DIY Discussion: Giving and Receiving Feedback

[Sigismund Himself]

Giving Feedback to Others' DIY Chapters

Be Nice!
This should be the number one rule. When giving feedback on DIY chapters, it is all too easy to come off as superior to the original poster. To avoid this, you do have to make an effort with your expression of your critique. If your post comes across as negative and self important to the chapter owner, the less likely it is that they will listen to your feedback. It also makes the process of refining a DIY chapter feel as though it is just defending yourself against others' attacks. We know that you're trying to help and that you've taken your own time to post a critique, but being friendly makes it easier to get your point across and keeps the process of making a DIY chapter easier for everyone.

Don't Belabor a Point
If you can't get your point across to the owner of the chapter in five posts, another five isn't likely to resolve it. Let it lie or try to find someone else to attempt to explain what you mean or what is wrong with the particular aspect of the chapter's IA. Don't continue to butt heads, try to move onto another area that needs help.

Explain in Detail
When you give a critique, simply don't say that "This bit is wrong". Explain why it is wrong and provide links to sources (such as the Guide to DIYing or an article from the Librarium). If you do this, the DIY chapter owner has the opportunity to learn from their mistakes and get a deeper understanding of the 40k universe more than from you simply posting "No, this is wrong". Just think that if you explain it properly now, it will reduce the amount of critiquing you have to do in the future ^_^

Try to Give Alternatives
As with the previous example, it's better not to just say "That's wrong". Try to give an example of what does work. This is one of the most hard things to do, especially if you aren't particularly into what the chapter's themes are. Although it is not our job to write the chapter for the creator, just simply suggesting small ideas that they could pursue will help people greatly.

Avoid Critique Pile-ins
If someone's already critiqued the chapter in detail, you should avoid treading over the same ground that they have already covered (unless they are wrong in their critiques). A simple "I agree with the above poster, but with there's also this..." works. If a couple of people are already engaged in discussing a point, you should be careful in how you enter the discussion. If done wrongly, it often comes across as ganging up on a DIY chapter owner.

Don't Sidetrack Too Much
If you get into an argument over a point of canon veracity, you should take it to another thread. This doubly applies if the debate is not between you and the original poster. Although it is for their benefit, it generally clutters the thread up too much and detracts from the rest of the discussion about the chapter.

Great Bulls Were Once Grasshoppers Themselves

All of us start off as first time posters and DIY chapter creators. For some of us, we are lucky enough not to have our first DIY chapter attempt posted on the board. Unfortunately, I'm not such a person :D My first ever DIY chapter can be seen here. The Gryphon Guard were a beautiful chapter, who had every cliche bar "Lost in the Warp". Ferrata took it upon himself to explain the background errors and mistakes in the IA to this newcomer to the background side of the hobby and to the board. I developed my ideas a couple of more times, before letting the IA rest. Ferrata's advice was friendly and helpful. It drew me into the creation of DIY chapters, an addiction which I still have today. This really is a prime example of the way to deal with a newcomer to the Liber subforum.

Unfortunately, the number of responses which are not even as half as good as Ferrata's have really begun to rise lately. I don't want to point fingers at anyone or accuse people. I just want to call upon the members of the Liber, especially the veterans, to actively try to improve the way in which we respond to newcomers to our subforum. Sure, you're old and jaded now. You've seen the same concepts surface again and again. Spartan marines, joke chapters and loyalist renegade fads have all come and gone across the years. It is hard not to get a little tired of seeing the same ideas. However, we need to think back to when we were first starting out and how we would have been like treated back then. We need to remember when we didn't know half of the background about Space Marines that GW has printed and when we didn't see cliches but cool plot hooks. With this in mind, that's how we should respond to first time DIY chapter makers.

