Clarification on number of Attacks in HTH for Troops

[MechSpacewulf]

Grey Hunter :1 attack +1 for the extra hth weapon(bolt pistol) +1 if they charge= 3 possible in a charge or Counter Attack or 2 attacks standard

 

 

Blood Claw :1 attack +1 for extra hth weapon (bolt pistol) + 2 for the Berzerk Charge = 4 possible in a charge or counter attack or 2 attacks standard

 

Am I adding correctly?

 

Thanks.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Looks good to me.

[OnlyInDeath]

Grey Hunter :1 attack +1 for the extra hth weapon(bolt pistol) +1 if they charge= 3 possible in a charge or Counter Attack or 2 attacks standard

 

 

Blood Claw :1 attack +1 for extra hth weapon (bolt pistol) + 2 for the Berzerk Charge = 4 possible in a charge or counter attack or 2 attacks standard

 

Am I adding correctly?

 

Thanks.

 

If you keep the bolt pistol/ccw on grey hunters, then yes, that is right.

 

If, instead, you use bolters, you will get 2 attacks no matter what as follows:

 

If charging, you have 1 base, +1 for charging + 0 for true grit (does not work on the charge)

 

If charged, you have 1 base, +1 for true grit OR +1 for countercharge if Ld is passed, so 2 attacks no matter what

 

Any subsequent round of combat, 1 base, +1 for true grit.

 

So, in otherwords, there's no way you WONT have 2 attacks w/ a GH armed w/ a bolter, other than him having a powerfist or being dead.

[Grimtooth]

I am at work and without a codex but what is the exact wording for counterattack in the BRB? It just dawned on my that if counterattack uses the wording "as if they had charged" then it is wholly within the rules to say that SW would get both the True Grit bonus and the counterattack bonus.

 

SW do not get the benefit of True Grit when they charge. They should get the bonus when they are in a situation, as if they charged since they are not charging.

 

The description of True Grit describes a bolter as being counted as a bolt pistol in terms of two ccw, but being too bulky to get a charge bonus. However you are not charging, you are just treating this situation as charging for a charge bonus with the following conditions:

 

1. It isn't a charge done during the Space Wolves assault turn. They are not moving as they would if they declared an assault. They follow none of the rules for declaring or moving into base to base with an enemy model as if assaulting.

2. The Space Wolves are already in base to base, or at least should be due to initial opponent assault and counter-assault by SW player.

 

Now under every other circumstance in this instance the Space Wolves player would get the following:

 

+1 attack for base attack

+1 attack for two ccw (True Grit)

 

Now when charged it should be:

 

+1 attack for base attack

+1 attack for True Grit "since it isn't a charge but only "as if" they charged."

+1 attack for Counter Attack

 

Just devil's advocating.

[Wolf Guard Nostromo]

While I love abit of devils advocating, and trust me, I do, your logic hurts not my ale ridden brain but my heart for all that is good is the world... or should I say '41st Millenium'. Its this logic:

 

+1 attack for True Grit "since it isn't a charge but only "as if" they charged."

 

I think my straight jacket has just arrived :D

 

All I can really say is that I wish it was true but that onlyindeath has said it all really.

[Grimtooth]

Well I can sit on a toilet dropping a deuce or I can sit on the toilet "as if" dropping a deuce. One instance is clearly different then the other.

 

So while Counterattack gives the bonus as if charging, the Space Wolves are not in fact charging and therefore should benefit from True Grit.

 

A little better? Need more?

 

Look in the BRB and read the rules for Assault. When Space Wolves use the rule Counterattack as written in the BRB, after being charged, do they follow any of the rules for Assaulting as written in the BRB?

 

Counterattack does not include any of the rules of assault when it is done. You don't roll for difficult terrain to see if you are in range to charge, you don't move into base to base with the nearest enemy model, etc, etc. You roll a leadership test and when you pass, you get a bonus attack as if you had charged. Like I said, I am in my office so not 100% sure, but it doesn't say, "counts as charging" which would negate True Grit since it clearly tells you treat Counterattack as charging.

