DIY Discussion: Giving and Receiving Feedback

[Cedric]

While I think this could be helpful and useful to some, the posters that leave three lines about their Chapter and ask for additional help will not read any of this. :lol:

 

These lazy posters can always be referred here by their fellow forum brethren.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

That's exactly why it should go in - to remove any chance of the need to make that statement.

Optimist.

 

Well, we can hope. :lol:

[Ecritter]

All this brings up, or brings up again, the same old thing .... Stay on topic. And if you're not in the mood to help others .... don't post.

[Tyrannicide]

While I think this could be helpful and useful to some, the posters that leave three lines about their Chapter and ask for additional help will not read any of this. :confused:

 

These lazy posters can always be referred here by their fellow forum brethren.

Very true, but if they are so lazy that they expect everything to be handed to them by other members, then they're not going to read it even after the link! :D

 

My take on it, anyways.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Optimism is for the best.

 

You can be cynical and see the faults with even having such guidelines for what can be, by and large, lazy or ignorant posters. However, if these guides and guidelines even manage to help a few out of the fore-mentioned group, of which can comprise of newbies, old-hands now returned and even people who only think they know what they are on about.

 

Regardless of what the actual percentage is, getting the point across to a few people will be great for the board as a whole, and the wisdom absorbed by those people can in time be transferred again onto other people over and over. The fact of people clicking on the stickey itself is not the issue, it's how many people refer new posters to it, who admitedly do not really ever read the guides before posting, as we'd like.

 

I say, better to have than not.

 

Very true, but if they are so lazy that they expect everything to be handed to them by other members, then they're not going to read it even after the link!

 

If they are that lazy then most likely their IA's will never be finished and the threads will be lost in the Libers archives as so many threads before them. The loss is theirs, not ours. The author of the DIY IA is the one who is to benefit from posting here and while we may gain some vicarious pleasure from helping people develop their chapters, the object is to benefit them not you.

 

Though I should add that I don't think anyone was implying that it was in any way centered around the critique givers, but it was an uncomfortable pink elephant for me in the forum that sometimes comes across as, perhaps unconciously, implied in tone, if not the context of the feedback itself.

 

I should give a nod to Grey Hunter Ydalir for actually sigging it, you do me great honor!

 

The honour is mine, you put it so succinctly I had no choice other than immediately placing the quote in my sig. ^_^

[The 13th Goat]

Hunter really has hit the nail on the head. My 2 cents on the subject is that these guidelines will be useful not only for "lazy newbies" but as a referance point for more established board members. It also grants people like Ferrata and Serevus with citebale dictation if a thread is getting out of hand. By simply going keep it civil, exshasbiration can still happen and it often requires a written warning before things cool off. If moderators can point to the guide, then the chances of those involved reading it and cooling off are greatly increased. It will hopefully work to reduce the flaming that sometimes happens here.

[Sigismund Himself]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

 

I've updated the main post with Ferrata and Telveryon's points. I may edit them a little bit so they fit in with the style of the post but the ideas are excellent.

 

Keep the discussion going :)

[GhostLegion]

I have to say, Sigismund Himself, that this post deffinately strikes a cord with things I have noticed over the years. More to the point, this is as much to people offering comments and ideas as it is to the original posters themselves. For my mind, posting half ideas does have its place, but I do not support the idea of having responders craft the chapter for the OP...but anyway. I do highly recomend this for a sticky.

 

Be Nice!

This should be the number one rule. When giving feedback on DIY chapters, it is all too easy to come off as superior to the original poster. To avoid this, you do have to make an effort with your expression of your critique. If your post comes across as negative and self important to the chapter owner, the less likely it is that they will listen to your feedback. It also makes the process of refining a DIY chapter feel as though it is just defending yourself against others' attacks. We know that you're trying to help and that you've taken your own time to post a critique, but being friendly makes it easier to get your point across and keeps the process of making a DIY chapter easier for everyone.

 

Don't Belabor a Point

If you can't get your point across to the owner of the chapter in five posts, another five isn't likely to resolve it. Let it lie or try to find someone else to attempt to explain what you mean or what is wrong with the particular aspect of the chapter's IA. Don't continue to butt heads, try to move onto another area that needs help.

These two go hand in hand and we should all remember this. There is no point to repeating yourself to the OP time and again, if they are not paying attention then no matter how many times you restate the point it will not change their mind...and it tends to make you look worse for repeating yourself time and again.

 

Explain in Detail

When you give a critique, simply don't say that "This bit is wrong". Explain why it is wrong and provide links to sources (such as the Guide to DIYing or an article from the Librarium). If you do this, the DIY chapter owner has the opportunity to learn from their mistakes and get a deeper understanding of the 40k universe more than from you simply posting "No, this is wrong". Just think that if you explain it properly now, it will reduce the amount of critiquing you have to do in the future

 

Try to Give Alternatives

As with the previous example, it's better not to just say "That's wrong". Try to give an example of what does work. This is one of the most hard things to do, especially if you aren't particularly into what the chapter's themes are. Although it is not our job to write the chapter for the creator, just simply suggesting small ideas that they could pursue will help people greatly.

 

Avoid Critique Pile-ins

If someone's already critiqued the chapter in detail, you should avoid treading over the same ground that they have already covered (unless they are wrong in their critiques). A simple "I agree with the above poster, but with there's also this..." works. If a couple of people are already engaged in discussing a point, you should be careful in how you enter the discussion. If done wrongly, it often comes across as ganging up on a DIY chapter owner.

Again, these all fit well together and readers should pay attention. If you disagree with something, do state why...it helps both the OP and other readers who may be treading over something similar in their own work. Also, alternatives can be thought of as "opportunities to excell" or as "opportunities for improvement." This is the best (maybe) time/place for responders to offer modifications to a given point... I do have to hesitantly disagree with the "critique pile in" comment though...mainly because there are times when added weight makes the comment more poignant (especially if offered in light of the other keys brought up here). Pile ins for the sake of piling in is a bad thing...but pile ins with added commentary and reasoning can be constructive. The key to me is not to hate on an idea...well not blindly anyway... If you are going to argue against an idea, have a reason. If you have a reason, try to express it as best you can. When offered, constructive criticism can be the most important information an OP recieves.

 

Don't Ignore Critiques

At least acknowledge that people have made the effort to critique your work, even if you don't intend to take their advice. They've taken the time to try and help you develop your ideas. If you ignore the critiques that have been made, you're less likely to attract more people who are willing to look over your work and help you.

The only argument against this is if the critique takes the OP in a direction he does not want to take his chapter... Sometimes critiques offered do not make sense to the OP or his intent. This can be as much the fault of the OP as it is to the responder....

 

I Know What I Mean...

When you respond to feedback on your DIY chapter, you should try to explain the intent and ideas behind what you have written to the person critiquing your work. It is a lot easier to help you if the person replying to your IA understands what you are trying to accomplish with the particular bit that has been highlighted. If they don't understand a particular section of your IA, you should have a closer look at it. Just because you understand it doesn't mean that everyone else can understand it.

I would add that what may be obvious to the OP may not be so obvious to the reader. One of the hardest things to do in writing is to get your idea across to your readers. This is doubly hard in an online forum, where responses and misconceptions come fast... Both responders and OP need to review their posts before hitting the submit button. Additionally, both should not be afraid to use the edit function to refine their comments (if no one else has added a comment). Reviewing your post can help you determine if you really are saying what you want to...editing can help in reducing the tendancy for some of us to double post with little to no value added for the addition....

A Slow Day in Hell

Liber is slow; it always has been and always will be. It is a strange phenomenon which occurs given the statistics, but everyone will agree that Liber seems like a slow board. Don’t get annoyed or over eager if your thread doesn’t receive a reply in the first hour, or the first fifty views. Some people like to give feedback on fresh ideas where they feel their opinions might bear fruit, others love to get into full blown chapters and given grammatical feedback, we are all different. If your thread drops of the front page without a reply, then either your need to do some more work yourself and repost, or maybe consider PMing one of the Mods and ask them really nicely, we don’t want anyone not to get the attention they deserve.

 

Everyone Hates Me

Critique is generally negative; we will rarely say we think something is good. Generally, if we don't post a note on something, we think it's at least alright, if not good. We are a fan of the stick in this forum because it is what works. It is presumed that any chapter posted in Liber wants to fit the collective universe created by GW, so we'll all attempt to push background in that direction. There is little point going “cool”, that is what PC&A is for. Don’t be disheartened if all you are getting is “Change this bit” “This is wrong”, it is not that you are useless and can’t do anything right, it is we are giving critique and not a slap on the back. Unfortunately, text is always a cold medium.

Both of these stand alone as good points, but together they make another one: Just because your post did not recieve a comment does not mean everyone hates/loves your ideas. Many posts do not recieve comment. Many decent posts recieve "hey nice paint job" instead of any post/comment to the chapter idea. Yes, the liber and its crowd are slow, but we can only hope this will support and enhance comments and replies when they are made.

 

All in all, valid points here. These are things that anyone lurking in the liber should remain aware of. The only thing I would add is: Take time to think about what you are saying before you post it...and if you are going to post a draft chapter article, please use a spell checker!

[Octavulg]

There are two points that I am not entirely in agreement with (OK, there may be more. But these two stand out).

 

Try to Give Alternatives

As with the previous example, it's better not to just say "That's wrong". Try to give an example of what does work. This is one of the most hard things to do, especially if you aren't particularly into what the chapter's themes are. Although it is not our job to write the chapter for the creator, just simply suggesting small ideas that they could pursue will help people greatly.

 

Alternatives are good. Far too many of my good ideas come from other people. However, I think it best to keep the offering of alternatives to a minimum. The explanation of what is wrong and (hopefully) why should provide a good enough explanation of what the problem is that they can think of some alternative on their own, for one thing.

 

But more importantly - this is their IA. Let them write it. I try and offer alternatives only when I can think of something that seems at least a little different or interesting - otherwise, it seems far better to let the author develop his creative abilities. It's like teaching any other skill - you don't grab the whole thing away from them and do it for them (well, OK, I do, but I'm a lousy teacher). Help them when they're really stuck or you have something important to show them - otherwise, keep your hands off their IA.

 

Avoid Critique Pile-ins

If someone's already critiqued the chapter in detail, you should avoid treading over the same ground that they have already covered (unless they are wrong in their critiques). A simple "I agree with the above poster, but with there's also this..." works.

 

The unquoted part of this paragraph, I 100% agree with. ;) Ongoing arguments are a good way to get people cranky.

 

I like it when five people post explaining to me that something is flat-out incomprehensible, or they're not quite clear on how something works, or to say that something just doesn't fit with the background. It shows that this is a serious problem. If only one person has a problem, I tend to take it less seriously.

 

That said, I find it a good general policy not to jump into debates and arguments if I'm not prepared to review the whole IA and comment on it - it's not fair to go picking bits out of somebody's work if I'm not going to pick at all parts of it equally. Of course, I seldom follow my general policies. ;)

 

I guess the point I'm getting at here is that personally, I think it's a good thing to repeat points of criticism that may have already been gone over - but make sure you're not just posting to say "me too" in an ongoing argument. Some points need work more than others, and pointing that out won't make you a bad human being. Honest. :D

 

EDIT:

 

Oh, as an addendum to the point on why we're all stick - there's a limited number of quote tags, and fixing stuff usually seems more important than affirming that something is good.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Alternatives are good. Far too many of my good ideas come from other people. However, I think it best to keep the offering of alternatives to a minimum. The explanation of what is wrong and (hopefully) why should provide a good enough explanation of what the problem is that they can think of some alternative on their own, for one thing.

 

 

You raise a good point there, but I don't think it's quite as simple as you or the original post come across as.

 

I think the difference between a good explanation and adding on an alternative is highly situational. Whether you do or do not offer one, the other or both of these ways to either illustrate a point, jump on bad judgment or discussing a chapter in general terms is entirely up to you (obviously) and how you decide to respond to the situation.

 

If the Author (I hate the term OP as it seems too often associated with those of 4chan's ilk) of the article under review seems nonplussed or unable to figure out where to go from where he is at that point for whatever reason, then it is a good time to offer him a viable alternative.

 

If the author has a good grasp of what he wants his chapter to be and seems to be handling his ability to re-write things and come up with new ideas then this is less needed. Obviously there are grey areas within which your own judgment is paramount when not fitting within such tightly defined guidelines.

 

On the spellchecker issue, I think it applies to both sides of the fence, though being rather apparent as to why it sits more heavily on the DIY'ers side. If the author can't understand your critique whether that is through bad grammar or a lack of true comprehension of the english language (also applies to some native english speakers, unfortunately) does not help anyone and can often make things worse.

 

Many decent posts recieve "hey nice paint job" instead of any post/comment to the chapter idea.

 

This is a good example of what I consider a 'bad post'. If the author has posted something on the board you can bet that he personally thinks it's good enough to be reviewed by his peers. While giving positive feedback on any part of a DIY is always a good thing, posting one line (for any reason) with nothing more than a few words of encouragement is merely clutter and is not actually helping the article to be developed or improved in any way, which is exactly what Liber is here for.

 

At the very least I think you should give a good analysis of the paint scheme and say exactly what you do and don't like about it, and perhaps offer a couple of colour alternatives if you have an idea of something that would look better. The colour scheme however, in Liber, is beside the point unless every other area of literary pursuit has been tied up neatly and people are generally nodding their heads sagely in approval.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Bump.

 

Looking at how this fits into the "grand scheme of things" with regards to existing Guide to DIYing and Telveryon's up-and-coming work on DIYing, I think this could work very well as a stickied thread alongside Ferrata's Guide to DIYing and Telveryon's work (assuming that goes through). Is anyone else interested in seeing this become part of a triumvirate of the Guide to DIYing, this Guide to Giving Feedback, and Telveryon's possible work on expanding your DIY after recieving initial C&C?

[Apothete]

Looking at how this fits into the "grand scheme of things" with regards to existing Guide to DIYing and Telveryon's up-and-coming work on DIYing, I think this could work very well as a stickied thread alongside Ferrata's Guide to DIYing and Telveryon's work (assuming that goes through). Is anyone else interested in seeing this become part of a triumvirate of the Guide to DIYing, this Guide to Giving Feedback, and Telveryon's possible work on expanding your DIY after recieving initial C&C?

 

I'm on the fence, since Ferrata explained his reasoning for wanting these two additions as subheadings for the existing article. They stand well enough on their own and could easily be their own article, but I see his point about not filling up the sticky header.

 

Either way, I second the call for both articles to be included in whatever means we find of putting them up.

[bigmalky]

I've read both this and Telveryon's articles and both are very informative. I have noticed recently through reading some of the posts that there are a few people willing to attack posts in a non productive manner and points coming across as 'a bit septic'. But to be honest, people who are coming onto the boards with ideas should be accepting criticism from those who have established themselves in knowing a hell of a lot about the fluff than we do.

 

I say we because I'm new to chapter building and have recently posted some information that I'd like to work on. No matter how anyone comes across, I know I'm receiving valuable information from fluff veterans and will pay attention because it will help us all get much more aware of where our chapters fit and how we can develop things further.

 

Thanks for both guides, may we see them stickied at least somewhere reachable to newcomers :D

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I'm on the fence, since Ferrata explained his reasoning for wanting these two additions as subheadings for the existing article. They stand well enough on their own and could easily be their own article, but I see his point about not filling up the sticky header.

 

Either way, I second the call for both articles to be included in whatever means we find of putting them up.

 

Oops, failed to spot that point of Ferrata's. :D

 

I'm not advocating any particular way of adding them, just that they be stickied in some shape or form. I should have made that clear.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Either way, I second the call for both articles to be included in whatever means we find of putting them up.

 

What you second, in this case I third. This needs to be attached to the stuck Guide to DIY'ing at the top of the board. However I think a change in title would be better.

 

Perhaps: "A Guide to Liber Astartes" Or "A Guide to posting in Liber Astartes." Or something equally informative.

[Sigismund Himself]

I think I need to clean up some of my points and wording first before this thing gets considered for any addition to the sticky. I intend to do it but there's a couple of other things (an AoD story, another IA) that I'm working on at the moment. I'll see if I can find some time to do the clearing up and then Ferrata or Severus can do what they wish with it.

 

Glad that's it's being useful for people, still :P

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Perhaps: "A Guide to Liber Astartes" Or "A Guide to posting in Liber Astartes." Or something equally informative.

 

"A Guide to Criticism"? There's definitely a link between posting your DIY chapter and going on to be a regular in the Liber, but my worry with your two suggestions is that they're very generic.

[Sigismund Himself]

And there's the completed and proofed version, as Tyrak has been patiently waiting for :D If there's anything more to add, please speak up now before I end up whisking this off to Ferrata's inbox.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

I like it Siggy. It's succinct and doesn't ramble on. It gets the point across efficiently, which is the purpose. It gets my vote, if that even counts in any legitimate manner. :lol:

[Sigismund Himself]

Finally put the finishing touches on it, after several edits of mine seemingly haven't stayed put in the original post...

[Grand Master Tyrak]

What the Liber

 

Should this be "What the Liber is for" or something similar?

[Ace Debonair]

What the Liber

 

Should this be "What the Liber is for" or something similar?

 

I thought that looked odd, now you mention it. I assumed it was some kind of exclamation of suprrise, as in; "What the Liber is going on here?!" :)

I realise now that was probably not the intent, but I expect I'll continue to say that anyway whenever something shocking occurs.

 

I actually read this long ago, and at the time wondered why this was not at the top of the forum with the DIY guide.

The revised version is concise and well-written, and I couldn't find anything to criticize. I just hope more people continue to read this work, regardless of what happens to it.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I actually read this long ago, and at the time wondered why this was not at the top of the forum with the DIY guide.

 

You can stop wondering now, it's gone in (exclamation and all). :)

[Ferrata]

I presumed it was meant to be a joke on "what the hell" seeing as Liber is like hell, cold, discomforting and full of people with dark, recessed eyes....