Ranking of Soul Grinders and Heralds

[Infidel]

Just something that came across my mind when writing some fulff for my daemon: Exactly where in the hierarchy of Daemons does the Soul Grinder and Heralds belong?

 

"As many amongst the higher ranks of Daemonhood vie with each other and duel for the chance of being the one to fuse with the mechanical constructs and become a Soul Grinder" - Codex

 

So what are the Soul Grinders? They are at least equal, if not higher in rank, than a Daemon Prince and a Daemon prince can command entire traitor legions. To put things into perspective, shouldnt Grinders be rightful commander of their own daemonic legions?

 

Heralds are basically tougher and more senior versions of the basic daemon and there is no way that they would be leading Daemon Princes into battle. Is this just me being fluff-nerding or do you guys feel the same?

[Captain Malachi]

Soulgrinders gave up their allegiance to their gods and now only serve the forge, so other god's daemons wouldn't listen to them in a command role, otherwise you'd be right.

 

You have to remember that daemon princes are looked down upon by other daemons for their mortal origins, so while they may be able to use their superior power to work as a second in command to a greater daemon, they won't be listened to by other daemons in much the same was as soulgrinders. However, it could be possible for a daemon prince to threaten a herald in to doing what he wants.......I wouldn't count on it though, as in the fluff, pretty much all daemonic incursions are lead by greater daemons, I'm fairly sure heralds are just an invention to let us use armies without a greater daemon.

[Infidel]

The wording of the codex seems to imply that only "should one of the Chaos Gods attack the Forge of Souls and try to rule over it, all Soul Grinders will fight in its defence, discarding all of their previous loyalties to any of the four Great Powers of Chaos"

 

I see your point about the Daemon Prince, the CSMs might see them as daemonic champions but the actually daemons shuns them.

 

Is there anything in the actual fluff prior to the CD codex that implies such relationship? In my point of view, while a Daemon can have very stringent alleigences, the CSMs are all about "better to lord in hell than serve in heaven" and it's quite bizzare that a Daemon Prince would actually play part in a daemonic incursion rather than lead its own legions of traitor marines.

[Captain Malachi]

The wording of the codex seems to imply that only "should one of the Chaos Gods attack the Forge of Souls and try to rule over it, all Soul Grinders will fight in its defence, discarding all of their previous loyalties to any of the four Great Powers of Chaos"

I guess that depends on how you read it, I still see them as somewhat outside the usual chain of command in a similar way to tau stealthsuits (vaguely similar).

 

As for previous fluff, I haven't got a clue. I may know a fair bit about the current fluff, but haven't had a chance to read many of the older sourcebooks, but I don't think it was ever mentioned that they were shunned in the same way.

 

However, as said, they still serve as second in command to greater daemons, so I can see them making the most of their command role when the greater daemon is busy slaughtering, as they so often do.

[DuskRaider]

I believe Soul Grinder would be looked upon by Daemons much as Obliterators are looked upon by the Traitor Legions. Respected, highly sought after, but have no loyalty to any particular leader or power. They'd probably be much like Mercenaries or such, maybe agreeing to help with the promise of their share of souls? Who knows.

 

As far as Heralds go, I look at them as Daemons of a particular god that have proven themselves in battle time and again, have shown loyalty beyond others, and a penchant for leading others of their kind. They're gifted by their god to make them larger and more powerful then other lesser daemons, not only so they can boast their superiority, but also fair better in combat against any enemies. Or even Heralds are the ones who make deals and such with mortals, and are therefore seen as more intelligent or tactile. If you think about it, there are greater daemon "Heralds" too. Ku'gath, Scabiethrax, An'ggrath... they're all extremely powerful, even when compared to their brother daemons. They gained favor performing various deeds of sorts and this is their reward.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

I’ve been thinking about your question since it was posted and I believe that is requires a more detailed answer; therefore begging a bit more creativity for personal fluff. As we well know, there are five basic orders in the Realm of Chaos; the 4 powers + the Undivided. Past fluff use to treat Undivided Chaos as more like a 5th power but that’s almost impossible to apply to the current C:CD. In fact, any non mono-god list has to deal with the issue of specifically aligned HQ role leading minions from other gods; historically something that you think would be impossible to support fluff wise.

 

At the same time, we can’t always assume that role = military responsibility but it is directly inferred. A Herald is obviously a superior breed of a rank & file type daemonic entity. But the name, “Herald” states that the role is that of a messenger. If you trust Wikipedia:

 

Heralds were originally messengers sent by monarchs or noblemen to convey messages or proclamations - in this sense being the predecessors of the modern diplomats.

 

So the presence of a Daemonic Herald marshals some kind of statement being made by the ruinous god they represent. This message would therefore be especially acute when characters like SkullTaker or the BlueScibes are sent out. Because they take up an HQ slot on the FOC we assume that they must also have a role as a military leader. Perhaps in the deep musings of their corrupt intellects, the two roles combine, carrying along a deeper inference.

 

So to sum up, (and shut up for that matter), the assembly of a C:CD army is a very unique and oddly organized event. The Nurgle Daemon Prince may not recognize the authority of the presiding Keeper of Secrets other than to respect its status as being a, “Greater Daemon” in the basic understanding of what it is by nature. The goal of that unlikely partnership would have to override their core instincts of mistrust and outward hostility for one another. So that same Nurgle DP may only respond to the orders of that KoS insofar as it aligns with his own goals. The same would be true for a Soul Grinder operating outside the direct leadership of the Forge, etc.

 

I know how I’ve fluffed that out for my own army so I’m very interested in hearing how others work around the same issue.

 

My apologies for the long winded post. -OMG

[DuskRaider]

Well, my Daemon army's organization is a direct result of the fluff for my Renegade Militia, which symbolizes an alliance between Khorne and Nurgle through a single Avatar... my Renegade Commander. In this, I have Khorne and Nurgle aligned troops.

 

I also have my Death Guard as a major character as a whole in my fluff. They are also veterans from the original Horus Heresy and loyal to Mortarion above all (even Nurgle himself). The daemons, namely Epidemius, are present to ensure they follow the will of Nurgle. I also have a World Eaters force I'm working on that are more focused on the sense of martial honor that is an aspect of Khorne more so then the savagery. They're a large part of the fluff as well, but not as much as the Death Guard.

 

And then you have my daemons. Nurgle and Khorne, just as Death Guard and World Eaters, are generally allies and there isn't much animosity between the two (well, less then what is normal for Chaos Gods). I always have 2 HQ choices, one's usually Khorne (Bloodthirster) and one's usually Nurgle (Great Unclean One), that way there are no conflicts within the horde.

 

As you can see, I have 4 separate armies (Renegade Militia, Death Guard, World Eaters, and Chaos Daemons) that could either further be broken down into more (when IA: 7 come out, I'll be able to field either an all-Khorne RM list or all-Nurgle list; likewise I can play a Mono-Nurgle Daemon list or Mono-Khorne Daemon list), but in Apocalypse I can field all together and have a great theme and synergy on the table top as a whole.

[dark_elf]

also, dont forget that DPs dont have to come from the CSM ranks. a DP can originate from any number of worlds in 40k, and can be of virtually any race.

 

you could fluff it so that a DP in a Daemon army was once a mortal champion(non-sm) and thus have always looked up to GDs as the rightful leaders.

 

CSM - DPs however, were likely commanders/captains/champions among their legions and thus saw themselves more as leaders than followers now that they are elevated.

[Infidel]

So I'm curous. Would a Greater Daemon become a Soul Grinder?

[Sersi]

Here's how I see it:

 

 

Greater daemons

 

Greater daemons out ranks all but the most favored Daemon princes, and are the pure distilled essence of their Patron God. Basically there a perfect representation of what there god is about.

 

Daemon Princes:

 

There are daemon princes and then their are Daemon Princes. For instance the Daemon princes that command renegade marines are never in of command the Greater daemons they summon, they have to make an offering to even request their aid in battle. On the other hand fallen Primachs are so favored by the Gods that Angron can rolls with a routine of over a dozen Bloodthirsters at his beck and call. Its all about influence and how close you are to your God really.

 

Heralds:

 

Slaaneshi heralds are the Slaanesh's personal attendants, Hir harem really. No Soul Grinder or run of the mill Daemon Prince can compete with that level of divine influence. Heralds are basically the favorites of their particular God, so I imagine that even a Greater Daemon would not just blow one off.

 

Soulgrinders:

 

Sould grinders while powerful are undivided so while most daemons would respect them out of fear, they can't really have a position in a daemon armies command structure would listen to one over a daemon of there God

[Captain Malachi]

So I'm curous. Would a Greater Daemon become a Soul Grinder?

I imagine that all soulgrinders were greater daemons, heralds don't have the power to fight their way in to the forge when they're battling full blown greater daemons to get there. Of course it's possible a herald made it, just unlikely.

[Infidel]

Would it be unreasonable for my fluff to treat Grinders the same way people would treat Greater Daemons?

[Dammeron]

It seems that the Soul Grinders stand outside of standard daemonic hierarchy and become somewhat autonomous from whatever God originally created them (which may be motivation in itself to aspire to become one). their loyalty is to the Soul Forge, which appears to be one of the various "neutral" areas within the Warp that is dominated by no particular Chaos deity. I believe it was stated earlier that they appear to function very much as Obliterators do in a Chaos Space Marine force, i.e. as mercernary-elements that owe fealty to no particular "client." I imagine the benefits of existing as a Soul Grinder largely relate to having a ready made corporeal shell via which one can unleash havoc upon the material universe, as well as the independence this provides from one's erstwhile "master" (bear in mind that, although Greater Daemons are forged from their God's substance and reflect particular aspects of their patron, they are also sapient enough to have their own individual drives and ambitions. Considering the contradictory nature of chaos, it is far from outside the realms of possibility that a Greater Daemon could plot to sever the ties that bind it to its over lord. Becoming a Soul Grinder seems to be a relatively easy means to that end).

