Portrayal of Abbaddon in the HH novels

[chunky04]

Does anyone find the portrayal pretty disappointing so far? Guy ends up being the mastermind of the Chaos armies, able to win over the multivarious factions enough to work together, and all we get is a psychopathic thug? Short of a mind meld with Aximand, I can't really see how he lives up to the rumoured clone son of Horus stuff.

[Brother Subtle]

i guess the first 3 books were more about Horus, so the books really focused on him (and loken for that matter).

I think from now on is where we will see Abbadon really start to evolve into the chaos mastermind we now know.

once the novels get to the battle of Terra i bet Abbadon will start to really feature more, in fact i hope one of the novels that 'actually' progress the heresy storyline features it from Abbadons viewpoint? kind of like fulgrim but for abbadon? i dunno.

 

Abbadon will be fleshed out... just give it time.

[Brother Nihm]

The portrayal of him in the HH novels is disappointing to say the least.

 

Here's the guy who went into the Tower of Silence and came out alive with Drach'Nyen, the guy who wields the Talon of Horus, brilliant enough to stay alive throughout the vigorous infighting amongst the Chaos factions and genius enough to gather them all up for not one, nor two, but 13 Black Crusades (many of those that were victories).

 

Yet all I see when reading the HH books is a dimwitted brute. :confused:

[Brother Subtle]

Here's the guy who went into the Tower of Silence and came out alive with Drach'Nyen, the guy who wields the Talon of Horus, brilliant enough to stay alive throughout the vigorous infighting amongst the Chaos factions and genius enough to gather them all up for not one, nor two, but 13 Black Crusades (many of those that were victories).

 

but rememeber hes NOT THAT GUY YET!, hes still just a first captain (not that thats a bad thing).

atm hes just a space marine (abet a tough one) and im guessing in time will come into his own.

 

and oh, i forgot to mention in my post that yes... i agree.

piss poor job of abbadon (so far).

[Inquisitor Engel]

and genius enough to gather them all up for not one, nor two, but 13 Black Crusades (many of those that were victories).

 

Not ALL the Black Crusades were headed directly by Abaddon, IIRC.

 

I was really pleased to find out he had a first name. :)

[Beef]

MAybe you need to be a brute to kick all your army into obediance

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Yet all I see when reading the HH books is a dimwitted brute. -_-

 

You don't get much character out of a guy who's always a supremely powerful Chaos overlord. You need to start somewhere, make people identify with the character, and then make him grow into his future role. A dimwitted brute who goes on to bigger and better things is preferrable to a very shallow character who comes across as a combination of every stereotype villain in history.

[Brother Nihm]

Yet all I see when reading the HH books is a dimwitted brute. :)

 

You don't get much character out of a guy who's always a supremely powerful Chaos overlord. You need to start somewhere, make people identify with the character, and then make him grow into his future role. A dimwitted brute who goes on to bigger and better things is preferrable to a very shallow character who comes across as a combination of every stereotype villain in history.

Too true but, seeing just a hint of what's to come would have given him much more character than the current: 'durrr Abaddon angry, smash you', he should be First Captain for a reason y'know. :)

[Sons of Horus]

well he does seem pretty stupid :lol: honestly i don't know how they will make him into a genius.

[jakiwis]

Actually, the way Abbaddon's protrayal in the HH novels is just the way he at the current timeline. He was a brute, and he is still a mindless brute. He was just restrained by Horus during the heresy, without Horus, and having the full hordes of Chaos with him, he can be hte brute that he really is.

 

Look at this, he led 13 black crusades, only the 12th (gothic war) has a semblance of success. Look at it, he is a 13 time loser! I think he hasnt transcended to deamonhood because deep inside he is a failure of epic proportions. His crusades barely got past the cadian sector and in the last major wolrdwide campaign, it was the orks that got major wins in the form of 2 forgeworlds. Also being the successor of the Heresy army, his schemes are really pathetic compared to other schemes like Ahriman's wanting the secrets of the Black Library.

 

Also if you add the books and all, one of the major Chaos victories was fromthe Iron Warriors in the novel Storm of Iron. Granted Abbaddon ordered it, but it was the Iron Warriors who pulled it off.