Responding to and Preparing for Feedback on Your DIY Chapter

Establish Your Objective
What do you intend to do with this chapter? Are you trying to make the chapter fit fully into the background of 40k or with a bit of leeway canon-wise? Is your chapter going to be a parody chapter? Are you going to do female space marines, come what may? It's a very good idea to establish this as early as possible. If you do this, you can avoid a lot of unnecessary discussion and debate in your thread that may not help you develop your ideas. So if you're just making this chapter to your own ideas, without intending it to match the background greatly, just say so in your original post or as soon as possible in a reply.

Don't Ignore Critiques
At least acknowledge that people have made the effort to critique your work, even if you don't intend to take their advice. They've taken the time to try and help you develop your ideas. If you ignore the critiques that have been made, you're less likely to attract more people who are willing to look over your work and help you. All you need to do is post a few words to thank them for their time and thoughts.

I Know What I Mean...
When you respond to feedback on your DIY chapter, you should try to explain the intent and ideas behind what you have written to the person critiquing your work. It is a lot easier to help you if the person replying to your IA understands what you are trying to accomplish with the particular bit that has been highlighted. If they don't understand a particular section of your IA, you should have a closer look at it. Just because you understand it doesn't mean that everyone else can understand it.

A Slow Day in Hell
Liber is slow; it always has been and always will be. It is a strange phenomenon which occurs given the statistics, but everyone will agree that Liber generally seems like a slow board. Don’t get annoyed or over eager if your thread doesn’t receive a reply in the first hour, or the first fifty views. Some people like to give feedback on fresh ideas where they feel their opinions might bear fruit, others love to get into full blown chapters and given grammatical feedback, we are all different. If your thread drops of the front page without a reply, then either your need to do some more work yourself and repost, or maybe consider PMing one of the Mods and ask them really nicely, we don’t want anyone not to get the attention they deserve.

Everyone Hates Me
Critique is generally negative; we will rarely say we think something is good. Generally, if we don't post a note on something, we think it's at least alright, if not good. We are a fan of the stick in this forum because it is what works. It is presumed that any chapter posted in Liber wants to fit the collective universe created by GW, so we'll all attempt to push background in that direction. There is little point going “cool”, that is what PC&A is for. Don’t be disheartened if all you are getting is “Change this bit” “This is wrong”, it is not that you are useless and can’t do anything right, it is we are giving critique and not a slap on the back. Unfortunately, text is always a cold medium.

What the Liber
It is your duty to come up with the original ideas for your chapter, don't expect the members of the Liber to come up with them. What you can expect from them is to steer you away from the bad ideas, and, if they can, to offer better alternatives for said bad ideas. Everyone likes a good IA, it is up to you to do the rough part, it is up to us to point out what's wrong. To quote a very wise Liberite, you should think of the Liber as quality control, not the assembly line.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

I think this type of guide has been too long absent from Liber. Sure we have guides to help the budding DIY writer, but no real guidelines for posting clear and useful critiques.

 

I think though that the main point that needs to be pushed across hard is the combination of personal opinion and perception.

 

This is a double edged sword for both sides of the fence for Liber but definetly moreso for the DIY writer, however I have seen rather more recent cases of it on the other. I'm talking about the I know what I mean, why don't you?' syndrome. It's all too common for the DIY writer to create a passage in their article which comes across badly or is misconstrued by anyone who reads it simply because the writer hasn't taken the time to explain what he is talking about. The fact is that you need to approach a DIY with the assumption that your audience only knows the wider history of the Astartes, not your chapter or how your thought process builds their history.

 

Usually this isn't so much of a problem for those giving critique but recently I have seen a few cases. Usually it boils down to someone using a single line to point out a problem in the IA, or to say something that is too obscure for the articles author to comprehend what the crit giver is trying to get across. This usually happens when someone makes a statement but doesen't qualify that statement clearly enough.

 

Remember, never ever assume that just because you know what your talking about that anyone else will. Always explain yourself and be clear to exactly what your trying to say, rather than expecting someone to make the same leap of logic that you automatically will when regarding your own writing.

[Apothete]

First off, well done on the overall article. I had to sit and think for a minute before I could come up with any criticism or commentary.

 

This should be the number one rule. When giving feedback on DIY chapters, it is all too easy to come off as superior to the original poster. To avoid this, you do have to make an effort with your expression of your critique. If your post comes across as negative and self important to the chapter owner, the less likely it is that they will listen to your feedback. It also makes the process of refining a DIY chapter feel as though it is just defending yourself against others' attacks. We know that you're trying to help and that you've taken your own time to post a critique, but being friendly makes it easier to get your point across and keeps the process of making a DIY chapter easier for everyone.

 

I think a useful addition to this section might be to add something about putting oneself in the position of the person receiving the criticism. If the things that you're saying aren't something that you would want to hear, it'd be a good idea to spend a little longer and figure out if that's because they're painful truths or because they're worded poorly. If the former, find either a gentler or funnier way to get the point across. If the latter, either take a break and do it later or ask someone else to make the point for you so that it doesn't come across like getting pistol whipped with a bolter.

 

When you give a critique, simply don't say that "This bit is wrong". Explain why it is wrong and provide links to sources (such as the Guide to DIYing or an article from the Librarium). If you do this, the DIY chapter owner has the opportunity to learn from their mistakes and get a deeper understanding of the 40k universe more than from you simply posting "No, this is wrong". Just think that if you explain it properly now, it will reduce the amount of critiquing you have to do in the future

 

This.

 

In all honesty, while I'm all for polite discourse and trying to be nice to one another, the most important thing you can do for a writer who's struggling with some aspect of their creation is to provide them the information to fix something that's incorrect. If they then choose to ignore it or go their own way, at least they can justify their position from then on by referencing the material in question and thus have a sounder position to stand on. Whether minutiae like star types or big things like the role of the Adeptus Custodes, everyone has room to learn more and nobody knows everything.

 

As with the previous example, it's better not to just say "That's wrong". Try to give an example of what does work. This is one of the most hard things to do, especially if you aren't particularly into what the chapter's themes are.

 

Alternatives are nice, but I'm sometimes loathe to give them without being directly asked to. The Liber is meant to help us improve our writing and create something of our own, which to me implies that the bulk of the work should come from the author. Now, someone asking for suggestions plainly wants the help, but should we necessarily assume that we know better than the original creator? It's not that thorny an issue when it comes to things like grammar or spelling, but toying too much with people's themes seems like it could even border on the direspectful.

 

Ferrata took it upon himself to explain the background errors and mistakes in the IA to this newcomer to the background side of the hobby and to the board. I developed my ideas a couple of more times, before letting the IA rest. Ferrata's advice was friendly and helpful. It drew me into the creation of DIY chapters, an addiction which I still have today. This really is a prime example of the way to deal with a newcomer to the Liber subforum.

 

Another thing to keep in mind, as I was reminded by Telveryon, is that not everyone on this English-speaking message board has it as their primary language. Some of the errors we run into are going to be things that stem from idiomatic elements of the differences between tongues, simple misunderstandings, and potentially even translation issues in the various books that we all have.

 

On top of that, this is a hobby that attracts people of all ages and the odds are pretty good that someone you end up critiquing is going to be a thirteen year old (or younger!) who suffers from that same disease that many of us had at that age. Yes, Mary Sues can be painful to read, but it's understandable when you remember your own childhood or adolescence. It's also doubly important to try and humor the kids if you think about the health of our hobby in terms of longevity, since people are going to need to keep joining up and spending money if we're all going to keep getting our toys.

 

Yes, toys.

 

At the end of the day, we're all making up stories about our little plastic men. Try to have some fun with it, too. Sometimes it's easy to forget and get swept up in the flamestorm of internet arguments.

[Ferrata]

Full feedback (which I had already promised but forgot about) will come later, but you might want to use this link for the G. Guard as I actually reply in that thread :o

[Brother Keir]

I can understand why some do not like to give or receive alternative ideas, however I have received at least one that I thought was very good and used it (nod to Telveryon).

 

In general, I really like the message in this post. I tend to keep in mind the wide range of maturity levels, that do not always correspond with age, that are to be found on this or any forum. Sometimes, I have to keep my own maturity in check. Both the giver and the receiver of this criticism need to keep this in mind. I have on occasion lost my mind over what I thought was a brief, thoughtless attack, which was intended to point out what could be read by some as a grammatical misdirection of sorts. Something as simple as: "The way you say this, makes me thing this" would have done wonders to helping me fix the perceived problem earlier. While I, clearly, do not always agree with the critiques, I will almost always try to reword a sentence that has confused even one person. In this way, I try to accept things that I consider "bad" criticism as actually helpful.

 

And again, as I would recommend to all who receive criticism, I thank you all for you opinions (and especially references), and I truly appreciate the time you have put into reading my work.

 

Thank you,

 

Brother Keir

[The 13th Goat]

I would fully endorse this guideline being made a sticky at the top along with the DiY guide. I for one am guilty for some of the points posted above, and will work on them, but a guideline for crit would be great.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Kudos to you for writing this Sigismund, it seems more or less watertight to me. :o

 

The only thing I could possibly think of that could be added is for the "Responding to and preparing for feedback" section would be a little note that no news is good news. I've seen quite a few DIYers posting to say "No-one's commented, does that mean it's good or bad?". It's good - we don't post because we can't find anything to critique. :mellow:

 

When you give a critique, simply don't say that "This bit is wrong". Explain why it is wrong and provide links to sources (such as the Guide to DIYing or an article from the Librarium). If you do this, the DIY chapter owner has the opportunity to learn from their mistakes and get a deeper understanding of the 40k universe more than from you simply posting "No, this is wrong". Just think that if you explain it properly now, it will reduce the amount of critiquing you have to do in the future

 

Whilst this is true of single ideas, a few combinations of ideas do hit brick walls. For example, if someone wants to do a Chapter that is composed of female Space Marines and is entirely at home with all existing fluff. On their own, both options are entirely possible, but like it or not, GW does not endorse female Marines. You are going to have to choose one or the other. You can still go on to successfully do a Chapter of female Marines (as Doctor Thunder has proved), just as you can still go on to do a Chapter that could be implanted wholesale into GW fluff with no changes at all. It's just the combination that causes problems, and the only real way round that is to pick one of the elements and leave the other one behind.

[theredcorsair]

Vote 1 for sticky.

 

EDIT: One thing I would like to say is that alot of the time there is a bad ratio of posts to views, or just no comments at all.

[Ferrata]

Some additional points I quickly thought of;

 

A Slow Day in Hell Today

Liber is slow; it always has been and always will be. It is a strange phenomenon which occurs given the statistics, but everyone will agree that Liber seems like a slow board. Don’t get annoyed or over eager if your thread doesn’t receive a reply in the first hour, or the first fifty views. Some people like to give feedback on fresh ideas were they feel their opinions might bear fruit, others love to get into full blown chapters and given grammatical feedback, we are all different. If your thread drops of the front page without a reply, then either your need to do some more work yourself and repost, or maybe consider PM one of the Mods and ask them really nicely, we don’t want anyone not to get the attention they deserve.

Everyone Hates Me

Critique is generally negative; we will rarely say we think something is good. We are a fan of the stick in this forum because it is what works. It is presumed that any chapter posted in Liber wants to fit the collective universe created by GW, so well all attempt to push background in that direction. There is little point going “cool”, that is what PC&A is for. Don’t be disheartened if all you are getting is “Change this bit” “This is wrong”, it is not that you are useless and can’t do anything right it is we are giving critique and not a slap on the back, and unfortunately text is always a cold medium.

[Malegaunt]

Grand Master Tyrak said:

The only thing I could possibly think of that could be added is for the "Responding to and preparing for feedback" section would be a little note that no news is good news. I've seen quite a few DIYers posting to say "No-one's commented, does that mean it's good or bad?". It's good - we don't post because we can't find anything to critique

Theredcorsair said:

One thing I would like to say is that alot of the time there is a bad ratio of posts to views, or just no comments at all.

Ferrata said:

Liber is slow; it always has been and always will be. It is a strange phenomenon which occurs given the statistics, but everyone will agree that Liber seems like a slow board. Don’t get annoyed or over eager if your thread doesn’t receive a reply in the first hour, or the first fifty views.

Perhaps the Liber might consider adopting an acronym that people could quickly and easily Fast Reply to acknowledge that they read the entry and they felt it was more or less good? Maybe “LGTM” for “Looks Good To Me”. Even just “S/O” for “Seems Okay”? Seems like that might speed up the board and give posters the feedback they crave. Even a neutral comment to acknowledge it was read would be better than silence, I think.

 

Just a thought.

[Octavulg]

The only thing I could possibly think of that could be added is for the "Responding to and preparing for feedback" section would be a little note that no news is good news. I've seen quite a few DIYers posting to say "No-one's commented, does that mean it's good or bad?". It's good - we don't post because we can't find anything to critique. smile.gif

 

Personally, I sometimes don't post because the idea is just that bad, or because it's just that undeveloped. Not always, but often. People who give three lines of thinking and ask for others to fill in the rest seldom finish their chapters, and I have better things to do with my time.

[Ferrata]

Perhaps the Liber might consider adopting an acronym that people could quickly and easily Fast Reply to acknowledge that they read the entry and they felt it was more or less good? Maybe “LGTM” for “Looks Good To Me”. Even just “S/O” for “Seems Okay”? Seems like that might speed up the board and give posters the feedback they crave. Even a neutral comment to acknowledge it was read would be better than silence, I think.

That is bordering on PC&A land. We in Liber have a history of given proper feedback, we don't strole the ego of the author. We don't give thumbs ups unless it is mind blowingly awesome.

[The 13th Goat]

And thats the way it should be!

 

I think Ferretas posted points should be included. I was gonna say something about recieving, but didn't know how to word it.

 

P.S What Is PC&A?

[Ferrata]

Painting, Converting and Artwork, which is now a group of forums were it was once a single forum.

[Marshal Rohr]

That quality control quote should be somewhere in the article. Its short and gets the point across.

[Hubernator]

Agreed with everyone else, this has been long needed. Well done Sig for taking the time to write it up too ;)

 

I also agree with the extras Ferrata has suggested. This one:

A Slow Day in Hell Today

Liber is slow; it always has been and always will be. It is a strange phenomenon which occurs given the statistics, but everyone will agree that Liber seems like a slow board. Don’t get annoyed or over eager if your thread doesn’t receive a reply in the first hour, or the first fifty views. Some people like to give feedback on fresh ideas were they feel their opinions might bear fruit, others love to get into full blown chapters and given grammatical feedback, we are all different. If your thread drops of the front page without a reply, then either your need to do some more work yourself and repost, or maybe consider PM one of the Mods and ask them really nicely, we don’t want anyone not to get the attention they deserve.

, is one I think applies everywhere, but mainly in the Liber. This is a personal urk of mine - watching newer posters going ape or even posting replies for themselves just to attract attention. But yes, this one applies a lot.

 

*is guilty of such a thing with the Phantoms :( *

[Race Bannon]

I Know What I Mean...

When you respond to feedback on your DIY chapter, you should try to explain the intent and ideas behind what you have written to the person critiquing your work. It is a lot easier to help you if the person replying to your IA understands what you are trying to accomplish with the particular bit that has been highlighted. If they don't understand a particular section of your IA, you should have a closer look at it. Just because you understand it doesn't mean that everyone else can understand it.

 

This is huge. I may be belaboring the point but I desire to add my words. So many times have people responded with critique, only to have the OP explain what was originally posted. Lately it seems, the explination is more of a defense as well as to clarify. I have learned, when it comes to writing an IA on the B+C, to "just say it". Stop defending yourself, if you need to explain something then maybe the explination should be in the IA? At the same time I understand that SOME reasons we write stuff in is based on real-world experiences or decisions. For example, deviance from Codex Chapter structure can be the biggest challenge to explain and this is one that receives a lot of grief from both sides of the article.

 

Anyways, I've typed my piece/gripe on the matter. This article was a long time coming and I'm glad to see it here :(

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

I would fully endorse this guideline being made a sticky at the top along with the DiY guide. I for one am guilty for some of the points posted above, and will work on them, but a guideline for crit would be great.

 

/Signed and fully endorsed. I think we're all a little guilty of being 'that guy' at times on Liber, but this is the sort of thing that would at least help make people take a bit of a step back when reviewing their own critiques.

[Ecritter]

Okay, as the wise old man around here I'd like to add something to this. I know it may not be in our nature, but it helps to take the hard crit when there's some sugar on it. In other words tell them what you like as well as what you don't like about their chapter. It makes it so much easier to take sometimes.

 

I do think this is a great idea.

[Telveryon]

That quality control quote should be somewhere in the article. Its short and gets the point across.

You mean this one:

I'll be as blunt as I can on this statement. It is not his or our job to work on your chapter, that's your job. The Liber is quality control, not the assembly line.

I can't believe people actually like that... I was actually trying to be harsh. I should give a nod to Grey Hunter Ydalir for actually sigging it, you do me great honor!

 

But why should it be quoted? This guide is here specifically to make such remarks a rarity.

 

Anyway, as half the reason for this guide's existence I also vote for it's sticky-ing and I'll try my best to follow it's advice. I know I'm quite blunt and I should tone it down a bit. I'm a self proclaimed fluff nut (despite my earlier sins with the Golden Defenders) but that's shouldn't mean that I can't be civil.

[Ferrata]

I'll be as blunt as I can on this statement. It is not his or our job to work on your chapter, that's your job. The Liber is quality control, not the assembly line.

I agree with the essence of this statement, but not what it comes across as. Liber is here for everyone, for those who can knock out a good IA in under a week and the only bad points are a few mistakes in spelling which slipped in to those who don't know their Blood Angels from their Dark Angels. Sometimes you need to offer more advice, even if it is just "Read other chapters and read the Guide". I know the statement is meant to mean we don't build your chapter for you, but it can come across as more about you can only come here when you have a full IA.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

But why should it be quoted? This guide is here specifically to make such remarks a rarity.

 

That's exactly why it should go in - to remove any chance of the need to make that statement.

[Telveryon]

I agree with the essence of this statement, but not what it comes across as. Liber is here for everyone, for those who can knock out a good IA in under a week and the only bad points are a few mistakes in spelling which slipped in to those who don't know their Blood Angels from their Dark Angels. Sometimes you need to offer more advice, even if it is just "Read other chapters and read the Guide". I know the statement is meant to mean we don't build your chapter for you, but it can come across as more about you can only come here when you have a full IA.

 

Indeed, I was actually trying to be obnoxious, the quote itself has not place in the guide but something that goes along those lines in the "Responding to and Preparing for Feedback on Your DIY Chapter" might.

 

Something like:

 

What the Liber is for

It is your duty to come up with the original ideas for your chapter, don't expect the members of the Liber to come up with them. What you can expect from them is to steer you away from the bad ideas, and, if they can, to offer better alternatives for said bad ideas. Everyone likes a good IA, it is up to you to do the rough part, it is up to us to polish it.

 

It probably could be put in much better words, but I think it gets the message across with less hostility.

[Octavulg]

That's exactly why it should go in - to remove any chance of the need to make that statement.

 

Optimist.

[Tyrannicide]

While I think this could be helpful and useful to some, the posters that leave three lines about their Chapter and ask for additional help will not read any of this. :ph34r: