Portrayal of Abbaddon in the HH novels

[jakiwis]

Well. The Iron Warriors got the Geneseed in Storm of Iron as a prelude to the 13th Black Crusade, and to what end did it serve him? To lose again.

Yes Abbaddon has small goals in every crusade, small simpleminded goals which he can acheive yet the whole notion of a crusade is the greater goal which at his 13th try still hasnt work. Actually Abbaddon cant be successful if your crusade got stopped, that is an Oxymoron there.

 

Also considering Abbaddon and the Chaos legions thinking the Imperium is weak, I'd be ashamed losing to weaklings and "pansy" space elves. On the contrary, Abbaddon is an angry terminator wearing version of moose, a big dumb jock who gets outsmarted by everyone. His plans are small and petty and because those plans work he forgets that he does have a crusade to finish.

 

I mean I have nothing against anyone and I love chaos and the HH novels but in readingthose novels it gave me a better understanding of the characters in chaos. I saw from the start who abbaddon is and that is why it does not shock me that he keeps losing his crusades. Also, remember that Horus chose his mournival for a reason. He chose Loken because he is the naysayer and the voice of reason, I can see that Horus chose Abbaddon becaus he is muscle of the mournival, thus does not require brains to be that.

[chunky04]

I am in aggreeance with Rain on the fallen hero thing. To me Aximand's fall was a lot more poignant in that he knew he was possibly damning himself and did it anyway, and if a character like Torgaddon were to fall it would be fascinating given the noble portrayal to this point.

 

To me Abbaddon as currently stands has been very successful as the Chaos leader du jour, which is why its somewhat vexing to see nothing that even hints at him being a smart tactician in what we've seen so far. It doesn't take much, a line here or there during some of the strategic meetings that displays he has some prowess in that area.

[DaemonPrinceDargor]

I think the novels show him for what he is.An insane brute.He was not the brains of the mournival,as was pointed out,he was there for his directness on matters.Under the command of Horus he is nothing more than a weapon to be wielded.He follows Horus unto the end without questioning anything.He thinks Horus is actually perfect in every sense of the word.And thats why he looses his mind when Horus gets killed.I the quote was,he plunged into the depths of madness and despair further than any mortal ever should(or something like that).He is a man driven by anger and the desire for vengeance rather than reason.And the directness of his crusades shows just that,he makes small goals and achieves them untill he can unleash the full fury of his Legions in one massive crusade that invades Terra,just like Horus did.One cant really destroy the huge beast that is the Imperium in one go...

 

 

Cheers! :lol:

 

PS:You dont need to be overly clever to be First captain,you need to follow orders well and complete your assigned tasks which Abby does quite well in 30k.

[Tyrannicide]

I agree with the above poster.

 

Abaddon was not the brains of the Mournival correct, he was a brute killer and an authoritative character. Which in turn, could potentially suggest why twelve of his Black Crusades have failed thus far. Hmm... :P

[Prathios]

Spoiler Alert: All of the HH novels are garbage, as is anything in them. Anyone who has read the literary abortion that is Mechanicus would agree.

 

I suppose you would like to provide a link to your great works of literary enlightenment? Or a list of books you think deserve unending praise? I get the feeling you don't enjoy life much.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Spoiler Alert: All of the HH novels are garbage, as is anything in them. Anyone who has read the literary abortion that is Mechanicus would agree.

 

Logically incorrect by your own premise. I have read Mechanicum and do not agree, indeed I thought it was one of the best so far. Therefore your argument does not stand up by its own rules. Perhaps it's best if we just name our opinions as opinions, rather than trying to prove anything with them.

 

Mind you, if you'd said Battle for the Abyss, I might have agreed . . .

[c-wrex]

I'm surprised it hasn't been touched on that Abbaddon doesn't necessarily have to be a total tactical genius when his primary troops are Astartes and infinite Daemons. He doesn't need to be the most gifted tactician when he can be totally confident that his armies will reliably smash anything he puts them against.

 

Instead of measuring what his crusades have accomplished in terms of goals and such, look at what each has done to the Imperium. I recall seeing somewhere that every single navy vessel and guard regiment is permanently on call in case the EoT begins to act up. Evey Imperial citizen knows and dreads the name of Abbaddon the Despoiler. I mean, the guy has an epithet. You simply have to be badass to have an epithet.

 

Given that the Imperium routinely dispatches assassins into the Eye, combined with the massive build-up of warriors stationed around the EoT at all times, just in case the 'Don comes a knockin, I'd say he has proven highly successful. The Imperium, and all of it's pawns, dance completely to his designs, each and every time.

