General Question

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Hello there -

 

This thread is probilly a very very very long shot. but who was the very first person to recieve the gene seed and training of the grey knights- who was the rummored first chapter master - and do we know any more on where their gene -seed came from (rummored to be from the emperor- but that still just a rummor ) even if it is very likely - also can we expect to see anything higher than a grey knight or custode to come our way in the future?

 

please post ideas and finding's - Thank you

 

 

 

 

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A Grey Knight is a man who has given everything he once was to become nothing - so he may fight for everything- even if he does not know it...............................................

[Mattsama]

I looked this up 2 days ago after you asked, but kept getting side track from posting, so sorry it took a bit to respond.

 

Long and the short of it: No. No one knows where their Gene-Seed is from.

 

According to the Index Astates (2?? I have first and second and can't remmeber which one covers GKs and Deathwatch now... I think its 2), the Gene-Seed of the Grey Knights was specifically designed for them, and as a result they are a unique chapter with no predecessor or successor chapters.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

The official rumour is that it comes from the Emperor. That's generally accepted as a standard line, since there's been no other rumours coming out of the Design Studio, although it is still a rumour in the context of 40k.

 

There's not been any information on the first Grey Knight, although some people have cited Captain Garro. How they got from his speculative link to founding of the Inquisition to being a Grey Knight, I don't know. Still others have cited Loken, for reasons which I don't understand, even more than I don't understand putting forward Garro. Full 'discussion' can be found in this thread.

 

There's not been any information on their first Chapter Master either - probably because they don't have one. :lol: They're controlled by a council of Grand Masters, one of whom sits on the Inner Conclave of the Inquisition.

[GlauG]

I can't remember where I heard this from, so take this with a HUGE pinch of salt, but I remember reading somewhere that the GKs were made of Gene-seed from loyallist marines from the Traitor legions, who escaped Istvaan IV and survived until the formation of the Inquisiton. Somehow. :/

[Grand Master Tyrak]

GlauG Posted Today, 01:37 AM

I can't remember where I heard this from, so take this with a HUGE pinch of salt, but I remember reading somewhere that the GKs were made of Gene-seed from loyallist marines from the Traitor legions, who escaped Istvaan IV and survived until the formation of the Inquisiton. Somehow. :/

 

Yes, that's part of the Loken argument. It comes from Horus Heresy: Collected Visions, I think, but then again that's the same book that contained Torgaddon turned to Chaos. It didn't last long before being retconned.

[Kaled100]

but then again that's the same book that contained Torgaddon turned to Chaos. It didn't last long before being retconned.

I prefer to believe that rather than being retconned, it's simply another marine called Torgaddon who appears in Visions. It's not inconcievable that there's more than one marine with that name.

 

The scene in Visions where Malcador introduced eight Astartes to the Emperor who had stayed loyal while their legions had turned and whose psychic powers would prove useful in combatting the forces of chaos do seem like a good starting point for the Grey Knights. Whether they are the source of the Grey Knights geneseed is another question that I don't intend to get into now, but it seems clear that those marines helped found the Grey Knights. Perhaps training, advising and maybe leading the chapter until it was properly established.

[Kaled100]

There's not been any information on the first Grey Knight, although some people have cited Captain Garro. How they got from his speculative link to founding of the Inquisition to being a Grey Knight, I don't know.

There is some evidence that Garro may have been one of the first Grey Knights - whether or not you consider it strong evidence is up to you. Check out the pictures Garro, Hero of Isstvan, Ula, Doom of Heroes and The Sigil of Malcador in the Visions books.

 

EDIT: Sorry about the double post...

[Doomaflatchi]

I'm personally of the opinion that Garro could never, under any circumstances, have been a Grey Knight. Firstly, he's not psychic, and secondly, he was already grafted with gene-seed -- meaning that he could not have received the new mysterious Grey Knight gene-seed. If he doesn't have the gene-seed, then no matter what color power armor he wore, he's not a Grey Knight.

 

As for the Grey Knight's creation, the currently supported lore is that their creation was directly ordered by the Emperor himself sometime between the Horus Heresy and the Second Founding in order to create a force that would be immune to Chaos's corruption. Originally they were thought not to be descended from any of the original twenty Space Marine Legions, having been created from a unique gene-seed, rumoured to come from the Emperor of Mankind himself (Index Astartes II).

