Open topped Vs Fire Points

[Thantoes]

Right, I am aware of the fire point rule and how it does not allow you to shoot from the vehicle if you go more than 6 inches.

 

It states "Models firing from a vehicle count as moving if the vehicle moves, and may not fire at all if the vehicle moved at Cruising Speed that turn" (BRB pg 66).

 

I have 2 questions.

 

The first is: does this also apply to assault weapons. The assault weapon rule states "Assault weapons shoot the number of times indicated whether you move or not" (BRB pg 28). I believe this is overruled by the fire point rule but would like some confirmation.

 

The second is do open topped vehicles have this rule applied to them?

 

My query comes about because the open topped rule states "Open-topped vehicles do not have any specific fire points" (BRB pg 70).

 

I cant decide if this means that it doesnt have any fire points at all or if the vehicle is in effect 1 giant fire point. If it doesnt actually have any fire points then would the previosly quoted firepoint rule apply as it was in a specific section that only dealt with fire points?

[Cedric]

It's the ´move >6"´ rule that busts the whole thing.

Not even assault weapons may fire if the vehicle moves more than this, because that is one of the conditions for the passengers, regardless of their weaponry.

I guess the passengers are too busy bracing themselves from sudden turns and impacts to be able to fire at such great speed.

 

Open topped mean that there is no limit to how many passengers may fire, as opposed to fire points.

[greatcrusade08]

It states "Models firing from a vehicle count as moving if the vehicle moves, and may not fire at all if the vehicle moved at Cruising Speed that turn" (BRB pg 66).

 

Cruising speed for a LSS is 12"+ right?

So this means a LSS can move 12" and the guys inside can still shoot?

This is how ive always played it, but recently i was told it was 6"....so which is it?

 

GC08

[Cedric]

A fast vehicle can fire its own weapons at cruising speed. The passengers of a fast transport cannot, however.

[Maligoare]

I think your confusion comes from the fact that crusing speed is between 6" and 12". LSS and other fast vehicles get to go faster (flat out), but that has no effect on what cruising speed is for the LSS. This means that no, you don't get to fire from a LSS which has moved 12", only from one that has moved 6" or less.

[Reglor]

Just a minor note, it is possible to fire from a vehicle that moved up to 12" if that vehicle was moving on a road. Remember, it is speed classification, not distance that determines what you can do.

[SeattleDV8]

Not so.

BRB pg.57".....that move at Cruising Speed following a road for their entire Movement phase may move up to an extra 6"."

Cruising speed = no passengers shooting.

[Thantoes]

Guys, while I appreciate the answers you have given, only Cedric address some of my questions. I am not fussed about the cruising speed aspect as I think its pretty clear in the book.

 

What I am concerned about is whether open topped vehicles count as having actual fire points. And if they do not have actual fire points then are they effected by the "cruising speed" rule that comes under the heading of firepoints.

[Cypher 102]

Models firing from a vehicle count as moving if the vehicle moves, and may not fire at all if the vehicle moved at Cruising speed that turn.

Open-topped vehicles do not have specific fire points. Instead, all passengers in an open-topped vehicle may fire, measuring range and line of sight from the hull of the vehicle.

Unfortunately the first quote is under the fire points section of the transport rules, and the general wording as usual is bad enough to give the rules lawyers enough wiggle room to argue this the opposite way it should be.

[greatcrusade08]

Sorry for the threadjack T :)

yeah i think this is gunna be a difficult one to argue either way,

If the open topped vehicle has no fire points, it will not use the rules for fire points as listed above, which then means they have no limitation on firing from movement of said vehicle...

This makes more sense to me since the LSS would be of no practical use otherwise!

 

The open topped rule trumps the fire point rule

 

GC08

Edit: can i add this to my 'article' on grey area scout rules?

[Thantoes]

GC08

Edit: can i add this to my 'article' on grey area scout rules?

 

Use what you like, its all good.

 

As much as its going to hurt me (15 burnerboys flaming me from a battlewagon and killing an entire assault squad) I think I am going to have to go with the idea that since open-topped dont seem to have fire points then they can fire even after moving 12 inches. *sigh*

[Trekari]

Models firing from a vehicle count as moving if the

vehicle moves, and may not fire at all if the vehicle

moved at Cruising speed that turn.

 

Note that this quote of the rules does NOT state "Models firing from a Fire Point."

 

Open-topped vehicles do not have specific fire points.

Instead, all passengers in an open-topped vehicle may

fire, measuring range and line of sight from the hull of

the vehicle.

 

Nothing here contradicts that no passenger may fire if the vehicle moved at Cruising speed. Open-Topped removed the restriction that the number of passengers that may fire is based on how many Fire Points the vehicle has.

[Thantoes]

Models firing from a vehicle count as moving if the

vehicle moves, and may not fire at all if the vehicle

moved at Cruising speed that turn.

 

Note that this quote of the rules does NOT state "Models firing from a Fire Point."

 

Open-topped vehicles do not have specific fire points.

Instead, all passengers in an open-topped vehicle may

fire, measuring range and line of sight from the hull of

the vehicle.

 

Nothing here contradicts that no passenger may fire if the vehicle moved at Cruising speed. Open-Topped removed the restriction that the number of passengers that may fire is based on how many Fire Points the vehicle has.

 

Ahhh, but the ambiguity comes from the fact that the first part quoted is part of the "Fire Point" section. So does it only deal with vehicles with fire points or with ALL passenger shooting from all vehicles?

[greatcrusade08]

Ahhh, but the ambiguity comes from the fact that the first part quoted is part of the "Fire Point" section. So does it only deal with vehicles with fire points or with ALL passenger shooting from all vehicles?

 

Its under fire points, so if your vehicle has no fire points you dont use this rule.. also it states vehicle NOT open topped vehicle, the two are very different. The second quote specifically mentions open topped vehicles and the rules for it... see my last post for summary.

 

GC08

[Trekari]

Is an Open Topped vehicle, a vehicle?...

 

By your interpretation, passengers firing from an Open Topped vehicle never count as moving, either.

 

Absolutely wrong. The Fire Points section details the basic rules about passengers firing from a transport vehicle.

 

They MAY NOT fire if the vehicle moved at Cruising speed. The Open Topped rule does not contradict this.

 

No specific fire points does not mean no fire points.

[greatcrusade08]

Is an Open Topped vehicle, a vehicle?...

Not always a LSS is an open topped vehicle and its a skimmer. By description yes its a vehicle, but rules wise its not, its a skimmer.

 

By your interpretation, passengers firing from an Open Topped vehicle never count as moving, either.

Not at all, all it says in the relevant quote is that the passengers may fire, i acknowledge the vehicle counts as having moved, but assault weapons can still fire!

 

Absolutely wrong. The Fire Points section details the basic rules about passengers firing from a transport vehicle.

Yes but NOT an open topped vehicle, the wording of the two quotes suggest they are treated seperatly, the first deals with fire points and only states "vehicles" the secodn deals with shooting from open topped vehicles and specifically states "open topped vehicles"

 

They MAY NOT fire if the vehicle moved at Cruising speed. The Open Topped rule does not contradict this.

There is no specific quote that states this, you are assuming the fire point quote applies to open topped vehicles.

 

No specific fire points does not mean no fire points.

Actually thats precisiely what it means, NO SPECIFIC fire points, plain english... a fire point from the rules point of view means a certain place from which a passenger may fire, all vehicles fire points are listed in a set location for LOS etc, open topped vehicles have no specific fire points hence can shoot from any angle using the hull as point of reference..

 

GC08

 

Edit: poor spelling

[Trekari]

I believe you are missing several points that are causing your interpretation to be screwed.

 

Open Topped is a VEHICLE special rule. An Open Topped Vehicle, is STILL a VEHICLE.

 

If you are discounting the entire "Fire Point" section of the rulebook because it's an Open Topped vehicle, then the passengers never count as moving for the purposes of Shooting. That rule is only found within the Fire Points text.

 

Your interpretation therefore means they don't count as moving, and thus heavy weapons could fire willy-nilly from an Open Topped vehicle regardless of how fast it moved.

 

"No specific fire points" means exactly what it reads. There is not a specific POINT on the vehicle that passengers fire from. The entire hull is a fire point for however many models the vehicle is carrying.

 

The Transport vehicle rules lay a framework and basic rules.

 

Open-topped vehicles follow the normal vehicle rules, with the additions and exceptions given below.

 

In order for those rules to be IGNORED, as you wish, they must be contradicted by other, more specific rules. So here is the million dollar question.

 

Explain how these two sentences contradict each other:

 

Models firing from a vehicle count as moving if the vehicle moves, and may not fire at all if the vehicle moved at Cruising speed that turn.

 

Instead, all passengers in an open-topped vehicle may fire, measuring range and line of sight from the hull of the vehicle.

 

Does the second sentence address vehicle movement? Does it address passengers counting as moving if the vehicle moves?

 

Additions and exceptions - show me the EXCEPTION that allows them to ignore the normal vehicle rules.

[greatcrusade08]

Hmm thats a very convincing argument, i beleive this quote is the kicker:

 

Open-topped vehicles follow the normal vehicle rules, with the additions and exceptions given below.

 

Is this a direct quote from the rule book, i dont have mine with me at the moment?

 

GC08

[Trekari]

Page 70, first paragraph under the main heading "Open Topped Vehicles."

 

It's the last sentence just before the heading changes to Open Topped Transport Vehicles.

[Thantoes]

I have the rule entry that ends this finally.

 

"Transports have several additional characteristics: Transport Capacity, Fire Points and Access Points" (BRB pg 66 - near the top)

 

This pretty much states that ALL transports have fire points. Doesnt matter if its open topped or not.

 

This alters my point of view more than any other argument before. If you move more than 6 you cant fire full stop.

[Hlakir]

If that statement is ment to tell us that all Transport vehicles have Fire Points that would mean that a Land Raider have Fire points. The first sentence under the part about Fire points tells us that a Transport vehicle may have Fire points, which will be noted in it's entry.