[Senseilord Ashahara]

Yeah so where does this "Abaddon The Idiot" theme come from? Seriously, I can't work that one out.

and "Abaddon the Failure" is self evidently ridiculous.

 

And, with rare blots (in particular Counter's inability to write endings) the HH serise has been an uproarous sucessess. I especially like the humanisation of legendary, imfamous charactors and the exploration of where and why they fell, as opposed to the "Beacausethey'reevil" background of the early days.

And asaforementioned, the Abaddon of the HH serise isn't yet The Despoiler of 'our times' because he hasn't been fully exposed to the horror, betrayal, loss and guilt of the Heresy and it's aftermath

 

And for Throne's sake, he's been a soldier and an officer for decades - what Wildeian sort of wit are you expecting?

[Rain]

Abaddon doesn't need wit, he needs more character than your average cinderblock. Honestly, the HH novels are fun and all, but they are not "good" books. Even compared to pulp like Stephen King (well, the older SK) they are pretty bloody bad, and they are nothing at all when compared to pulp by people that actually tried like Lovecraft and Machen.

[Marshal Rohr]

They havn't really done anything from his perspective yet. So you can't get mad at him one way or the other...

[Senseilord Ashahara]

But he does have charactor: he has light hearted moments (well one I think but that counts), he has senseible moments and roughty toughty moments and fanatical ones too.

Anyway - should space marines be fully rounded 3 dimensional charactors reallly?

[Prathios]

Abaddon doesn't need wit, he needs more character than your average cinderblock. Honestly, the HH novels are fun and all, but they are not "good" books. Even compared to pulp like Stephen King (well, the older SK) they are pretty bloody bad, and they are nothing at all when compared to pulp by people that actually tried like Lovecraft and Machen.

 

I always like comments like this because they appear to be a statement of fact when they are pure opinion. It's simple taste. There is no magical definition for a good or bad book. There is simply "you liked it" or "you didn't". Ive taken plenty of classes in my day where a case is made for some of the classics to be a definition for a good writing but in the end no matter how "good" a book is people wont like it. I find that the HH books are very good, because at the end of the day I put them down with a smile and sense of satisfaction. Something that many "good" books fail at miserably.

[c-wrex]

Abaddon doesn't need wit, he needs more character than your average cinderblock. Honestly, the HH novels are fun and all, but they are not "good" books. Even compared to pulp like Stephen King (well, the older SK) they are pretty bloody bad, and they are nothing at all when compared to pulp by people that actually tried like Lovecraft and Machen.

 

I always like comments like this because they appear to be a statement of fact when they are pure opinion. It's simple taste. There is no magical definition for a good or bad book. There is simply "you liked it" or "you didn't". Ive taken plenty of classes in my day where a case is made for some of the classics to be a definition for a good writing but in the end no matter how "good" a book is people wont like it. I find that the HH books are very good, because at the end of the day I put them down with a smile and sense of satisfaction. Something that many "good" books fail at miserably.

 

 

Very well said. Opinion is everything. The only HH books I haven't enjoyed have been Battle for the Abyss and Descent of Angels. Just my opinion though.

 

As for Abby, he'll come around. Remember, if you could just walk the any walls before you, why would look for a door?

[Rain]

Fine, fine I will qualify my statements I just didn't feel like it because I already did in a prior thread on this very topic and didn't want to retype it all. Yes, "good" is subjective and blah blah blah enjoyment is important, but come on, the HH books are enjoyable in the same that candy is enjoyable, they are fun and all but they don't really make any statement or assert some new idea or even offer an interesting perspective on a period of time or a state of being or anything, they are just empty fun.

 

It really is like the difference between filling steak and a Hershey bar, both have their place, but one is considered "better" and for a reason, but yes it's all subjective and based on consensus, that should be obvious. Oh and I don't necessarily like everything that I think has merit, nor do I think that everything that I like has any deep merit (again beyond light fun) since I liked Salem's Lot though it was really just a cheesy vampire story and I didn't particularly like Catcher in the Rye though I can see its merit as a look into the oddly stunted American existentialism movement.

 

Oh and yes nothing has been written from Abe's perspective, but nothing was written from Torgaddon's either and he was interesting. Actually him and Tarvitz were quite well fleshed out I thought, and actually served a thematic purpose unlike Abaddon who seems to mostly exist because he was already created long before the books were written.

