Sisters and Vulkan?

[eyescrossed]

Don't...EVER....Bring fluff into rules discussions...

 

What fluff are you going on about mate? I quoted from the Codex, and the description of the special rule. How about we say...

 

Don't...EVER...post without actually reading what you are complaining about...

 

That works for me. :D

The fact that because it's a Chapter Tactic, allies don't get it because they don't belong to the Chapter. It's just a name.

[rat of vengence]

Ah. So I guess that the title of the RULE is a part of the RULE we can ignore, and conveniently label as 'fluff', because we can say it is just a name? I tend to think the name is actually descriptive of the rule. Oh, and not just fluff, right.

 

When we start breaking down actual rules into bits we like and bits we don't like (just 'rule fluff' and 'actual rule') it gets very messy.

 

Is it in the codex? Yes.

Is it a bit of narrative or creative writing? No.

Is it part of the rule? Yes (imo).

 

RoV

[eyescrossed]

That's not what I mean. What I mean is that it clearly states that all Flamers, Heavy flamers, etc. in the ARMY, not just the weapons of the Space Marines, all of the weapons in the ARMY, get the bonus.

[rat of vengence]

Yes? I referred to that bit myself mate. It's not like I was leaving bits out of the rule to reinforce my own opinion...

 

So what you meant was

That's not what I mean. What I mean is that it clearly states that all Flamers, Heavy flamers, etc. in the ARMY, not just the weapons of the Space Marines, all of the weapons in the ARMY, get the bonus.

 

when in fact you actually said

The fact that because it's a Chapter Tactic, allies don't get it because they don't belong to the Chapter. It's just a name.

 

I see now... :P

 

 

RoV

[eyescrossed]

Yes? I referred to that bit myself mate. It's not like I was leaving bits out of the rule to reinforce my own opinion...

 

So what you meant was

That's not what I mean. What I mean is that it clearly states that all Flamers, Heavy flamers, etc. in the ARMY, not just the weapons of the Space Marines, all of the weapons in the ARMY, get the bonus.

 

when in fact you actually said

The fact that because it's a Chapter Tactic, allies don't get it because they don't belong to the Chapter. It's just a name.

 

I see now... :P

 

 

RoV

Sorry for the confusion, I thought you were saying the bolded bit.

[Aidoneus]

Can we please stop arguing about the legality of this? That's a matter for the Official Rules forum. And honestly, it's been argued to death already, we all know all the arguments, we all have our own opinions, and no one is going to change their opinion at this point. So seriously, just drop it.

 

For the purposes of this thread, can't we just ASSUME it's legal, and move on to the question of whether it's effective, and how best to implement it?

 

If you honestly can't bring yourself to discuss something that you believe is illegal, and you honestly think this qualifies, then THIS is not the thread for you! Simply go ask about it in the Official Rules section or rant about it in Amicus. But please stop weighing down this discussion with off-topic bickering. Please.

[Resv]

I really enjoyed the army actually, but the balance was hard to strike. I played about 6 games total with the combined list and lost half. The problem was having the right combination of Marines and Sisters as well as a viable points amount. The first number of games I lost because we just didn't have the balance down. We hit a really stride at 1750 and 1850 that was the best overall mix. It really didn't work as a even split, the best success was using specific units from each codex.

 

We tried doing armies both ways with having Space Marines as the base and then with Sisters as the base. The best setup we found was taking mostly Sisters and then Vulkan, Terminators, and a Land Raider. The basic sister isn't super strong but their price can't be beat for power armor and all. Two Exorcists and a Land Raider were the main attraction and did quite a bit of damage. The best unit though was the Seraphim by far with their Hit and Run rules they make one of the best possible anti-troop units I have encountered lately and really made a mess out of the Guard and Tau players I faced.

 

What I would like to see is the Sisters team up with the new Guard Codex lists. Seraphim and power armored sisters tossed in with REALLY cheap troops seems like a winning combination.

[Aidoneus]

How'd you get Vulkan into a Sisters army? Not to mention assault termies or a SM land raider? Were you following the standard allies rules?

[tedwin183]

See, this is what I was thinking as well. It seems like it'd probably be a better idea to weigh more heavily on the sisters than on marines. You can just get so many more of them. Plus, more VSS means more faith points, means you don't have to save faith points as much and can actually use them on things besides divine guidance. Either way, it looks like Vulkan with a decked out Cannoness is a cool and effective way to go. Can anyone weigh in on the effectiveness of a Cannoness? On paper, she looks like a beast.

[Blood Scorpion]

You simply CANNOT ally in Space Marines into a Witchunters army that has any Sisters of Battle in it, so starting with a base from Codex:Witchunters will not work. Nor can you take Exorcists into a Space Marine army as your Heavy Support ally limit is 0.

 

I completely agree that SoB Squads are a very good unit, and make up for their vulnerability by having a few tricks up their sleeves, so are very comparable to a Tactical Squad in terms of point for point effectiveness, if not a little better. They are certainly better point for point than many other Troops choices, but are certainly not the best out there.

 

My reservation though of their effectiveness in a Marine army is that you have to take 2 Troops choices from Codex:Space Marines, and these will usually be two Tacticals in a Vulkan list. Taking SoB Squads is just adding more very good units to a list that you could add great units to instead, be it from Codex:Space Marines, Codex:Witchunters or even Codex:Deamonhunters.

 

As I said above a Squad of Dominions is probably the best unit from Codex:Witchunters to take in a Vulkan List along with a Canoness for the extra Faith Points. Other than that I would honestly be more fearful of facing a good number of units from Codex:Space Marines than a SoB Squad. If you want a third Scoring Unit I'd also prefer to ally in some Grey Knights over a SoB Squad!

 

If you could just take your Troops as SoB and didn't have to bother about the mandatory Marine choices I would be all for SoB Squads, but you can't, so at a normal sized game I say a list with SoB Squads and Vulkan is very good, but not as dangerous as one with Speeders, Sternguard, Dreads, T'hammer Termies etc instead who can pack in a lot more Twin-Linked Melta/Flamer/T'hammers for the same points.

[Resv]

Standard rules are pretty well laid out in the Codex of what can and can't be added. The Canoness is pretty mean for her price but she needs upgrades like nothing else. Which isn't really a problem looking at all the cool stuff available to characters. Her elite retinue is also totally worth while since they always hit on 3+ in CC unless against an Independent Character or MCs. All in all I can't say this was the best list ever, but it was fun! The Twin-Linking did help but unless you really direct your list so that you can make the best of it you might save your points.

[Blood Scorpion]

Standard rules are pretty well laid out in the Codex of what can and can't be added.

So how on earth did you play a list with mostly Sisters, Vulkan, Terminators and a Land Raider? If you have any Adeptas Soroitas you cannot induct Space Marines of any kind, including Vulkan, Terminators and Land Raiders!

[Cedric]

Where do you find the rule that adding SoB allies excludes any SM, Blood Scorpion?

[Aidoneus]

Where do you find the rule that adding SoB allies excludes any SM, Blood Scorpion?

It's the other way around. Adding allied Space Marines to a Witch Hunters list means you can't use Sisters.

 

It's perfectly legal to start with a Space Marine list and ally-in Sisters, but in that case you're limited in terms of how many squads you can take as allies, you need the basic 1HQ and 2T from Space Marines, and you can't take any HS allies (meaning no exorcists).

 

The point is, to use Vulkan with sisters, you need to start with a Space Marine list, and then take sisters as allies. As noted, this limits how many sisters you can field.

 

However, unlike Blood Scorpion, I'd rather have sisters than other Spacie units. I like having at least 4 Scoring units at 1750+pts, not counting Combat Squads (which are often too weak to hold objectives alone). Also, a sisters squad can put out MASSIVE ammounts of firepower.

 

Consider the following layout:

 

Veteran Sister Superior: Brazier of Holy Fire (combi-flamer, except it's a CCW instead of Bolter), Bolt Pistol

9 Sisters: Flamer, Heavy Flamer

Repressor: Extra Armour

 

For 207pts, you get a combi-flamer, flamer, and heavy flamer, along with 7 bolters, all of which can easily become Rending by using a Faith Point. Furthermore, their transport (included in that cost) carries another heavy flamer as well as a storm bolter. The squad can become Fearless, get invulnerable saves, etc. It's a solid Scoring unit, that can kill virtually any infantry squad out there in one round of shooting.

[Blood Scorpion]

It is for when you want to induct Space Marines into a Witchunters Army. It says on p.25 and repeats on p.26 of Codex:Witchunters "Allied Space Marines may not be used if any Adepta Soroitas units are present in the Witchunters force". Therefore you cannot have Sisters (Heroine, Celetians, SoB Sqauds, Seraphim, Dominions, Retributers) and Space Marines when Witchunters is the 'parent' list.

 

You can, however, ally Sisters into a Space Marine 'parent' list, but only up to the limits stated, and you need to take 2 Troops choices of Marines which is why I don't believe that SoB Squads add as much as other units do to a Vulkan list.

[Blood Scorpion]

However, unlike Blood Scorpion, I'd rather have sisters than other Spacie units. I like having at least 4 Scoring units at 1750+pts, not counting Combat Squads (which are often too weak to hold objectives alone). Also, a sisters squad can put out MASSIVE ammounts of firepower.

 

Consider the following layout:

 

Veteran Sister Superior: Brazier of Holy Fire (combi-flamer, except it's a CCW instead of Bolter), Bolt Pistol

9 Sisters: Flamer, Heavy Flamer

Repressor: Extra Armour

 

For 207pts, you get a combi-flamer, flamer, and heavy flamer, along with 7 bolters, all of which can easily become Rending by using a Faith Point. Furthermore, their transport (included in that cost) carries another heavy flamer as well as a storm bolter. The squad can become Fearless, get invulnerable saves, etc. It's a solid Scoring unit, that can kill virtually any infantry squad out there in one round of shooting.

I agree that Sisters are very good and with a timely Faith Point can make up for their vulnerability by making their Bolters/Flamers effectively Rending (amongst other tricks). They are below average in combat though and will be out done by all but basic infantry in this department and given that they are only effective at close range they can often find themselves in a fist fight. Their extra hitting power is at the expense of their flexibility and survivability.

 

As I said they are probably point for point slightly superior to a Tactical Squad, however, I don't believe that at 1500pts bringing them in along side two Tacticals are points well spent when you can take so many more Flamers and Meltas with other units for fewer points, and better, more flexible and survivable Scoring Units in larger games.

 

I am happy to be convinced otherwise though, has anyone designed a 1750/1850pts list where Sisters are a main part of a Marine list?

[Aidoneus]

I am happy to be convinced otherwise though, has anyone designed a 1750/1850pts list where Sisters are a main part of a Marine list?

Take a look! I'm quite pleased with it, on paper at least. I need to proxy it a couple times before investing money in some of the stuff I don't own. I'd appreciate comments. :lol:

[Resv]

The point is, to use Vulkan with sisters, you need to start with a Space Marine list, and then take sisters as allies. As noted, this limits how many sisters you can field.

 

The quote above is how I added Sisters to Vulkan. The general idea is to fulfill the standard obligations of the FOC. When I talk about base I'm talking about how the list comes together. Do you take loads of sisters as troops and cheap out with Scouts (worked quite well for me) or roll with light involvement and focus on just space marines.

 

They are below average in combat though and will be out done by all but basic infantry in this department and given that they are only effective at close range they can often find themselves in a fist fight. Their extra hitting power is at the expense of their flexibility and survivability.

 

This statement is just a little odd to me. Basic infantry of most other armies are just about on par with Sisters. Cult Marines don't count because they aren't basic troops, they cost far more. Even the various Eldar Aspects are quite pricey. The real boon to Sisters is their cost per unit really do reflect their stats. They are very flexible units that can fulfill a variety of roles and with their 3+ save, and very easy 3+ invulnerable save, they can stick around for quite a while.

[Aidoneus]

Okay, but you can still only take 2 SoB units (the Troops that is), and only 1 HQ, E, and FA respectively. Which limits your ability to max out on sisters squads like you could with a base SoB army.

 

Also, you definitely can't get any HS, which means no Exorcists. So I'm still not understanding how that was a legal list.

[Resv]

It probably wasn't! It is more or less a cool unit that we wanted to try out. All my games were with friendly players more or less and we only used it in one game.