 

Counterattack sets conditions that must be met (successful leadership test) for a bonus attack, that is all.

[Grey Mage]

But this isnt in your can. This is a game. If your going to argue it that way then your group is quite right in saying that you cant get +2 attacks from your Bloodclaws.

 

But personally I think your grasping at straws. You get the +1 attack bonus as if you had charged, and thus you do not get the +1 counter attack bonus as if you had charged. Why? Because "as if you had charged" means that all the charge modifiers are put into place. That includes the on that negates true grit.

 

This as if they had charged is a set condition. You cant miss it, and the way your arguing says you see it and are looking for an exploit.

[Grimtooth]

Just got home and was able to read the BRB to clarify. It says to treat it as if they assaulted that turn, hence no True Grit/Counterattack combo since they are in fact assaulting during an opponents turn.

[Schertenleib]

Ok, just so I am clear...

 

15 man unit of Blood Claws (with 3 PF) charges .....

 

57 attacks + 3 str 8 attacks?

[SeanyPrawny]

if you have 3 PF then you get 9 PF attacks 1 basic and 2 for charging from each blood claw. Assuming you mean charging, if basic combat then yes only 3.

[Schertenleib]

So...

 

12 models getting 4 attacks (bolt pistol, ccw, +2 for being crazy sob's)= 48

3 models with PF getting 3 attacks (all at strength 8) = 9

 

 

Right?

 

Can Blood Claws berzerk charge on the counter charge?

[Valerian]

So...

 

12 models getting 4 attacks (bolt pistol, ccw, +2 for being crazy sob's)= 48

3 models with PF getting 3 attacks (all at strength 8) = 9

 

 

Right?

 

Right.

 

Can Blood Claws berzerk charge on the counter charge?

 

Yes, that is the consensus.

[dragon950]

Counter-Attack in the rulebook is described as just moving in so everyone can hit if possible and then rolling for leadership for the extra attack. So Grey Hunters that have bolters and counter-attack and pass the leadership test do get 3 attacks. Blood Claws that counter-attack and pass the leadership test only get 3 attacks since they did not charge. Its like pilling in except its done at the start of the assualt phase instead of the end.

[OnlyInDeath]

Counter-Attack in the rulebook is described as just moving in so everyone can hit if possible and then rolling for leadership for the extra attack. So Grey Hunters that have bolters and counter-attack and pass the leadership test do get 3 attacks. Blood Claws that counter-attack and pass the leadership test only get 3 attacks since they did not charge. Its like pilling in except its done at the start of the assualt phase instead of the end.

 

Actually, it says "as if they had charged." So you would get your attacks as if you had charged. Since bloodclaws get +2 attacks for berzerker charge, they get +2 attacks as if they had charged. It's not really hard and I'm amazed there are still people out there arguing against it. If even my local, SW hating blackshirt can be like "yep, that's really damn broken especially with pelts; enjoy it while it lasts till the next dex," then the rest of the world should be able to.

 

You are actually combinging the rules for Counter Attack, which is a universal special rule, and the new "pile in-ish" move which actually does happen at the start of combat regardless of the counterattack rule or not. To give those models with counterattack a purpose in the game, the universal special rule was changed to the good 'ol "as if they had charged." It's nasty, it makes you think twice about charging wolves, but it's THE RULE that makes wolves what they are. We counterattack, everyone else that's assault based gets thier bonus for charging. Ours is from shooting the hell out of you, THEN countercharging once you get tired of being shot up and try to charge us. Bloodclaws are of course the exception, but rumor has it they will get furious charge instead of berzerk charge, so they will still be just as nasty to charge as to get charge from (check the math-hammer, 1-2 less kills for the ability to strike first. yes please!).

[dragon950]

So then wouldn't the Grey Hunters not get an extra attack from counter-attack if they were using bolters. Because as you stated it's "as if they had charged" and true-grit says that if they are equiped with a bolter then they get the extra attack in close combat but not the attack bonus for charging.

[Grimtooth]

Counter-Attack in the rulebook is described as just moving in so everyone can hit if possible and then rolling for leadership for the extra attack. So Grey Hunters that have bolters and counter-attack and pass the leadership test do get 3 attacks. Blood Claws that counter-attack and pass the leadership test only get 3 attacks since they did not charge. Its like pilling in except its done at the start of the assualt phase instead of the end.

 

No it isn't. Moving in after you have been assaulted so everyone can hit is called DEFENDERS REACT, pg 34 of the BRB.

 

 

Get assaulted>>>Defenders React>>>Roll for Counter-Attack

[Grey Mage]

So then wouldn't the Grey Hunters not get an extra attack from counter-attack if they were using bolters. Because as you stated it's "as if they had charged" and true-grit says that if they are equiped with a bolter then they get the extra attack in close combat but not the attack bonus for charging.

 

You are correct... GHs with Bolters dont get the extra attack when counter-attacking unless they are armed with a powerfist, in wich case you simply choose not to use True Grit and gain the counterattack bonus instead. Remember, true grit is an optional rule.

[Grimtooth]

So then wouldn't the Grey Hunters not get an extra attack from counter-attack if they were using bolters. Because as you stated it's "as if they had charged" and true-grit says that if they are equiped with a bolter then they get the extra attack in close combat but not the attack bonus for charging.

 

You are correct... GHs with Bolters dont get the extra attack when counter-attacking unless they are armed with a powerfist, in wich case you simply choose not to use True Grit and gain the counterattack bonus instead. Remember, true grit is an optional rule.

 

Why would they get an the counterattack bonus with a powerfist?

[Valerian]

So then wouldn't the Grey Hunters not get an extra attack from counter-attack if they were using bolters. Because as you stated it's "as if they had charged" and true-grit says that if they are equiped with a bolter then they get the extra attack in close combat but not the attack bonus for charging.

 

You are correct... GHs with Bolters dont get the extra attack when counter-attacking unless they are armed with a powerfist, in wich case you simply choose not to use True Grit and gain the counterattack bonus instead. Remember, true grit is an optional rule.

 

Why would they get an the counterattack bonus with a powerfist?

 

Because True Grit doesn't work with Power Fists, Thunder Hammers, or Lightning Claws (these weapons do not get an additional attack unless the secondary weapon is another PF, TH, or LC).

 

So, since a model with these special close combat weapons can't get an additional attack from True Grit, they can get an additional attack from launching an Assault, or a Counterattack.

 

Valerian

[Grimtooth]

So then wouldn't the Grey Hunters not get an extra attack from counter-attack if they were using bolters. Because as you stated it's "as if they had charged" and true-grit says that if they are equiped with a bolter then they get the extra attack in close combat but not the attack bonus for charging.

 

You are correct... GHs with Bolters dont get the extra attack when counter-attacking unless they are armed with a powerfist, in wich case you simply choose not to use True Grit and gain the counterattack bonus instead. Remember, true grit is an optional rule.

 

Why would they get an the counterattack bonus with a powerfist?

 

Because True Grit doesn't work with Power Fists, Thunder Hammers, or Lightning Claws (these weapons do not get an additional attack unless the secondary weapon is another PF, TH, or LC).

 

So, since a model with these special close combat weapons can't get an additional attack from True Grit, they can get an additional attack from launching an Assault, or a Counterattack.

 

Valerian

 

Yea, I was just wondering why just single out the powerfist since it applies to all the others as well.

[Grey Mage]

Because powerfist can be taken by Grey Hunter squads who are true gritting bolters... the others are only available on HQs and Wolf Gaurd, so I didnt think it as pertinent.

[Grimtooth]

Because powerfist can be taken by Grey Hunter squads who are true gritting bolters... the others are only available on HQs and Wolf Gaurd, so I didnt think it as pertinent.

 

Gotcha. I was thinking with the inclusion in the conversation of wolf pelts that we were also including SW able to draw from the armory.

[Grey Mage]

Well you caught it, so were on the same page now.