 

I mean he failed to protect Horus during the heresy and his crusades failed 13 times. It pains me as a chaos sympathiser that Gazghul Thraka is smarter than he is. Abbaddon is a brute with a big stick, the way before the Heresy and until now. I would say Cypher is way cooler. Infinitely cooler.

[Lay]

His crusades barely got past the cadian sector

12 out of 13 times.

 

in the last major wolrdwide campaign, it was the orks that got major wins in the form of 2 forgeworlds.

Yes, the Orks were successful in the Scarus sector but Chaos still won the campaign.

 

Also being the successor of the Heresy army, his schemes are really pathetic compared to other schemes like Ahriman's wanting the secrets of the Black Library.

He has the same mission like Horus before him, and Ahriman has tried to reach his goal for ten thousand years just like Abaddon.

[Lucifer Fellblade]

I think as a character Abaddon won't/wouldn't really start to evolve until after Horus dies. Horus is everything to Abaddon, everything he does is for Horus, it's only once Horus dies that Abaddon can really step out of his shadow and become his own character with his own desires.

[Prathios]

Actually I don't really get were the dim-witted portion of this argument comes from. I took his manurisms to mean he was obstinate and asinine. I think he was the biggest jerk I've seen in a book in a long time. I think he wasn't the Dr. Doom some of you want him to be but lets be honest, after 13 crusades Dr. Doom would have gotten a win or two now wouldn't he? He is simply a powerful and dark apostle of Horus and fills the void through his shear presence. It is mentioned that he has a powerful presence several times. I think he is a beat stick with leadership capabilities and that works for me. Lots of great leaders were just that, so it makes sense. If every villain were Dr. Doom it would get a bit boring would it not?

[Sons of Horus]

i do agree that Abaddon is a failure compared to Horus but it does take more than 1 race to halt his black crusades (eldar anyone :ph34r:).

[Terrible_Trygon]

Well the Chaos Marines of the Black Crusades are on equal terms number wise with the number of Loyalist Space Marines involved in the Black Crusades. The only difference is that on top of a equal number of loyalist marines to fight, they have to deal with millions of human troops. Essentially what the Chaos Marines are pulling off in the Black Crusades is comparable to the 300 Spartans fighting the armies of Persia, and coming close to actually winning.

 

Abbadon did not lead all of the Crusades. He led the first one, in which he was faced with the might of the entire Imperial military. As in literally everything. In the second one he was only stopped after almost six years of constant fighting without reinforcement. He lead the 4th Black Crusade in which got quite deep into Imperial Space before he was stopped. Next he led the 7th Black Crusades which was called the Ghost War because the Chaos armies disappeared after spewing out of the Eye of Terror, showing up now and then in raids before vanishing again. After a massacre of the Blood Angel's forces, killing off a good portion of the chapter's numbers, they left the Imperium alone. The Imperium was subject to constant panic and inflicted disorder and chaos upon itself due to fear of attack. In the 12th Black Crusade Abbadon had to deal with the Imperium and the Eldar at once in his quest for the Black Stone Fortresses. He managed to go off with two of them. The other four were destroyed by the C'tan Deceiver itself. And finally the 13th Black Crusade. Abbadon leads his forces against over 60+ entire regiments of Guard and 30+ chapters of Space Marines. That is over six million Guardsmen and thirty thousand Space Marines. The Imperial Forces also had air and space superiority. And Abbadon is winning. Sources in the Necron Codex imply that the war will be taken to Terra itself, taking advantage of some type of conflict involving the Adepts of Mars and a big secret yet unrevealed.

 

The whole Abbadon = Fail thing was created by /tg/, a board on 4chan, as a joke, nothing more, nothing less. It also has little to do with the discussion.

[Brother Nihm]

Look at this, he led 13 black crusades, only the 12th (gothic war) has a semblance of success. Look at it, he is a 13 time loser! I think he hasnt transcended to deamonhood because deep inside he is a failure of epic proportions. His crusades barely got past the cadian sector and in the last major wolrdwide campaign, it was the orks that got major wins in the form of 2 forgeworlds. Also being the successor of the Heresy army, his schemes are really pathetic compared to other schemes like Ahriman's wanting the secrets of the Black Library.

Well not quite, he has accomplished great things after The Heresy.

 

 

The First Black Crusade - Many worlds left as burned husks, Abaddon acquires Drachn'nyen.

 

The Fourth Black Crusade - Abaddon attacks and destroys the Citadel of Kromarch on El'Phanor, but the cost was enormous and he is repelled by the Imperial counter-attack.

 

The Seventh Black Crusade - The heretics conducted lightning raids across the Segmentum Obscuras.

Slaughter of the Blood Angels at Mackan.

Abaddon captures the Hand of Darkness (it's lost again on it's way back to the EoT)

 

The Tenth Black Crusade - The Black Crusade floods out on the opposite side of the Eye to the Cadian Gate, attacking Helica and the capitol world, Thracian Primaris. The Chaos assault is fatally delayed when the Iron Warriors attack the Iron Hands on Medusa. But wait, what happened in Storm of Iron exactly? :ph34r:

 

The Twelfth Black Crusade - the forces of Abaddon raided the planets of Purgatory and Ornsworld, capturing two alien artefacts known as the 'Hand of Darkness' and the 'Eye of Night'.

 

He also acquires the Talismans of Vaul during the Gothic War.

 

The Thirteenth Black Crusade - Meh, GW dropped the ball on that one. :lol:

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Yes, the only thing holding Abaddon off is the Imperial Navy, who keep coming up trumps. Again. And again. And again (at least until the Necrons show up). That's what Abaddon (or rather, GW) doesn't get - you need to beat the Navy. Then you're sorted.

[Terrible_Trygon]

It is not a case of Abbadon not getting it. It is a case of the Imperium being able to build ships faster then he can. He needs human labour to build ships, and it is hard to take humans into the warp without them going insane. Lets not forget why he built Planet Killer and tried to aquire the Blackstone Fortresses.

[Tutteman]

Abaddon won't develop till Horus is dead. Someone already said it, and he has got 10,000 years to develop into what we see now...And remember, he' the first captain. He's didn't get the post by brunting and shashing skulls. Presumably he is some tactical genius. He's just in horus' shadow as when is Horus not going to take control?

 

Personally I thought that Abaddon has much less forces then the imperium, but the Imperium has to defend a galaxy, he doesn't even have to defend his base of operations because it's a ^_^ ing madhouse thanks to the chaos gods and to go there is almost suicide. Just my thoughts :D

[Prathios]

Well the Chaos Marines of the Black Crusades are on equal terms number wise with the number of Loyalist Space Marines involved in the Black Crusades. The only difference is that on top of a equal number of loyalist marines to fight, they have to deal with millions of human troops. Essentially what the Chaos Marines are pulling off in the Black Crusades is comparable to the 300 Spartans fighting the armies of Persia, and coming close to actually winning.

 

Abbadon did not lead all of the Crusades. He led the first one, in which he was faced with the might of the entire Imperial military. As in literally everything. In the second one he was only stopped after almost six years of constant fighting without reinforcement. He lead the 4th Black Crusade in which got quite deep into Imperial Space before he was stopped. Next he led the 7th Black Crusades which was called the Ghost War because the Chaos armies disappeared after spewing out of the Eye of Terror, showing up now and then in raids before vanishing again. After a massacre of the Blood Angel's forces, killing off a good portion of the chapter's numbers, they left the Imperium alone. The Imperium was subject to constant panic and inflicted disorder and chaos upon itself due to fear of attack. In the 12th Black Crusade Abbadon had to deal with the Imperium and the Eldar at once in his quest for the Black Stone Fortresses. He managed to go off with two of them. The other four were destroyed by the C'tan Deceiver itself. And finally the 13th Black Crusade. Abbadon leads his forces against over 60+ entire regiments of Guard and 30+ chapters of Space Marines. That is over six million Guardsmen and thirty thousand Space Marines. The Imperial Forces also had air and space superiority. And Abbadon is winning. Sources in the Necron Codex imply that the war will be taken to Terra itself, taking advantage of some type of conflict involving the Adepts of Mars and a big secret yet unrevealed.

 

The whole Abbadon = Fail thing was created by /tg/, a board on 4chan, as a joke, nothing more, nothing less. It also has little to do with the discussion.

 

Well this is where you might be uninformed. Its not the 300 spartans you make it out to be. The Chaos fleets are made up of traitor gaurd, cultists, daemons, and marines. These come in huge numbers and you never hear about Chaos invading or attacking anything without numerical superiority. Chaos constantly finds new recruits. And the Imperium is fighting wars against the Tyranids, Orks, Eldar, Tau, and Necrons so their numbers are limited in what they can actually field against Chaos.

 

You also mention that they can't build ships fast enough. No actually inside the warp their our planets that are hollowed out and turned into giant forges that can churn out hundreds of ships a day. Problem is that warp crafted machines dissolve in real space just like daemons so they have to make their ships outside the warp. While this is a problem it isn't one they have trouble dealing with since they steal and modify existing ships and constantly take over imperial planets and convert their resources to chaos.

 

No the crusades have a lot going for them and their failure is a testament to the defense made by the imperials, the intervention of the Eldar and Abbadons being not so awesome at strategery ^_^ . Good leader, poor strategist. It happens.

[TheDarkApostle]

Let's not all forget that Abbadon did wipe out the Blood Angels first company single handily though. (Which was the reason the Blood Angels hated him, or rather, the Talon, back in 3'rd Ed'.)

 

And to those of you saying that Abbadon is a failure for not being successful in any of his 13 Crusades / nor being a Daemon Prince yet;

 

Being a Daemon Prince would mean that he is immortal, something Horus was not. His whole thing is about being better than Horus, of course he has to still be mortal when he overthrows the Imperium in order to best his "father".

 

And on the failure part, I'm quite sure I've read that each and every Crusade so far as been a success in terms of Abbadon achieving exactly what his goal with each Crusade was. Add to that that each Crusade so far has been a test of various strategies to see how the Imperium reacts on each of them. Which would imply that he still has to actually go all out against them.

 

Also if you read between the lines all of the Crusades can be seen as simple actions conducted by Abbadon in order to sate the blood thirst of the Chaos Astartes, in order to stop them from completely destroying themselves until he has finished what ever his planning / preparing. :)

 

TDA

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Being a Daemon Prince would mean that he is immortal, something Horus was not. His whole thing is about being better than Horus, of course he has to still be mortal when he overthrows the Imperium in order to best his "father".

 

Yes, I'm pretty sure Abaddon has actually rejected Daemonhood at one point.

[Rain]

The Blood Angels didn't hate the Talon because he killed their vets, they hate it because it strangled their primarch. Also it wasn't just Abaddon that killed the BA, it was also a whole bunch of berzerkers. But I agree that he is characterized as an annoying brute. I was really hoping GW would play up the fallen hero aspect of the Heresy and describe some of the future traitors as valorous and honorable men that lost themselves and ending up becoming that which they initially swore to destroy.

 

Kind of like the Nietzschean idea that if you devote your life to fighting monsters you may become one yourself. Instead we get a bunch of Saturday morning cartoon villains that walk around cutting in line and not eating their vegetables, just pathetic. As for the Black Crusades, they succeed more than they have any right to, before the 13th Crusade campaign GW printed a list of the forces involved and the Imperial Navy outnumbered the Grand Fleet of the Despoiler something like 3-1 not very good odds.

 

Oh and where did you get the info on the 10th crusade Nihm? I looked it up on Lexicanum and all it says is that it was the "Conflict of Helica" and that the Iron Warriors defeated the Iron Hands at Medusa. Oh and Storm of Iron had nothing to do with this, it occurs just prior to the 13th crusade and involved an Iron Warriors Grand Company attacking a fortress world that contained a repository of gene seed, although the fortress was extremely well designed, it is revealed that it was actually built by the very same Warsmith that was now attacking it. Oopsie.

[Brother Chaplain Darius]

Spoiler Alert: All of the HH novels are garbage, as is anything in them. Anyone who has read the literary abortion that is Mechanicus would agree.

[Lucifer Fellblade]

Spoiler Alert: All of the HH novels are garbage, as is anything in them. Anyone who has read the literary abortion that is Mechanicus would agree.

 

Edgy. As. :).