice. Though in the current codex flow I believe Dreads are better used for close rather than long range support.

Devastators can be really good as an anti-horde firebase with x4 HB, and it's not that expensive either. Though for my money, a Dakka Pred is very inexpensive, and surprisingly survivable with a similar firepower output.

[Ming]

I agree on the sterns. I was poking around the math last night, and a sternguard unit can have 2 HWs about 10 points each cheaper than devs, but all bolters have special ammo, and you can take combi weapons, all stern get 2 attacks in CC. For the same price of a 5 man dev squad with 4 PCs (and 6 cc attacks), you can like get a 5 man stern squad with 2 PCs, 2 combimeltas, special ammo, a PW, and 10+/- cc attacks. You can imagine that as a purist trying not to mix my 3rd co with support from the 1st co, but trying to max on killhammer abilities, I'm torn! The only downside is that the stern do not have the extra tool the dev serg has to allow one dev weapon to fire at bs5 rather than 4. Big deal. Stern and Van are the hidden cheese of SM dex lists. Gotta have em!

[Warp Angel]

I agree on the sterns. I was poking around the math last night, and a sternguard unit can have 2 HWs about 10 points each cheaper than devs, but all bolters have special ammo, and you can take combi weapons, all stern get 2 attacks in CC. For the same price of a 5 man dev squad with 4 PCs (and 6 cc attacks), you can like get a 5 man stern squad with 2 PCs, 2 combimeltas, special ammo, a PW, and 10+/- cc attacks. You can imagine that as a purist trying not to mix my 3rd co with support from the 1st co, but trying to max on killhammer abilities, I'm torn! The only downside is that the stern do not have the extra tool the dev serg has to allow one dev weapon to fire at bs5 rather than 4. Big deal. Stern and Van are the hidden cheese of SM dex lists. Gotta have em!

 

Look at the Killhammer article on "Why Bigger Squads are Better" and evaluate whether or not you want to use 5 man squads with 4 heavy weapons. Dreadnaughts are about as expensive, but with less firepower when equipped for ranged support, though they can be made venerable and have better BS.

 

I prefer my Firebases to be land speeders and thunderfires these days (Sternguard are gone) for the cost-to-firepower ratio. The total K is a tad lower for the speeders, but the D, properly deployed and in the right army combination, is a wash or even circumstantially higher.

[gdeathlegion]

I occasionally field a dev squad with 3 H.Bolters and a Plasma Cannon at eight men total. Against certain armies, it is quite effective. But for a decent firebase, look no further than a landspeeder squadron of 3 typhoons with heavy flamers, can kill ANY infantry squad and can put 6 strength 8 krak missles out.

[Koremu]

Devastators are indeed overpriced. Their Heavy Weapons should cost only the same as the Sternguard ones do. As it stands, compare 5 Sternguard with 2 Lascannon to 5 Devastators with 2 Lascannon. The Sternguard have 3 lots of special ammo, better Ld, 4 extra CC attacks and are cheaper.

 

Sadly (and it is sad, as Devastators should be the mainstay unit they are, by the fluff, supposed to be), Devs are just too ineffective.

[Cadarn]

I never put Plasma cannons in my Devs. I'm not a fan of small blast unless in numbers, as I suffer too much from bad scatter rolls. With Plasma cannons you're often going to be shooting against small units of elite infanty. Very easy to scatter too much as miss everything. I'd be more tempted if it weren't for the price.

 

I run my devs with missile launchers, and possibly one lascanon if I have the points spare. Good for whittling down MEQ and hitting armour. The Lascannon usually benefits from the auspex, especially against vehicles or 2+ armour. They can still struggle at times. But if you get them in a good position then they will be a real thorn in your opponent's side , forcing him to devote resources into killing them. I love using them for popping transports at long range, stranding the occupants in the open to be cut down over the rest of the game while they attempt to reach their destination.

 

Devs are simple but effective. With vehicles, especially tanks, you are always balancing the option of whether to move or let rip with your guns. With devs, you put them in place and allow them to dominate a section of the table.

[Skoby]

Ive seen someone use two standard dreads with plasma cannons + TL autocannon to great effect, if you have the FOC spaces available they are only marginally more expensive than a 10man dev squad with 4 ML and cheaper than 2ML+2PC, for that price you get 4 autocannon shots (twinlinked) and 2 plasmacannon shots, or 2ML, 2PC shots. Each choice has their own advantages and disadvantages, personally I love dreads so I'm going to try the combination for myself, along with a couple of dakka preds it should give the opponent tough decisions on how to use anti armour.

[Woz]

A venerable dread with a plasma cannon costs 175 points, has BS5, can move and shoot, doesn't suffer from leadership, should theoretically survive longer then other vehicles, and can be used as a tarpit for infantry.

 

You can get a 5 man devastator squad with 3 Plasma Cannons (one of which fires at BS 5) for 165 points.

 

Admittedly they can't move and shoot and don't have a DCC but that's not their job. Importantly they won't die to a single lascannon shot unlike the Dread and don't use up an Elites slot (arguably more valuable that Heavy). Keep them well back and they're worth it if you're playing MEQ.

 

Five man Sternguard with two PC at 145 pts is something I haven't play but worth considering given the three bolters can fire Kraken rounds at 30"

[Giga]

The problem with 5 men devastator squad is that they lack ablative wounds. As soon as they take some wounds, your expensive heavy weapons will be put in jeopardy.

 

Not to mention a 5 men squad is an easy kill point, and therefore a liability in KP games.

[Warp Angel]

A venerable dread with a plasma cannon costs 175 points, has BS5, can move and shoot, doesn't suffer from leadership, should theoretically survive longer then other vehicles, and can be used as a tarpit for infantry.

 

You can get a 5 man devastator squad with 3 Plasma Cannons (one of which fires at BS 5) for 165 points.

 

Admittedly they can't move and shoot and don't have a DCC but that's not their job. Importantly they won't die to a single lascannon shot unlike the Dread and don't use up an Elites slot (arguably more valuable that Heavy). Keep them well back and they're worth it if you're playing MEQ.

 

Five man Sternguard with two PC at 145 pts is something I haven't play but worth considering given the three bolters can fire Kraken rounds at 30"

 

The 5 man devastator squad may not die to a single lascannon shot, but they are vulnerable to:

 

Lasguns

Bolters

Heavy Bolters

Shuriken Catapults

Shootas

Big Shootas

Flamers

Heavy Flamers

Close Combat from just about anything

 

All in a way that Dreadnaughts aren't. They can also fail a leadership check and run off the table.

 

In my experience, Lascannons are easier to control and kill than any of the above.

[lordwoody]

Hi

 

I have 2 standard dreads both armed with 2 twin autocannons, these serve me well as they can hurt most things (4 strength 7 shots that normally all hit) and at least damage if not destroy enemy tanks. Devs are just to exspensive and always look like lictor or assasin bait to me

[Cyberdog]

I recently started to use 4*missile launcher devastators and several meatbags additionally... They never failed me... Of course you can not kill LR with them but all other venicles - be ware!

[Grey Mage]

Well at about 250pts you could always run three missile launchers and a lascannon, and then depending on the battle you could combat squad for split-fire style abilities, with the lascannon at BS 5 in one squad and three missile launchers in the other squad.

 

Ive also seen amazing things done with fourxheavy bolters in a squad of Devastators. Whole units just dissapeared.

[DerekLee688]

Dread of any kind with PC/DCCW isn't my cup of tea. Too many points sunk into a single SMALL template. I've had opponents simply use 2" spacing to ensure I've only killed 1 Tac marine, a higher BS only reinforces this. Against anything else besides MEQ you shoudn't have to worry about spacing too much. I'd just assume not run a Dread with TLAC/PC because a spaced MEQ sqad only fears scattering, any other army would fear that thing like the plague though. But that's baised on my experiences.

 

IMO ML's should be left to LS Typhoons, Terminators, and Dev. squads for practical uses. A ML on a Dread only nets you one shot that isn't that great of a horde weapon unless spamed. S4 AP6 is a sucky thing to spend a Min. 115pts. for. I run mech. lists meaning my free Tac ML's don't shoot too many times in 7 turns or less, but love it as a weapon of opportunity.

 

Sternguard seem like the most visious Devistators to me. Doubleing your standard attacks while giving special ammo to everybody else Nastificates them ungodly like. However, 25pts. vs. 16pts. for extra bodies is a steep price to pay. You can't look at Sternguard like Devistators; 5 sternguard with heavy weapons can spend a turn shooting at a vehicle/dread/defiler, but a 10 man Squad shouldn't. Five men with Lascannons/ML are cheaper than their Devistator equivilent, where a ten man squad should have a HF(s) or PC(s) to increase their horde/MEQ killing potential.

 

Keep in mind that if all you want is two Lascannon shots, then you can't beat the combi-pred. 120pts. for two Lascannon shots, 13AV Front, and an Autocannon. That's a cheap price to give you peace of mind from Light armor/Mech. squads/MC's/Dreads/Defilers/Landspeeders.

[minigun762]

So I'm looking for opinions. What would you guys say is the better way to get those plasma cannons/missile launchers? How many of you have seen 100% shooty dreads being used to great effect?

 

I like the idea of the Plasma Cannon/Missile Launcher Dread. Both are fairly good weapons against a variety of targets and most importantly, you're able to move and fire all those weapons. Two such Dreadnoughts will cost you what, 250 points? Thats not too horrible really.

Another choice would be the Combi-Predator with AutoCannon/LasCannon. Its different weapons then what you're looking at, but still a great deal.

[BrotherErekose]

Even with vehicle survival up in 5e, I'd still prefer the Dev over the dread. A dev crew cannot die to one shot, MM, LC or ML, but Old Brother Aegis in his two-legged coffin can go down in one volley.

 

I'll leave the SG/Dev debate aside, as I'm not MathH savvy enough to work it out, but I've been told that 2 weps in a SG crew of 5 is the better price, at 8 men though ....

 

I have run an 8 man ML Dev crew for a long time, pretty much since I started 40k. 8 total is enough ablatives to survive the whole game even with a couple rounds of being shot at. Deploy in Cover as usual and they last. In the last couple years, rarely have I finished a game without them.

I recently started to use 4*missile launcher devastators and several meatbags additionally... They never failed me... Of course you can not kill LR with them but all other venicles - be ware!

 

Just started Cyberdog? :) Well, I'm glad you could make it eventually.

 

Which weapon?

Ya need range, so it's the LC or ML. I argue for the ML because of cost and versatility. First, the template. The ML's template is highly useful as 5e is a more transportation/disembarking heavy game. That means more clowns gathered just outside rhino doors or crowded around a Drop Pod's side. Before a frequent opponent caught on, I was racking up 18+hits on a round of shooting on a disembarked set of SG or a tactical. Typically, one template would scatter off, one or two landed on target with minimal scatter and one would Hit. He learned to spread his boys out more, but the template still rocks.

 

Which comes to PlasmaCans. Why not use AP2 love with the disembarking I've cited? Cost way more and Cover saves in 5e. Simple enough.

 

STR 8 isn't the best tank buster, but I've gone heavier with Melta toys in the forward units for enemy LRs, Vins and Preds. Enemy Rhinos are easily picked off. WaveS (STR 8 is the top there, if you recall) and D'fish need up close attention. So it is an 'okay' anti-T weapon.

 

I've tried Plascan devs and the MLs worked better and more diverse for the cost.

[BrotherErekose]

Oop, dual post. Duh.