Storm Caller, not as nerfed as originally thought?

[Hfran Morkai]

Reading the rule book this morning I couldn't help looking at assault rules. Assaults and cover means attacker strikes at initiative 1. Most units now have frags but frag grenades are only used when assaulting through cover, not being assaulted. Therefore our guys go before the enemy and powerfists/thunder hammers strike at the same time. This seems much better than 4th ed rules.

 

Am I right or am I missing something obvious? I mean playing RAw it even says that if the squad assaults it goes first

[kapturowski]

As far as I understand it, you only get the reduced Initiative if you have to roll for dangerous or difficult terrain when charging. Storm Caller does not make you do this so it won't affect the I of the unit charging you.

[Hfran Morkai]

I hope not as otherwise I've been cheating but in the special rule it says they will strike first so I'm abiding by the rules. Its not our fault that GW haven't updated us yet so I think we should be able to use it

[lunchb0x]

You do strike first, but items like power fists and what not would strike at initiative order. Essentially items that have a set initiative on them strike at that.

 

Power first is initiative 1 , that supersedes the strike first.

 

Its better then banshee masks, that strike at initiative 10. We strike first outright.

[Fellblades]

Reading the rule book this morning I couldn't help looking at assault rules. Assaults and cover means attacker strikes at initiative 1. Most units now have frags but frag grenades are only used when assaulting through cover, not being assaulted. Therefore our guys go before the enemy and powerfists/thunder hammers strike at the same time.

 

 

This is the way I have been playing the rule, most of the guys at my LGS also agree that this is how its supposted to be interpreted, so as long as you get your gaming buddys to see it the same way you do, it should work out.

 

PS. I'm pretty sure there are a ton of other threads dedicated to this topic, it might be time to put your search-fu to work :wink:

[Hfran Morkai]

Yeah when my opponent read my dex he was fine with it as you use frags when assaulting. This is very cool as instead of going last with powerfists they strike simultaneously. I never suggested that powerfists went at normal initiative, that would be sick.

[Grey Mage]

This is a rather debated "Grey" area of the rules.... its one reason, besides LD9 that I avoid rune priests.

[Ryzouken]

Hehe, I run a Rune Priest on occasion only because when I bought my army, I wanted the option to run as vanilla marines instead of Space Wolves, an option I've not since excersized. Still, because of the awesomeness that is Gate, I've a Terminator Librarian/Rune Priest model (that's fairly badass if I say so myself, and I do!) that's been fielded twice now.

 

Overall, the ld 9, overcostedness, and general wonkiness of Stormcaller are good reason to go elsewhere for an HQ.

[WG Vrox]

yesturday I had it ruled at a LGS tournie that because the rules have changed in 5th that says troops in cover assulting other troops in cover no longer go at the same time or no longer benefit from assulting from cover, thus it negates the RPs SC ability and I did not get to go at Int 10 while assulting.

 

WG Vrox.

[Hfran Morkai]

80 Points is not overcosted. He's got 4 attacks and two wounds and the best psychic power there was. I happily stick him with a Bloodclaw squad. My opponents don't seem to have a problem so I will continue to use him. The power works with the new edition I swear it! If only GW would hurry up and sort us out.

[Ryzouken]

80 Points is not overcosted. He's got 4 attacks and two wounds and the best psychic power there was. I happily stick him with a Bloodclaw squad. My opponents don't seem to have a problem so I will continue to use him. The power works with the new edition I swear it! If only GW would hurry up and sort us out.

 

Bolded sections are wrong for the following reasons:

There are plenty of cover saves in 5th Ed. This even assumes you need to use a cover save, forgetting for a moment that you've got a 3+ save, something that most weapons have trouble penetrating. The higher initiative when assaulting is open to interpretation as it is a relic of a bygone era in the opinion of many.

Gate, and a whole slew of other psychic powers are superior.

