Assault squad bike leader

[rusty1109]

Hi all, very simple question that i could some help with,

Can an independant character on a bike join an assault squad? If so i take it that the squad would move a max of 12". The bike would not be slowed down by the terrain but would normally take the dangerous terrain test and the assault marines would usually ignore it altogether, do i just roll the test for the bike and move the marines the same distance as the bike as normal jump pack infantry? And would squad be able to fall back 3 D6 as all members of the squad have it in their rules.

 

Thanks in advance for any help

Cheers

Rusty

[JamesI]

I think everything you said is correct.

 

Bike IC can join an assault unit, they move 12 inches. Fall back 3d6

[rusty1109]

Thanks for that, what about terrain would the assault squad have to take a test because of the presence of the bike?

[JamesI]

Thanks for that, what about terrain would the assault squad have to take a test because of the presence of the bike?

The only assault guys affected by the terrain would be those who landed in it. So, they shouldn't have a check just because of the bike.

[Cedric]

Only models that actually travel through terrain tests for it, never the whole unit, unless otherwise specified.

Since IC's have the Skilled Rider per default, he should be safe, even when riding in rough terrain.

[Maligoare]

Don't forget though, the unit can't run (due to the bike)!

[SeattleDV8]

Only models that actually travel through terrain tests for it, never the whole unit, unless otherwise specified.

Since IC's have the Skilled Rider per default, he should be safe, even when riding in rough terrain.

 

The IC would lose this special rule when joined to the bikes.

[Cedric]

No, Skilled Rider isn't marked with an asterisk in the BRB. Thus the IC retains it when joined to a squad.

[SeattleDV8]

BRB pg. 76 "...as long as its unit type is bike or cavalry."

The unit would be mixed bike and jump infantry, the skilled rider is lost.

[Cedric]

The Unit Types page list a number of types none of wich are described as "mixed".

 

The IC unit type is still a bike, even when joined with jump infantry. It only changes when you switch wargear, not when you join or leave other units.

[Bran Scalphunter]

I think it would be a bit complicated, but the Commander on Bike's unit type is "Bike or Cavalry", the rest of the Assault Squad's unit type is Jump Infantry. So unless there's something hidden in the book that says you become the same Unit Type as the unit an IC joins, he keeps Skilled Rider.

 

Example:

 

A 4" wide forest is in front of the Assault Squad with Biker Commander. The unit moves 12" (all units can move 12"), passing through (over) the forest. The Assault Squad ignores the forest as they fly over it, but since the Biker is ramming his way through, he has to take a Dangerous Terrain test, which if he manages to fail, he takes the wound himself. No way to put it on a Marine, since they didn't take the test themselves.

[rusty1109]

Thats what i thought, it makes sense when you think about it, not that rules follow that logic all the time lol!

[SeattleDV8]

When the IC on a bike joins a unit of jump infantry you now have one unit.

Is that unit bike or cavalry?

It is now a mixed unit which does not meet the standard for the USR, if the IC joined bikes then yes he would keep skilled rider.

[Bran Scalphunter]

When the IC on a bike joins a unit of jump infantry you now have one unit.

Is that unit bike or cavalry?

It is now a mixed unit which does not meet the standard for the USR, if the IC joined bikes then yes he would keep skilled rider.

 

Show me where it says if the IC on a Bike (note he is of Unit Type: Bikes) joins a unit of Assault Marines (Unit Type: Jump Infantry) he becomes a Jump Infantry model.

 

And I shall quote the Universal Special Rules, pg 76 of the Warhammer 5th Edition Rulebook

 

Skill Rider

 

The rider is highly practiced at moving through perilous warzones. It may re-roll the dice for failed dangerous terrain tests as long as its is bike or cavalry.

 

Emphasis mine. Nowhere does it say that a unit comprised of multiple Unit Types counts as only one of the Unit Types. So as long as a Captain has a Space Marine bike, he is of the Unit Type: Bikes and uses all its rules and abilities, regardless of what unit he joins.

 

If you've got a direct quote that proves me wrong, fine. I'll accept that. But until then, you're just trying to twist the wording to make yourself seem in the right.

[Commander Sasha]

I don't have my rulebook to hand, so my apologies if I'm obviously wrong!

 

Isn't the concept of 'joining' a lot simpler in 5ed, based more on actual proximity rather than declaration: only ICs can join, and if they are within 2", they are automatically joined, and if not, not?

 

Joining would therefore only be relevant at the start and end of the movement phase, not the middle! In the previous example, whilst the Ass Marines are jumping over the forest, they are too high to be joined. On landing, they meet up again, and can thus rejoin ready to shoot. The intermediate movement is done as separate units, bike/cavalry and jump.

 

This discussion would have been more complex in 4ed when an IC could stand next to another unit without joining it.

 

I think. ;)

 

This discussion has made me want to build a bike with jet lifters :D

[Bran Scalphunter]

I assumed that he had joined the previous turn to the Assault Squad. Therefore they could both move in the same turn. And yes, joining a unit is as simple as coming within 2" of a unit- then you automatically join up.

 

If the Marine and Commander are a single unit, they move as one unit at the same time. You don't count how many inches high the Marines are going over the forest, you just count the lateral distance between Point A and Point B.

[SeattleDV8]

Show me where it says if the IC on a Bike (note he is of Unit Type: Bikes) joins a unit of Assault Marines (Unit Type: Jump Infantry) he becomes a Jump Infantry model.

 

And I shall quote the Universal Special Rules, pg 76 of the Warhammer 5th Edition Rulebook

 

Skill Rider

 

The rider is highly practiced at moving through perilous warzones. It may re-roll the dice for failed dangerous terrain tests as long as its is bike or cavalry.

 

Emphasis mine. Nowhere does it say that a unit comprised of multiple Unit Types counts as only one of the Unit Types. So as long as a Captain has a Space Marine bike, he is of the Unit Type: Bikes and uses all its rules and abilities, regardless of what unit he joins.

 

If you've got a direct quote that proves me wrong, fine. I'll accept that. But until then, you're just trying to twist the wording to make yourself seem in the right.

 

Tsk tsk, when quoting the rules it is bad form to change the wording to fit your argument.

BRB pg.76 ".....as long as its unit type is bike or cavalry."

With a mixed unit which we are talking about ,does not conform to the USR rules.

[eyescrossed]

Show me where it says if the IC on a Bike (note he is of Unit Type: Bikes) joins a unit of Assault Marines (Unit Type: Jump Infantry) he becomes a Jump Infantry model.

 

And I shall quote the Universal Special Rules, pg 76 of the Warhammer 5th Edition Rulebook

 

Skill Rider

 

The rider is highly practiced at moving through perilous warzones. It may re-roll the dice for failed dangerous terrain tests as long as its is bike or cavalry.

 

Emphasis mine. Nowhere does it say that a unit comprised of multiple Unit Types counts as only one of the Unit Types. So as long as a Captain has a Space Marine bike, he is of the Unit Type: Bikes and uses all its rules and abilities, regardless of what unit he joins.

 

If you've got a direct quote that proves me wrong, fine. I'll accept that. But until then, you're just trying to twist the wording to make yourself seem in the right.

 

Tsk tsk, when quoting the rules it is bad form to change the wording to fit your argument.

BRB pg.76 ".....as long as its unit type is bike or cavalry."

With a mixed unit which we are talking about ,does not conform to the USR rules.

Yeah... A unit type doesn't neccesarily mean a whole unit. Look at Daemon Princes for example. They're listed as "Unit type: Monstrous Creature". The Unit type of the Captain is Bike.

[nighthawks]

also, the unit type "mixed" would, by this logic, loose the "jump infantry" rule as well when joined by a non-jump IC. this is not true.

 

I side with the unit type is fixed to the model argument. movement is done at the "speed" of the slowest model in the unit, including attached ICs but I see no way that any member of the unit looses their type classification by being joined - they may have penalties but they are not wholesale reclassified.

[SeattleDV8]

Okay fair enought..........I disagree but I can see the point you are making.

[Trekari]

To side with SeattleDV8 and play a bit of devil's advocate:

 

What is the purpose of the text "unit type bike or cavalry" then? Would a NON bike or cavalry unit have this USR? Can anyone cite an example where a non bike or cavalry unit is granted this skill?

[Cedric]

All independent characters have the

‘move through cover’ and ‘skilled rider’ special rules

 

An IC always has these rules, no matter what unit type the IC is.

The Skilled Rider rule, however, only affects movement of bikes and cavalry.

Thus it is useless on an Infantry IC, but the IC still has the rule.

[Trekari]

Thank you Cedric

[Cypher 102]

More importantly you can't use the skilled rider ability when your commander has a jump pack.

[rusty1109]

would be pretty silly if he did he's not riding anything! So the general consensus is that he would still have skilled rider, and that the squad would fall back 3D6. Rules that would be lost would be the bikes turbo boost and the assault squads ability to run. Anyone else think that this sounds like a good idea btw? The plan is to have a fast moving squad with lots of attacks to counter/slow down hordes, pinpoint artillery/special characters etc and make the character more survivable.