 

Another possible source for their gene-seed is a purified 'cocktail' of the eight loyal Space Marines from the traitor legions, presented to the Emperor by Malcador the Sigillite, during the Siege of the Emperor's Palace. Malcador had been charged by the Emperor to gather a group of people whose loyalty, courage and strength of mind was unquestionable. The resulting eight marines possessed paranormal skills that were kept dormant (in respect of the Council of Nikaea's previous ruling) and had cast aside former loyalty to legion and Primarch. The Emperor is believed to have responded, "Malcador, you have judged well. These eight Space Marines do indeed have a vital role to play in the future of the Imperium, though veiled in secrecy will they be." (Index Astartes II, Codex: Deamonhunters, & Realm of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness)

 

In the Grey Knight novels, Ben Counter stated that the Grey Knights themselves are in fact happy that they have no known progenitor and regard it as one of their greatest strengths, as it allows them to remain completely loyal to the cause and purpose of the Emperor, and not be tied down to the dogmatic views of a long-dead father figure (Dark Adeptus). While people may argue over the quality of many of Counter's ideas, they still remain as official cannon for the time being.

 

No official 'first Knight' has ever been stated, nor have any of the original group of Knights been named. However, even if they had, it would be a largely moot point, as the Codex states that Grey Knights have no previous memories of their lives before becoming Knights to enhance their purity of purpose, so that their past cannot be used against them.

 

Anyway, that's all the lore I can find on it. :)

[Grand Master Tyrak]

he was already grafted with gene-seed -- meaning that he could not have received the new mysterious Grey Knight gene-seed. If he doesn't have the gene-seed, then no matter what color power armor he wore, he's not a Grey Knight.

 

You would say something like that, now I have to come back and clarify my opinion. :P

 

I agree with the above, but I don't rule out him training the original Grey Knights. Even then, I don't see what sets him apart from every other loyalist who survives the Heresy, since they're all veteran Chaos fighters.

 

While people may argue over the quality of many of Counter's ideas, they still remain as official cannon for the time being.

 

As long as they do not contradict the Design Studio, or were put in to advance the story at the expense of fluff. AFAWK, neither applies to this example, but remember the Black Library still has limitations.

 

"Malcador, you have judged well. These eight Space Marines do indeed have a vital role to play in the future of the Imperium, though veiled in secrecy will they be." (Index Astartes II, Codex: Deamonhunters, & Realm of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness)

 

That's Collected Visions, isn't it? I don't know about Slaves to Darkness, but it's not in C:DH, or Index Astartes: GK & DW (parts of which have now been retconned, e.g. the GKs no longer have a Chapter Master)

[Grand Master Caloth]

I looked this up 2 days ago after you asked, but kept getting side track from posting, so sorry it took a bit to respond.

 

Long and the short of it: No. No one knows where their Gene-Seed is from.

 

According to the Index Astates (2?? I have first and second and can't remmeber which one covers GKs and Deathwatch now... I think its 2), the Gene-Seed of the Grey Knights was specifically designed for them, and as a result they are a unique chapter with no predecessor or successor chapters.

 

 

Actually, it is mostly generally accepted the Geneseed came from the the last remaining Company of Deathguard that didnt go over to Horus during the Heresy. Thats bout the best shot as we can figure out in the stores round Tacoma, WA

[Kaled100]

Actually, it is mostly generally accepted the Geneseed came from the the last remaining Company of Deathguard that didnt go over to Horus during the Heresy.

I don't know that I'd say that theory was the most generally accepted one. In fact, I wouldn't say that any theory is 'generally' accepted, different people believe different things.

 

What convinced you that the Grey Knights have Death Guard geneseed? Although there is an implication in the canon that Garro and other loyalist members of the traitor legions may have been involved in the formation of the Grey Knights, there has never been any mention that this includes their geneseed.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Actually, it is mostly generally accepted the Geneseed came from the the last remaining Company of Deathguard that didnt go over to Horus during the Heresy.

I don't know that I'd say that theory was the most generally accepted one. In fact, I wouldn't say that any theory is 'generally' accepted, different people believe different things.

 

What convinced you that the Grey Knights have Death Guard geneseed? Although there is an implication in the canon that Garro and other loyalist members of the traitor legions may have been involved in the formation of the Grey Knights, there has never been any mention that this includes their geneseed.

 

Indeed, the only bit we have on Garro's future is a strong implication that he helps with the formation of the Inquisition. Given that the first Inquisitors were said to be Astartes, there is no clear link to him even participating in the Grey Knights.

 

With regards to general acceptance, no theory is generally accepted. There's just too many people out there for one person to answer for. Guess as much as you like, but don't make the mistake of thinking you can speak for everyone. Personally, I'd guess that the standard codex line would be generally accepted, if any, because it's the one most people will have access to. After all, if you've not heard of any other explanations, how can you accept them?

[Kaled100]

Indeed, the only bit we have on Garro's future is a strong implication that he helps with the formation of the Inquisition. Given that the first Inquisitors were said to be Astartes, there is no clear link to him even participating in the Grey Knights.

You're right, Garro wasn't mentioned with regard to what is assumed to be the Grey Knights, that was eight psychic Astartes who had forsaken their former legions. I wouldn't say that the first Inquisitors were said to be Astartes - although there were Astartes amongst those collected by Malcador when he was gathering people to form an elite group of investigators, there's nothing to say that the Astartes became Inquisitors.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I wouldn't say that the first Inquisitors were said to be Astartes - although there were Astartes amongst those collected by Malcador when he was gathering people to form an elite group of investigators, there's nothing to say that the Astartes became Inquisitors.

 

It was part of older fluff, that (like so much) was vastly shortened as new editions came out. Four were human (as seen in the short story at the beginning of the Thorian Sourcebook for Inquisitor), and the rest were Astartes. I don't have an exact number for them though, it could well have been the eight psychic Marines chosen by Malcador. Quite a bit of the HH series and the HH artbooks pick up on older bits of fluff.

[Kaled100]

It was part of older fluff, that (like so much) was vastly shortened as new editions came out.

Are you sure? Not wishing to sound rude or anything, but I'm pretty well read on Inquisition fluff and the only two stories I know of about the founding is the Malcador one and the one in the Thorian sourcebook, neither of which mention the first Inquisitors being Astartes.

 

Which books are you referring to when you talk about 'older fluff'?

[Tyrannicide]

And this is a classic example of what gets my ire going. I don't understand why GW likes to replace old, valuable background with rules and pricetags. Pisses me off sometimes, I can understand that they'd like to market the 40k universe more and make more customers, but why did they have to toss out innumerable sources of fluff on their new website? :rolleyes:

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Are you sure? Not wishing to sound rude or anything, but I'm pretty well read on Inquisition fluff and the only two stories I know of about the founding is the Malcador one and the one in the Thorian sourcebook, neither of which mention the first Inquisitors being Astartes.

 

Which books are you referring to when you talk about 'older fluff'?

 

2nd ed. I shall have to look it up, so consider it suspect for the moment.

[Kaled100]

2nd ed. I shall have to look it up, so consider it suspect for the moment.

If you could I'd appreciate it, I've got quite a few of the 2nd Ed books and I don't remember reading anything like that - it'd be interesting if it was true though.

 

And this is a classic example of what gets my ire going. I don't understand why GW likes to replace old, valuable background with rules and pricetags.

It is a shame that most of the fluff was removed from the GW website - fortunately there are web archives and cached pages where you can still get hold of most of it. A lot does end up on sites like Lexicanum, but unfortunately that site has a lot of uncited information and speculation presented as fact. I also keep spotting the odd bit of fan-created material on there, usually things that have somehow become so widespread that people mistakenly believe them to be canon.

[spjaco]

Now could a chapter that was wiped out, save a soul survivor, who is in turn taken in by the Grey Knights, and as such become an associate member, perhaps?

Just a thought.

[Eddie Orlock]

I prefer to subscribe to the idea that Grey Knights are their own custom blend made in the image of the Emperor, and that while some 'Traitor-Traitor' marines may have formed the basis of the formation, there would have been a good chance that they'd have already had their seed harvested at an earlier point, or would have been ruled out for some other reason.

 

I'd support a role for a non-psychic garro, or others by citing older fluff that establishes that grey knights were either psychics of uncommon character and strength of will, or, and more likely, as close as they could get to nulls without being dragged off to the culexus temple, as both types were resistant to taint and daemonic influences. However, such characters would have a membership not unlike the original order of caliban having been surgically altered into the sons of Johnson, and unable to provide further progeny.

 

As for the first implantee, under the premise of the knights of today being their own special blend, it would very likely be a rigorously psychically warded gene servitor in the lab of some Magos Genitor deep in the vaults of Mars or Earth under the Emperors psychic instructions.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

spjaco Posted Today, 01:30 PM

Now could a chapter that was wiped out, save a soul survivor, who is in turn taken in by the Grey Knights, and as such become an associate member, perhaps?

 

I doubt it. They'd not have been subjected to the rigourous training that all Grey Knights must undertake, and there is already an Inquisition Chamber Militant that recruits from existing Chapters without the need for any special qualifications - the Deathwatch. I don't see the situation ever arising where it would be advantageous to take a late recruit into the Grey Knights.