 

Edit: Oh and I should also probably say that I thought Legion was pretty good on its own as far as pulp goes, but the rest that I read (Horus Rising, Galaxy in Flames, Flight of the Eisenstein, Fulgrim) were all pretty bad, I just read them to get more fluff. The reason Legion stood out is that its characters were actually somewhat multi-dimensional (mostly Grammaticus) and by leaving certain things open to interpretation it adds to the immersion as instead of just telling you that something fishy is going on it shows you by providing you with the same fragmented information as the characters

[frostclaw222]

Couple things to bear in mind:

 

Horus has like as not encouraged such headstrong bellicosity in Abby's behavior as befits his role within the Mournival. But, now that the heresy is in full sway, it's only natural that Horus takes Abby under his wing as the Emperor did to him. The circle completing itself. I think we'll see Abaddon included more fully in Horus's schemes and stepping up a bit more in future writings of the Heresy.

 

Abaddon's Black Crusades all had limited, attainable goals, and seemed to play into one another. I think in addition to finally realizing that Horus was a fool, Abaddon also realized that the all-or-nothing approach was destined to failure. Abaddon is taking the long view, and pushing just far enough to get one more power piece, then consolidating his claims. Which tells me two things: Abaddon is much more dangerous than Horus in terms of his approach, and that we've yet to see the entirety of Horus's plan unveiled.

 

Just my thoughts. I could be wrong.

[Prathios]

Fine, fine I will qualify my statements I just didn't feel like it because I already did in a prior thread on this very topic and didn't want to retype it all. Yes, "good" is subjective and blah blah blah enjoyment is important, but come on, the HH books are enjoyable in the same that candy is enjoyable, they are fun and all but they don't really make any statement or assert some new idea or even offer an interesting perspective on a period of time or a state of being or anything, they are just empty fun.

 

It really is like the difference between filling steak and a Hershey bar, both have their place, but one is considered "better" and for a reason, but yes it's all subjective and based on consensus, that should be obvious. Oh and I don't necessarily like everything that I think has merit, nor do I think that everything that I like has any deep merit (again beyond light fun) since I liked Salem's Lot though it was really just a cheesy vampire story and I didn't particularly like Catcher in the Rye though I can see its merit as a look into the oddly stunted American existentialism movement.

 

Oh and yes nothing has been written from Abe's perspective, but nothing was written from Torgaddon's either and he was interesting. Actually him and Tarvitz were quite well fleshed out I thought, and actually served a thematic purpose unlike Abaddon who seems to mostly exist because he was already created long before the books were written.

 

Edit: Oh and I should also probably say that I thought Legion was pretty good on its own as far as pulp goes, but the rest that I read (Horus Rising, Galaxy in Flames, Flight of the Eisenstein, Fulgrim) were all pretty bad, I just read them to get more fluff. The reason Legion stood out is that its characters were actually somewhat multi-dimensional (mostly Grammaticus) and by leaving certain things open to interpretation it adds to the immersion as instead of just telling you that something fishy is going on it shows you by providing you with the same fragmented information as the characters

 

Well I appreciate your reply, Im sorry if it was something you already delved into too deeply elsewhere. I think one of my main problems is that consensus doesn't always make it right or even logical. I really enjoyed your comment on not liking things that have merit. I think this is where we can greatly agree. I can see why people punish high school students with the old man and the sea (I would never do this) but I truly hate the work itself. (On a side note I find existentialism horrifying.)

 

I would have very much liked to see more from Torgaddon's perspective.

 

Also I think that in the regard to good and bad I enjoy both witty and complicated stories I find I enjoy blunt action fests just as much. Perhaps I have tastes for the refined and unrefined but I would not consider any of the HH books bad. I even enjoyed Abyss. Perhaps I'm easy to please or perhaps just in the realm of 40k. Who can truly say?

[Corporal Van Halen]

I was kinda sad/pissed they killed Torgaddon. :P

[TheDarkApostle]

Guys, back on topic.

 

This is about how Abbadon's portrayal, not how anyone else's.

 

TDA

[Dràyhèn]

I view Abaddon as a ferocious brute with a mastermind comparable to few. He just hides that behind his fearsome authority and reputation. How was the Mechanicum proverb?

"Knowledge is power, hide it well"

He has all the good abilities of a successfull chaos lord; reputation, authority, leadership, unmatched combat-prowess and a mind capable of thinking and calculating in long term. He knows that Terra, the Imperium, can't be brought to its knees with one go.

He has defied daemonhood to show he is far better than Horus, to tear the shadow of failure away, which Horus cast upon them, to show that he can best Horus fairly, playing with the same terms. After all, he has a lot more difficulties in uniting the Legions, than Horus had. Horus just needed to whisper in the ears of the Primarchs loyal to him. Between all the infighting going on the Chaos side, that's not an easy task.

 

Well,I intently modified it :ph34r:

[Sons of Horus]

actually it said "knowledge is power, GUARD it well" it never said hide it well :huh: