Sisters and Vulkan?

[tedwin183]

I've seen a lot of people hinting at some broken combo between Vulkan He'stan and Sisters allies. Now, I realize you can give Sisters squads a flamer and a heavy flamer and a Veteran Sister Superior can use Divine Guidance plus the re-rolls from Vulkan to potentially demolish anything and everything it shoots. However, I don't see how this is so incredibly broken like some people have hinted at. Personally I feel just a normal, competitive Vulkan list without SoB allies would probably be just as good if not better. Thoughts?

[Captain Malachi]

It's not broken. At all.

 

As you said, a standard Vulkan list is far better in actual battlefield effectiveness.

[tedwin183]

Thats what I was thinking. It seems like you'd need to dump far too many points into SoB allies to make that tactic viable. having a single faith point I don't think would cut it.

[Firedrake28]

I disagree. While I don't think that the Sisters + Vulkan list is some unbeatable, totally broken combo that you're going to see in every third Grand Tournament Space Marine army, I do think that it's a powerful pick. It's just not something that you want to rely on to win.

 

The thing with Space Marine Troops is that, for the most part, they're now inferior to Troops choices of the most competitive armies. Units like Ork Boyz, Dire Avengers and the like are oftentimes seen as better for their cost than a Tactical or Scout Squad is. Because of how expensive they are and since you're getting relatively little bang for your buck compared to the choices from other armies, it makes sense to "waste" as few points as possible on poor but mandatory choices. No, I'm not saying that everyone should take two five man Scout Squads with no upgrades to fulfill their minimum 2 Troop choices requirement from the parent list on the FOC, but it may be wise to replace, say, that Scout Squad in your army that you take as a third Troop choice because it's cheaper than a Tactical Squad with a unit of Battle Sisters in a Rhino with some flamers and enough Faith to get Divine Guidance to work right at least once.

 

The Sisters may cost more, but in all likelihood they'll do significantly better on the battlefield than the Scouts, and are practically designed to take advantage of Vulkan's special abilities.

 

So, in conclusion, I don't think that taking a unit of Sisters will weaken a Vulkan list to the point where another Vulkan list without any Allies will perform better. I think that the army with the Sisters may actually preform better overall.

 

What do you guys think?

[Blood Scorpion]

I wouldn't bother with a standard SoB unit when allying them into a Marine Army, even with Vulkan, as they aren't any better than a Tactical Squad overall and cost about the same when you give them a Transport. Yes they can have two Flamers/Meltas and can use Faith Points to access special abilities, but they are WS3 and T3 so are quite squishy when assaulted. Given that you have to take 2 Troops choices from the Marine Codex that have a poor bang for buck ratio then I really wouldn't add in more Troops choices like SoB squads that also (IMO) have a poor bang for buck ratio.

 

Having said this I would Ally in a unit of Dominions, which are like SoB except that they can take 4 Flamers/Meltas. Now you have a unit that can give you a greater bang for buck and even more so when paired with Vulkan. A unit of 9 Dominions with 4 Flamers, a Sister Superior with Combi-Flamer and a Canoness with Combi-Flamer, all in a Rhino, is yours for just 264pts. They can jump out of their Transport and let off 6 flame templates using Divine Guidence to turn any 6's to wound into AP1 and with Vulkan they get to re-roll to wound! With the Canoness they have 3 Faith Points to play with and can do this again and again (albeit without the Combi-Flamer templates the second and third time). In one turn they could wipe out even a 30 strong mob of Ork Boys or use the Divine Guidence to cook heavily armoured troops! The only significent downside is that Dominions are a Fast Attack choice and cannot capture objectives therefore and the Canoness takes up one of your HQ choices.

 

I can see how Sisters of Battle therefore could be used to enhance a Vulkan list but I don't think that this makes them broken, they are still WS3 and T3!

[tedwin183]

I dunno, I've seen a couple heavy allied lists using roughly 50/50 SM to SoB and it looks like a hard, HARD list to play against. everything is in rhinos, pop out and torch stuff. you'll have enough faith points to last pretty much a whole game's worth of divine guidance. I fully understand they are WS3 and T3...but getting AP1 flamers on 6's as well as power weapons on 6's is pretty awesome. Also, a Canoness just looks like a pretty solid all-around HQ choice. I dunno, I am liking my Vulkan list right now quite a bit (it hasn't lost to anything yet) but this sisters ally thing might be a fun way to alter the list for the sake of variety a bit.

[Blood Scorpion]

As you would have to take 2 Troops choices from C:SM I wouldn't be inclined to take more in the form of SoB squads. I just think that there is better bang for buck to be had in C:SM, even with Vulkan (Sternguard tooled up with Combi weapons, MM/HF Speeders, Ironclads, T'hammer Termis). The only unit's I can think that are worth bringing in (ie that are better than their C:SM counterparts) are the Canoness and Dominions and you can only ally one of each of these max.

[Brother Ariman]

Um, does hestan give master-crafting/twin-linked to the SoB's in the first place? I thought it only gave that to marines who had combat tactics and replaced it in a similar way the Shrike gives them fleet.

[Stargazer]

As Brother Ariman said. Vulkans chapter tactics replaces Combat Tactics of Space Marines, therefore you can't give Sisters of Battle twin-linked Flamers or Meltas. Sorry guys ;)

[Cedric]

You'll want to re-read your Codex SM.

 

The SM loses Combat tactics, then the entire army gains twin linked goodness.

Nowhere does it say "replace tit for tat".

[Captain Malachi]

Guys, this argument has been had about ten thousand times (and no I'm not exaggerating for effect). Nowhere in Vulkans rules does it say it replaces combat tactics. However, this is a thread on tactics, not rules, so for the purposes of this thread can we just assume they do benefit from it?

[Giga]

As Brother Ariman said. Vulkans chapter tactics replaces Combat Tactics of Space Marines, therefore you can't give Sisters of Battle twin-linked Flamers or Meltas. Sorry guys ;)

Nope.

 

Vulkan's Chapter Tactics clearly states that, if your army includes Vulkan He'Stan, then ALL flamers, heavy flamers, meltas, multimeltas in your army count as twinlinked.

 

If allied SoB don't benefit from the rule, then vehicles shouldn't benefit from it either, and Vulkan's rules clearly state there's nothing like "exchanges their combat tactics for vulkan's chapter tactics".

[tedwin183]

I mean, its not even an argument, really. If you simply don't comprehend the English language, then perhaps you could get this confused...but its really quite clear that all units that HAVE "combat tactics" lose it. As an addition, every flamer, hvy flamer, MM, MG in THE ARMY are twin-linked. Pretty crystal clear. Every tournament rules it this way, GW redshirts rule it this way, every gaming club I have been to rules it this way...and if you read it correctly...it reads "this way".

 

Back on track.

 

I'm still curious whether or not this build might be a better/more flexible way to power game in a tournament.

[Aidoneus]

Just to put this debate into more concrete terms (not fishing for comments), this is a 1750pt list I wrote to make use of Vulkan with sisters.

 

Unlike what some people have claimed, simply making use of this combo is not a one-trick pony. It produces a well-rounded army, capable of dealing with just about any opponent. The Troops choices are all solid, and easily capable of holding/taking objectives. And there are TONS of flamers/heavy flamers/meltaguns/multi-meltas/thunder hammers to make use of Vulkan's rule, meaning lots of power available.

 

Really, I see this as an excellent choice in list. It's not powerful to the point of being abusive, but it's definitely a solid list. In point of fact, I can't imagine anything in the Space Marine codex I would rather take than those two sisters units and that cannonness. So given that you're using Vulkan, I simply don't see why you wouldn't take sisters as well.

[tedwin183]

I am liking the idea of that list, however, there are aspects of it I just wouldn't be able to get my hands around. I am just not a drop pod fan, whatsoever, nor am I a dread fan. They're pretty fun for casual gaming, but my local gaming store is fairly cut-throat, so the lists have to be slightly more "competitive". I completely agree with you on the sisters squads, though I would give them all Hvy flamer/flamer combos with a VSS and in a rhino. Divine guidance combined with vulkan's rule (AP1 flamers on 6's is ridic) makes for some nastiness. I completely agree with the Cannonness, though I might give her a blessed weapon for added nastiness and I agree with putting her in the rhino with a 9-lady sisters squad. Personally, I'd drop the dreads in drop pods, and make the land raider a crusader for the termies/vulkan. Oh, and MM in all the tac squads instead of PC, along with PF sergs all in rhinos. I don't know how you use the sisters, but I feel their divine guidance act of faith can be a game-breaking ability.

[rat of vengence]

I mean, its not even an argument, really. If you simply don't comprehend the English language, then perhaps you could get this confused...but its really quite clear that all units that HAVE "combat tactics" lose it. As an addition, every flamer, hvy flamer, MM, MG in THE ARMY are twin-linked. Pretty crystal clear. Every tournament rules it this way, GW redshirts rule it this way, every gaming club I have been to rules it this way...and if you read it correctly...it reads "this way".

People seem to conveniently ignore that it is a CHAPTER tactic, and allies do not belong to the CHAPTER. That word is pretty simple if you comprehend English, yes? But I will agree, in a strict RAW sense, it can be gotten away with. <_<

 

RoV

[eyescrossed]

I mean, its not even an argument, really. If you simply don't comprehend the English language, then perhaps you could get this confused...but its really quite clear that all units that HAVE "combat tactics" lose it. As an addition, every flamer, hvy flamer, MM, MG in THE ARMY are twin-linked. Pretty crystal clear. Every tournament rules it this way, GW redshirts rule it this way, every gaming club I have been to rules it this way...and if you read it correctly...it reads "this way".

People seem to conveniently ignore that it is a CHAPTER tactic, and allies do not belong to the CHAPTER. That word is pretty simple if you comprehend English, yes? But I will agree, in a strict RAW sense, it can be gotten away with. <_<

 

RoV

Don't...EVER....Bring fluff into rules discussions...

[DarKHaZZ13]

Don't...EVER....Bring fluff into rules discussions...

 

Guys, this argument has been had about ten thousand times (and no I'm not exaggerating for effect). Nowhere in Vulkans rules does it say it replaces combat tactics. However, this is a thread on tactics, not rules, so for the purposes of this thread can we just assume they do benefit from it?

 

first fo he's not bringing fullf into it...

chapter tactics is what replaces combat tactics

 

and it DOES say it in vulkans rules!

he has CHAPTER TACTICS pg 93

which replaces COMBAT TACTICS pg 51

which is under the SPACE MARINES special rules..

read your codex please?

 

you say

"this thread is on tactics not rules"

 

fair enough,

but you need to follow the correct rules to employ any tactics

what the point in thinking up tactics for things that don't exist?

 

DH

[Captain Malachi]

You really want to argue this again don't you? Fine.

 

Pg. 51 just tells you what combat tactics does, there is absolutely no mention of chapter tactics anywhere on that page. Anywhere.

 

Pg. 93 says units lose combat tactics, that's pretty clear. Next sentence says that thunder hammers and flamers etc get a bonus, doesn't say anything about what unit has them or whether it replaces combat tactics or not.

 

All other chapter tactics very specifically state that they replace combat tactics, Vulkans does not. Otherwise, as has been said, vehicles wouldn't benefit from it either.

 

I'm not going to argue whether it's right or not, the fact is the rules do not say 'replaces combat tactics'.

 

Thank you for your time and can we just talk tactics now?

[rat of vengence]

Don't...EVER....Bring fluff into rules discussions...

 

What fluff are you going on about mate? I quoted from the Codex, and the description of the special rule. How about we say...

 

Don't...EVER...post without actually reading what you are complaining about...

 

That works for me. :P

 

 

Anyways, as I was saying, the fact that the rule (not fluff, right) is titled Chapter Tactics, and this title is repeated in the text (in blod no less) further down in the same rule (not fluff, right).

 

Allies are not part of the chapter. Therefore they would not benefit from Chapter Tactics.

 

However, and as I said before, in the strict RAW sense this can be gotten away with because it says 'army', not 'marines' or 'chapter' when it talks about the Chapter Tactics effects. So I would not say that it CAN'T be done, but I think it is pushing the envelope right past the sticky bit that you lick. :lol:

 

RoV

[Giga]

first fo he's not bringing fullf into it...

chapter tactics is what replaces combat tactics

Nope.

and it DOES say it in vulkans rules!

he has CHAPTER TACTICS pg 93

which replaces COMBAT TACTICS pg 51

which is under the SPACE MARINES special rules..

read your codex please?

Nope.

 

Here's the rule;

 

If you include He'Stan then all units in your army lose the combat tactics special rule. Instead, all thunder hammers blah blah blah youknowthispart. If more then one character in your army has the Chapter Tactics special rule, you must choose which version will apply.

 

Nowhere does it say that He'stan's chapter tactics replace combat tactics. It says all your units with combat tactics lose combat tactics, and ALL MM, MG, HF, Flamers and thundahammas in your army are upgraded.

 

If chapter tactics replaced combat tactics, then your dreadnoughts and tanks wouldn't get their stuff twinlinked, because, *drumroll* they don't have combat tactics. Only infantry has combat tactics.

 

Therefore, SoB in SM armies with Vulkan gain the twinlinked rule, same as vehicles get it.

[tedwin183]

And I will strengthen the statement made by the poster above me:

 

If you read the FAQ (which makes this argument really quite clear) Vulkan, and any other special character, has combat tactics only because if you have two special characters in one list, it allows you to choose which set of "chapter tactics" you use and the other special character benefits from those same rules everyone else did. If they didn't have it, it would mean that everyone in your army replaces their combat tactics with chapter tactics...except for one model?

 

I look at it this way:

 

You're paying for the ability to give all things "in your army" (not "all things that sacrificed combat tactics".) twin-linked flamers, HF, MM, MG with your ability to auto-fail morale tests.

 

Either way, everywhere you go that makes rule calls, calls it this way.

 

 

 

Back on track:

 

I'm not sure if this is a good idea, still. I mean, they seem like they could be a bit of a one-trick pony. They end up being far easier to kill than normal marines, though they can bring a hvy flamer into the mix.

[Aidoneus]

I disagree. They cost 5pts less per model, which is definitely not inconsiderable. That means you can buy more models, giving the army as a whole more resilience. Also, if you're footslogging, those extra models can be in the same squad, since SoB squads can go up to 20 models.

 

Also, while SoBs are T3, you need to remember that they still are wearing Power Armour, which is huge when you compare them to things like Storm Troopers or Fire Warriors. Also, the Book of Saint Lucius on the VSS means they're always testing on unmodified Ld 9/10, which sort of balances not having ATSKNF. Lastly, Acts of Faith can give them either Fearlessness or an Invulnerable save (still a 3+) for the turn, which can be a huge boon! So honestly, point-for-point, I'd say they're at least, if not more, resilient than Space Marines.

[Resv]

My normal opponent has a great army of Sisters that he pulls out of nowhere at tournaments and other random events. We were talking about how great it would be to give a combined list a try with my Bike army and a "Counts as Vulkan." This last weekend we each gave it a try and were very surprised with the results. The points level at which you play the combination is the really big factor in combining both armies. Aidoneus is completely right about the cost and effectiveness of average sisters. They might be lesser marines but they are very potent still. Acts of faith also take some getting use to, they are a bit like the Orders from the new Guard Codex in their own way.

 

I can't say it was the best army ever but it was fun to play! I can't remember the name of the name of the Sister tank with the D6 S8 AP1(Maybe 2?) missile launcher but that thing really ruined a Daemon Princes day.

[Aidoneus]

Exorcist. And yeah, it's sick.

 

Care to say more about your experience playing the combined-list army? You seem to be not overly-impressed. What settups did you run, and how did things work out?