IA: To be named later.

[Kikunosuke]

No prob Haelaeif. There are times when it's best to just leave something alone, take a short break & come back to it when you're fresh & recharged. I look forward to seeing more Paladins running around.

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

I have done a major rewrite, since I was unhappy with several of the parts - I wanted less detail to leave some room for interpretation, and I think I succeeded. The sections on organization, homeworld and belief are completely new, and I changed a few bits and bobs here and there. Comments highly appreciated.

 

I have not painted many more miniatures, though. There are now 15 tactical marines, 10 scouts, 1 spirit seer (librarian) and 1 rhino. I hope to find some time to expand this army in the near future. I might create a WIP thread, though, since I also have a few conversion ideas and a finished converted dreadnought - if I do open such a thread, I will post a link here and in the blog.

[NightrawenII]

Welcome back in the Liber. Now, onto the C&C.

 

Origins

The webway idea is not very good. For several reasons:

- I don't think, the Eldar would let the Ork-filth running wild in the Webway.

- The Webway Gates are operated using a psychic abilities. And I'm not sure if the Weirdboys are sophisticated enough to decipher the Eldar runes.

- Navigation in the Webway is hard even for Eldar themself. It's very unlikely for the Orks to find out a route directly on the Puccina. And for Marines to find out the Eldar-witch or the Orks planet.

- The Biel-Tan is famous for its war-like nature. Using Orks like the puppets is a little out of the character for them.

 

Torrelo's Fate story is confusing. It's unclear to me, what is the Pah-Chai or where the marines encountered the Eldar-witch.

 

Organisation

Over the centuries, the Masters of the reserve companies have taken up the position of second in command of a crusade strike force, effectively forming a new rank within the chapter's hierarchy, that of Marshal.

- Marshal is higher rank than Captain.

 

Just like the reserve companies, the first company is distributed among the crusade strike forces, and it's Master actually acts as the second in command for the High Master's own strike force – he still retains the rank of Master, though, and is the most likely successor to the High Master in the case of the latter's death.

- Ok. I do understand that Master= Captain and High Master= Chapter Master, but the change in terminology is too sudden and without explanation.

 

Each Brother-Knight selects a simple heraldic insignia instead, which is expanded upon if he is promoted to the rank of Brother-Templar.

- uhm, who is the Brother-Knight and who is the Brother-Templar? Some explantion is needed.

 

This has lead to each strike force's Master promoting Brothers and Sergeants into the veteran company on his own. The squads formed from these veterans are not permanent and have no squad insignia or number system. Each Brother-Knight selects a simple heraldic insignia instead, which is expanded upon if he is promoted to the rank of Brother-Templar. Since squads are not permanent, they can include several Templars, even though this rank had originally developed as the equivalent to Veteran Sergeant. Command of a squad is either awarded by the Master or Marshal or by the squad members themselves.

- In short. The 1st company does exist. Yet, it somewhat doesn't, because it's ad hoc formation and left at the whims of the commanding-officer?! :tu:

 

Homeworld

All men of the tribes are hunters and warriors, and while the tribes rarely fight amongst each other, there is always the ork menace.

from the origins section:

This time, it only took three weeks until no Ork was to be found on the planet's surface alive

- Explanation, how the Orks survived to this day is needed.

 

The Jungle of the Crescent Sea

As you have learned in your history lessons, the outward beauty of the surrounding forest hides an inner foulness that we must strive everyday to conquer, yet can never completely eradicate: the Orks.

- If the Paladins recruit from Mahicans, then the novices will know this from first hand. ;)

 

+++++

If the Paladins recruit from mahicans, Why shouldn't they?, How did the paladins address the clash of different culture, traditions and beliefs?

 

Combat Doctrine

In addition to this, they have on many occasions displayed an uncanny knack for anticipating the plans of aliens like Orks, Necrons and even the enigmatic Eldar.

- ok, I do understand the Orks, but where the Necrons or the Eldar came from?

 

Belief

The most prominent symbol of faith among the Paladins is the bloody cross, which is also the reason Master Gaudin chose it as their chapter symbol.

- This is a minor aberration, but still... the Chapter's colours, name and symbols are chosen during the founding. Master Gaudin did this 7 years after Chapter creation, which strikes me as odd.

 

... where he must kneel before the altar and remain completely still while each of his brothers takes turns beating or flogging him until eventually the aspirant enters a pain-induced trance.

- In all fairness, the reason or purpose of this ritual is total mystery to me.

 

Cheers.

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

Thanks for the input!

 

Welcome back in the Liber. Now, onto the C&C.

 

Origins

The webway idea is not very good. For several reasons:

- I don't think, the Eldar would let the Ork-filth running wild in the Webway.

- The Webway Gates are operated using a psychic abilities. And I'm not sure if the Weirdboys are sophisticated enough to decipher the Eldar runes.

- Navigation in the Webway is hard even for Eldar themself. It's very unlikely for the Orks to find out a route directly on the Puccina. And for Marines to find out the Eldar-witch or the Orks planet.

- The Biel-Tan is famous for its war-like nature. Using Orks like the puppets is a little out of the character for them.

 

Torrelo's Fate story is confusing. It's unclear to me, what is the Pah-Chai or where the marines encountered the Eldar-witch.

 

Hm, now that you mention it, yes, that webway part is a bit over-simplified. I could rewrite it. What I want is a story where the enemy - ie the orks - come to the planet via some alien technology, Eldar origin if possible, as part of the plan of another alien species. So it could be Ulthwé, or Alaitoc, and it could be a different technology. The important bit is alien technology and alien treachery in combination with a problem that remains and needs to be guarded - see further down, in the combat doctrine part.

 

 

Organisation

Over the centuries, the Masters of the reserve companies have taken up the position of second in command of a crusade strike force, effectively forming a new rank within the chapter's hierarchy, that of Marshal.

- Marshal is higher rank than Captain.

 

Just like the reserve companies, the first company is distributed among the crusade strike forces, and it's Master actually acts as the second in command for the High Master's own strike force – he still retains the rank of Master, though, and is the most likely successor to the High Master in the case of the latter's death.

- Ok. I do understand that Master= Captain and High Master= Chapter Master, but the change in terminology is too sudden and without explanation.

 

Each Brother-Knight selects a simple heraldic insignia instead, which is expanded upon if he is promoted to the rank of Brother-Templar.

- uhm, who is the Brother-Knight and who is the Brother-Templar? Some explantion is needed.

 

This has lead to each strike force's Master promoting Brothers and Sergeants into the veteran company on his own. The squads formed from these veterans are not permanent and have no squad insignia or number system. Each Brother-Knight selects a simple heraldic insignia instead, which is expanded upon if he is promoted to the rank of Brother-Templar. Since squads are not permanent, they can include several Templars, even though this rank had originally developed as the equivalent to Veteran Sergeant. Command of a squad is either awarded by the Master or Marshal or by the squad members themselves.

- In short. The 1st company does exist. Yet, it somewhat doesn't, because it's ad hoc formation and left at the whims of the commanding-officer?! ;)

 

I will write a part about the rank structure so that this does not get confusing, you are right. Thanks for pointing this out. In short, the rank structure I imagined is as follows, with the "codex"-equivalent next to it:

- High Master - Chapter Master

- Master - Captain

- Marshal - "Lieutenant" or some such

- Brother-Templar - Veteran/1st Co. Sergeant

- Brother-Knight - Veteran/1st Co. Brother

- Sergeant - Sergeant

- Brother - Brother

 

I use the rank of Marshal as a lower rank than captain because I want it to match historical templar rank structure, where marshals were lieutenants to the masters.

 

Fluffwise, that may create friction with other chapters - but that's just fine.

 

The first company does exist on paper, just like the other companies, and could be formed if the chapter were to assemble at one place at any point. I will try to make that more obvious and simplify that paragraph.

 

Homeworld

All men of the tribes are hunters and warriors, and while the tribes rarely fight amongst each other, there is always the ork menace.

from the origins section:

This time, it only took three weeks until no Ork was to be found on the planet's surface alive

- Explanation, how the Orks survived to this day is needed.

 

The Jungle of the Crescent Sea

As you have learned in your history lessons, the outward beauty of the surrounding forest hides an inner foulness that we must strive everyday to conquer, yet can never completely eradicate: the Orks.

- If the Paladins recruit from Mahicans, then the novices will know this from first hand. ;)

 

+++++

If the Paladins recruit from mahicans, Why shouldn't they?, How did the paladins address the clash of different culture, traditions and beliefs?

 

Orks regrow on any planet they ever set foot on, because of their spores. So the Paladins did kill every single ork alive on the planet, but they regrow regularly, and only in the jungles, because it was only there that they initially went. I might put that somewhere in there, but I though that was 40K knowledge that I could take for granted.

 

Not all novices will know that, since most of the recruits come from the Hivers, and even those mahicans among them may not know how the above-mentioned regrowth happens, so will have learned that the orks regrow in those history lessons. I can try to make the recruitment demographis clearer.

 

 

 

Combat Doctrine

In addition to this, they have on many occasions displayed an uncanny knack for anticipating the plans of aliens like Orks, Necrons and even the enigmatic Eldar.

- ok, I do understand the Orks, but where the Necrons or the Eldar came from?

 

Because they study aliens a lot more closely than other chapters do - this is kind of left over from previous editions and needs more backup in the new version. In fact, I guess I succeeded way too much in not giving too much about them away. The intent is that the chapter is bordering on heresy in their contact and exploration of alien ways because they want to be prepared for alien treachery and because they still need a way to close the portal - or whatever plot device will replace it later - which continued presenting a danger to the planet because it could not be shut down even when the actual structure was destroyed (which is also why the tower was built at this spot - as a fortress to keep stuff in, not out).

 

Belief

The most prominent symbol of faith among the Paladins is the bloody cross, which is also the reason Master Gaudin chose it as their chapter symbol.

- This is a minor aberration, but still... the Chapter's colours, name and symbols are chosen during the founding. Master Gaudin did this 7 years after Chapter creation, which strikes me as odd.

 

... where he must kneel before the altar and remain completely still while each of his brothers takes turns beating or flogging him until eventually the aspirant enters a pain-induced trance.

- In all fairness, the reason or purpose of this ritual is total mystery to me.

 

I find it odd that name, colours and symbol are chosen at the founding, and then still most chapters display some or many characteristics connected to or historical connections with those colours, that name and that symbol. It makes a lot more sense to me to choose those things based on the chapters character and actions after a few years, because then it makes sense that a chapter named "The Snow Marines" hails from an icy planet and remains cool all the time, just as a rather simply example. A chapter can wear simple black or white and their number as symbol and name until that point. So these guys were known as "The 427th" until they were given their name, they wore black, and their symbol was that number on their left pauldron.

 

The ritual is taken from the knightly rituals of Puccinas population, only taken to the extreme and combined with their genetic legacy's tnedency for masochism.

 

 

I see there is still a lot of work for me, clearing up some connections and rebuilding the initial idea of their search for alien knowledge so that it makes sense agian.

[NightrawenII]

Space Marine Chapter badges or icons are of very mixed origin. Many are iterations of common Imperial icons, such as the eagle, eagle wings, skulls and armoured fists. At a Chapter’s Founding the newly assigned Chapter Master must name his Chapter and choose its heraldry. There are strict rules to govern this process. The Codex Astartes provides the Chapter Master with a roll of approved naming elements and also forbids the use of certain names. New leaders are careful to try to avoid duplicating the name, icon and livery of an existing Chapter. However this is more difficult than may be imagined. There are approximately a thousand Chapters spread across the galaxy and only the priests of the Adeptus Terra on Earth have anything approaching a complete catalogue of these units and their heraldry. Many new Chapter Masters therefore create new heraldries to avoid any possible duplication. Over the millennia this has led to a vast proliferation of icons and liveries.

~Insignium Astartes

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

I never said I doubted that fluffwise, you are right. But it would look horribly odd to have a chapter named after his homeworld and behaviour when that name was chosen before they were even given that homeworld.

 

I want my chapter to have a name, symbol and colours that have a connection to its characteristics and values, and that only makes sense if they adopted those things after the fact.

 

The only solution to both make sense and remain within the fluff is to have Gaudin redesignate the chapter after the war on Puccina - which opens up a whole lot of new questions:

- could the chapter have existed for a longer time at that point?

- Could it have been a very different chapter before?

- How can the story of the war on Puccina be made so defining for the chapter that it as named after that world when it already had a different name?

 

Thanks for that idea. ;)

[NightrawenII]

I never said I doubted that fluffwise, you are right. But it would look horribly odd to have a chapter named after his homeworld and behaviour when that name was chosen before they were even given that homeworld.

Well, what I gather from the fluff, it seems that most chapters are given the homeworld before the founding. But yeah, names like Flame Falcons are just shenanigans on the author's part.

 

The only solution to both make sense and remain within the fluff is to have Gaudin redesignate the chapter after the war on Puccina - which opens up a whole lot of new questions:

- could the chapter have existed for a longer time at that point?

- Could it have been a very different chapter before?

- How can the story of the war on Puccina be made so defining for the chapter that it as named after that world when it already had a different name?

- It is very unusual for Chapter to change its name. The only official loyalists, who did this, are the Fire Claws -> Relictors.

- DIYers usually solve this problem with Chapter-nearly-destroyed-in-early-history. But this somewhat over(ab)used, so....

 

The best thing I can think of is:

The Chapter is designated to be stationed on the Puccina and the Chapter Master name them

- after the Order of Knights here.

- Paladins because they are protectors of Puccina.

 

Hope this helps.

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

Yes, it does help - gives me some more stuff to think about.

 

I guess while the current version is okay-ish, a complete overhaul would do the IA good, so that is what I am going to do sometime soon. I want to get a few more models finished first, however, so I'll just put up a random collection of my thoughts on the subject now and then, and anyone willing to add their ideas is very welcome. In fact, I'd be very happy if people would like to participate in creating this chapter, since I really want the general idea of it - see below - to work and can use any help I can get.

 

So let's start from scratch.

 

The basic idea

 

The general idea I had when envisioning this chapter was to do what GW knowingly avoided at one point when working on the Dark Angels in the transition from Rogue Trader to 40K 2nd Edition: combine the knight and the indian style into one chapter.

 

To that end, I chose to find inspiration in real world history, specifically the early conquest of america, and modern receptions of this, because that is where the two cultures I want to combine actually met.

 

 

basic elements

 

The following elements should be included in the final IA:

 

- knightly culture: rank structure of historical templars, vows, dedication and zeal, use of swords and shields

- knightly style: the cross, the tabards and robes, burning incense and torches

- aztec/mayan/indian culture and style: spirit worship, fortune-telling, golden ornaments and indian-style icons and weapons, maybe a feather here and there

- a knack for alien technology and strategy, maybe in combination with bordering on heresy, much like a radical inquisitor using xenos tech would

 

 

The models already show parts of this clearly:

 

- the colour scheme, chapter symbol and company (badge on knee) and squad (tactical arrow and squad number on right pauldron) designations are set.

- the knightly stuff is set.

- the indian elements are more sparsely sprinkled among the models, but they are there, too.

 

optional elements

 

What would I like to see in my chapter, but do not find absolutely neccessary?

 

- jungle combat and heat weapon focus, but not to the exclusion of all else

- IF geneseed

- massive use of tanks when in open terrain

- I'd like to keep the current name

 

 

 

So that is from where I will start. Comments and ideas will always be welcome.