 

The Rune Priest is overcosted when you consider his wargear. Attempting to make him even with a codex librarian wargear wise will cost you 80 additional points for a psychic hood-stick and a runic weapon. You now no longer have a ranged attack option, and cost 60 points more than the basic librarian. Congratulations. If you wanted a CC monster, you could grab a Wolf Priest or WGBL/Wolf Lord, except that neither of them get the special rules that make codex HQ's so attractive (Rites on a Wolf Priest would be VERY nice.)

 

Underlined section is where you shoot yourself in the foot, as attempting to argue something is strong because your opponents don't mind you taking it is like saying "Why yes, that poor guy died of natural causes! I shot him too, but he definitely died of natural causes!"

[lunchb0x]

Cost aside, I always run a rune priest with a blood claw pack.

 

With a psychic hood staff/close combat weapon and a plasma pistol, as well as belt of Russ.

 

Its fun to have them charge into an I5 squad with the power on them and go...oh hey by the way...I strike first...:: munch munch munch :: After all, it does state : "...always strikes first..."

 

Is it from Wisconsin? Yes.

 

Does it make everything taste better? Yes.

[Ryzouken]

And everyone in my area adopts the other interpretation so I gave up on the gribbly.

 

Here's to this winter!

[JCarter]

Something does not become open to interpretation because it is a relic of a bygone era. Openness to interpretation comes when the wording is ambiguous. To say the first is simply to say that you don't like the rule and your opponent shouldn't use it. SC according to the FAQ is to be used as written and the "strikes first" portion is not ambiguous.

[Ryzouken]

Then we should be able to take Sacred Standards, Company Standards, Narthecium and Reductors, and a whole host of other wargear.

 

In fact, if we accept that relics of bygone eras still apply, then Overwatch, Virus Bombs, and variable armour values for vehicles must be observed. in fact, I'll take the new vehicles from the newest space marine codex along with the 2nd Ed statlines for Wolf Guard and the like.

 

I mean, since we're playing with old rules anyway, right?

[G. A. K.]

SC isn't from 2nd ed. or something. The faq clearly says to ignore 'mixed armor' and 'No matter the odds' rules and says to use the newer version of 'counter-attack'; so if they had a problem with how SC works they would have mentioned it or changed, but they didn't. Going first is the only good thing a RP has so why so mad about it?

Thats how I play it and it isn't like it means I win every game because of it. IMO counter-attack is a much more effective rule and they gave that to us so relax and stop bringing up wierd arguments about 'old rules' when we are using the most up-to-date rules we have.

 

G

[Grey Mage]

The problem is that theres 2 versions of C:SW floating around, one of them isnt explicit, the other is. I cant remember wich is more recent though.

[Hfran Morkai]

We have two editions lurking? Mine says that he strikes first and that is how my opponents are happy to play the rules, I think they're happy to do it as the points in our dex is slightly outdated. And with my rune priest I just give him lightning claws as shooting weapons are useless on a Rune Priest. But thinking of running him with frost blade and storm shield.

[Grey Mage]

Yeah, the most recent is the 2000 edition IIRC, and they have different costs for the Runic Staff, the more recent one is 25pts.

[Ryzouken]

SC isn't from 2nd ed. or something. The faq clearly says to ignore 'mixed armor' and 'No matter the odds' rules and says to use the newer version of 'counter-attack'; so if they had a problem with how SC works they would have mentioned it or changed, but they didn't. Going first is the only good thing a RP has so why so mad about it?

Thats how I play it and it isn't like it means I win every game because of it. IMO counter-attack is a much more effective rule and they gave that to us so relax and stop bringing up wierd arguments about 'old rules' when we are using the most up-to-date rules we have.

 

G

 

Also, arguing that GW would intentionally leave something out of a FAQ (ours in particular) on purpose is a laughable concept when one compares this issue with the question of transport vehicle costs. To elaborate, the German FAQ (and another one, not sure which) include Rhinos and Razorbacks in their list of items that use the new point costs, while the English FAQ omits these two entries.

 

Additionally, I'm not mad about how SC works. I know the two ways the power can work, I know the one interpretation that my playgroups (there are two) have adopted, and I know the ambiguity (and there is ambiguity) will never be cleared up, as GW will neatly sidestep the issue by releasing a new codex (to the cheering of the masses, myself inclusive). What you do in your playgroup only impacts me if you try to present your view as the only possible one. Accept the possibility of another view point, and identify that viewpoint, and I'll be content to say nothing.

 

And yes, there's two editions of the current dex. GW did a stealth errata about the same time as the stealth edit of the Dark Eldar dex. It's actually somewhat annoying, as it makes arguments about the dexes in question even more fuzzy.

 

It's annoying how many times I'm stuck staring down the opposing view of codex issues. This one, the Counterattack dreadnought thing... it's almost enough to make me swear off the internet... almost...

[KeithGatchalian]

I'll chime in on this. The matter has been argued and debated many times. I'm not going to debate the merits etc. Just give the pertinent facts and throw my opinion in at the end.

 

The last edition/printing of the Space Wolf codex it says that you only go first when assaulted.

 

The Adepticon FAQ uses this interpetation. ( as a side, I sent the writer the pdf of the relevant pages in the codex).

 

If a tournament organizer emails GW at askyourquestion@games-workshop.com he will get the above answer.

 

Just a little bit of history on the power. When the 3rd edition codex came out, yes, you could go first when assaulting, until they wrote up the SW FAQ which said no.

 

When 4th edition came out, there was a specific line in the rulebook that said powers that make you count as in cover do not count when assaulting. The FAQ ruling was eliminated.

 

In 5th edition, no line was put into the rulebook because the last printing of the codex outright said you only go first when assaulted.

 

Now for the opinion part ( and what seems to be the debate part). There are space wolf players who take the attitude that it says they go first in their version of the codex, so that is what they are going to do, despite the knowledge above. IMHO they are playing immorally....one could even say cheating, and bringing the wolves into disrepute, and dishonoring what the Wolves are all about.

 

I think to play it safe, to be prepared for a tournament, to not be called or thought of as a cheater, one should play the power as going first only when assaulted.

 

I can only imagine what would happen when a player who insists he still gets to use the power as presented in a older codex meets up and plays someone with a newer version.

[Ryzouken]

I think calling them a cheater is a bit beyond the extent of that nifty moral high ground, but I understand the sentiment.

 

Obviously, we're all bound and beholden only to what our playgroups believe to be true. Beyond that, the internets have spoken, the issue is ambiguous, there are arguments (some stronger than others depending on whose opinion you seek) either way. Let's let this one lie (before someone takes offense at the prior point and we have to repair the Fang, again).

[lunchb0x]

Then we should be able to take Sacred Standards, Company Standards, Narthecium and Reductors, and a whole host of other wargear.

 

In fact, if we accept that relics of bygone eras still apply, then Overwatch, Virus Bombs, and variable armour values for vehicles must be observed. in fact, I'll take the new vehicles from the newest space marine codex along with the 2nd Ed statlines for Wolf Guard and the like.

 

I mean, since we're playing with old rules anyway, right?

 

 

Hi. I am Mr.Comparison. You can call me MR.C for short, its cooler.

 

I just wanted to let you know that the little love child you just posted is horrid and ugly. You should have used the coat hanger.

 

;)

 

Seriously though, horrid comparison man. Rule books change, and when changed new rules, and old ones die off. If you look at it, all of 5th is an evolved Rouge Trader. The same applies for the codexs...certain abilities and rules have fallen to the way side, though others have been updated through FAQs and Codex:Space Marines.

 

So again...horrid comparison.

[Grey Mage]

Id rather have gate anyways.

[Hfran Morkai]

I wouldn't rather have gate but as suggested I'm now going to let this thread lie, you can continue debating without me but I'll just wait for our new dex and let my bloodclaws go splat