[Infidel]

It seems that the Soul Grinders stand outside of standard daemonic hierarchy and become somewhat autonomous from whatever God originally created them (which may be motivation in itself to aspire to become one). their loyalty is to the Soul Forge, which appears to be one of the various "neutral" areas within the Warp that is dominated by no particular Chaos deity. I believe it was stated earlier that they appear to function very much as Obliterators do in a Chaos Space Marine force, i.e. as mercernary-elements that owe fealty to no particular "client." I imagine the benefits of existing as a Soul Grinder largely relate to having a ready made corporeal shell via which one can unleash havoc upon the material universe, as well as the independence this provides from one's erstwhile "master" (bear in mind that, although Greater Daemons are forged from their God's substance and reflect particular aspects of their patron, they are also sapient enough to have their own individual drives and ambitions. Considering the contradictory nature of chaos, it is far from outside the realms of possibility that a Greater Daemon could plot to sever the ties that bind it to its over lord. Becoming a Soul Grinder seems to be a relatively easy means to that end).

/bow

[minigun762]

Here's how I see it:

 

 

Greater daemons

 

Greater daemons out ranks all but the most favored Daemon princes, and are the pure distilled essence of their Patron God. Basically there a perfect representation of what there god is about.

 

Daemon Princes:

 

There are daemon princes and then their are Daemon Princes. For instance the Daemon princes that command renegade marines are never in of command the Greater daemons they summon, they have to make an offering to even request their aid in battle. On the other hand fallen Primachs are so favored by the Gods that Angron can rolls with a routine of over a dozen Bloodthirsters at his beck and call. Its all about influence and how close you are to your God really.

 

Heralds:

 

Slaaneshi heralds are the Slaanesh's personal attendants, Hir harem really. No Soul Grinder or run of the mill Daemon Prince can compete with that level of divine influence. Heralds are basically the favorites of their particular God, so I imagine that even a Greater Daemon would not just blow one off.

 

Soulgrinders:

 

Sould grinders while powerful are undivided so while most daemons would respect them out of fear, they can't really have a position in a daemon armies command structure would listen to one over a daemon of there God

 

 

Overall I think this is a good starting point.

For me, the key things to remember is that

1) The Chaos gods are fickle beings who give and take their blessings at their own whims

2) Power tends to equal Authority, so a powerful enough Herald or Soulgrinder may be able to control daemons who technically rank higher then themselves.

[Inquisitor Kravin]

I think that in some ways the whole concept of ranking is the construct of rational mortals and therefore makes little or no sense in the context of daemons and the warp. Whilst we can fairly safely say that a lesser daemon obeys a greater daemon of the same god everything else is more complex. A daemon prince is despised by other daemons beacuse he is tainted by his mortal origins but the fact that as a mortal he achieved enough to be elevated to daemonhood by his patron shows that he is skilled in his patron's chosen discipline and so he can probably intimidate/seduce/infect/manipulate daemons to serve him. Soulgrinders have a higher loyalty than the one to the god they currently serve so they cannot be trusted but their services are valuable enough to justify doing a lot to keep them happy. In the convoluted realm of the warp where time and space have no normal meaning then alliances must be constantly shifting, governed by fear, ambition, strength, obligation, need, mutual goals and the opportunities of betrayal. The Force Organisation Chart structure is misleading. A daemon prince goes in Heavy Support for game mechanic reasons but it could be that the Bloodthirster from HQ has actually been tricked into fighting to achieve the goals of the Nurgle prince in his retinue...

[Black Talon]

I think Soul Grinders, Daemon Princes, Greater Daemons and Heralds all have a certain level of influence.

 

As long as the goals of the leading daemons align they'll acknowledge that a herald or soulgrinder can lead an army.

 

If a nurgle herald said to a bloodthirster, "Go kill those marines so i can infect the guys their guarding" I think the bloodthirster would do it because their goals align. A GD is needed to kill stuff, so the herald can infect other people. Or a Slaanesh Herald and Soul Grinder. Herald says "Hey soul grinder, go smash those tanks, their too hard for my daemonettes." Soul grinder would probably do it goes the smashed objects are given to the soul forge.

 

But hey, we're chaos, we don't need to seem logical, sane or even like we know why a bunch of Soul grinders are here, just use what the gods give ya.

[Captain Malachi]

I think if a Nurgle herald actually said that to a bloodthirster, the 'thirster would probably do it, but only after ripping the heralds head off. :D Same deal with the soulgrinder, but I get what you're saying, I just feel they'd be more likely to make it a request than an order.

[Black Talon]

Well if you've got the balls to stand up to something as strong as a greater daemon, you're probly 1 of 2 things. 1) An insane servant of tzeentch. 2) A very VERY depressed/stupid herald.