Assassins...

[SoulReaver296]

So i love my eversor (BTW, do you say EVER-sor, e-VER-ser, or EV-er-ser?), and have tried the vindicare out (actually worked out well for me). However, i have found that our assassins all boil down to old staples (the close combat psycho, the sniper, the spy, and the souless monster that freaks everyone out). i know there are another 2 temples for sure (though i know little of them), but what else is there? is there something else that you think would fit in, while being reasonable and still cool

 

For example, i would love to have a "gunslinger" assassin... sorta like the grammaton clerics from Equilibrium. something focusing on short ranged, high power firepower. And i don't know if theres ANYTHING to support it, but a clockwork assassin, even if its just a conversion (if not, it would be a "special weapon" assassin)

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Well for me i have had success with the Vindicare against SM, i shoot out all Sgt or Vet Sgt's from squads, that way when you assault that squad they lack Power weapons or Power fists.

 

I also target Hvy weapons too.

Eversor is just un to watch for the limited time he has before getting killed, and the Culexus is just freaky when against Psykers of any kind, though i have used him against non-psyker armies for there Soulless ability.

Ant then have a Callidus assassin is justa must i love her ability and weapons.

 

As for others i know of a Poison Temple think its called Vernum but dont quote me on it.

[GlauG]

IIRC, "Veneum"?

 

I don't know if you really need anything else, assassin-wise. Each of them already embodies one of the 4 facets of James Bond. *ducks*

[Grey Mage]

What more could I want?

 

Frag Grenades.

[Prathios]

What more could I want?

 

Frag Grenades.

 

We have a winner! I attacked my opponents Tau Battlesuit Commander with a calidus assassin a few games back and he was standing in area terrain. I thought nothing of it since my chick was a CC machine... So a few dice rolls later and a :huh: face from me I had a dead Cally. No grenades on a CC type character = lame. But honestly I don't see grenades being her style, I would simply put a rule in the assassin entry that they do not grant initiative to an opponent when assaulting through cover. You don't see em coming after all.

[Toogeloo]

EVER-sor? Can you even say that without saying E-ver-sor or Ev-er-sor?

 

I agree, cover absolutely kills the Assassins without something to allow them to keep their initiative. Eversor even come with Meltabombs, but no other grenades...

 

 

As for what else could I want?

 

-Vindicare to have unlimited special ammunition, you choose which to fire each round of the special ammo.

-Eversor to get his double tapping Pistol back.

[SoulReaver296]

i meant in terms of syllable stress, but my phonetic spelling skills are rusty to say the least.

[Chengar Qordath]

As for what else could I want?

 

-Vindicare to have unlimited special ammunition, you choose which to fire each round of the special ammo.

Unlimited special ammunition would make the Vindicare much more worthwhile for his points.

 

-Eversor to get his double tapping Pistol back.

One could argue he still has it under RAW, as his entry does specifically mention that he may fire his pistol twice.

[blindcider]

I Love the assassin models but they don't work very well for me.

 

Take the Vindicaire, If I use special ammo I roll a '1', if I don't use special ammo I roll a 1, then a 3.

 

I have much better luck taking another exorcist!

[Race Bannon]

Assassins are neat. But that's about it :angry:

[ArmouredWing]

I've got a couple of suggestions to give assassins a bit more worth on the table.

 

Firstly, 'Eternal Warrior' across the board. There's nothing worse than having 100pts (give or take a few) nailed in one go before they've even had chance to do any damage. Add this and each wound is a wound regardless of weapon S.

 

Then for each individual;

Callidus - Make it that 'A Word In Your Ear' is not restrained to just your opponents force within their deployment zone. Open it right up so that she can either be used to move enemy units 6" where ever they are deployed, including infiltrators, but also make it possible for her to move friendly a unit 6" if desired. Fluff wise itcould be justifiied through her feeding the allied force with inside intelligence.

 

Eversor - I'd agree that he deserves to get his 2 shots back and thats just the start. For me the Eversor should represent the closest thing to a khorne berserker that can exist in theimperium without being purged. So, lets get 'Feel no Pain' added in there, after all, he's so drugged up to the eyeballs he's not going to feel an awful lot of pain if he's hurt.

 

Vindicare - This is a bit of a tough one as I don't agree with giving unlimited special rounds to him, it would defintiely make him overpowered and the turbo penetrator would pretty much be the no brainer choice turn in turn out. I think a little bit of a subtle touch is required, such as master crafting his weapon or giving him BS6. All you need is that reroll to make the difference because it's when he misses that he fails to get his points back.

 

Finally, I've never played a culexus so couldn't make a definitive comment but considering the influx of psykers there's got to be a place for him, however it does need to be a bit more universal to appeal to players.

[Chengar Qordath]

Eternal Warrior seems like a good idea; on a 2-wound model it's useful, but not overpowered.

 

The Culexus is a tricky one to work with because it suffers from the same flaw as most units/wargear designed to work against a specific enemy/unit; there is no guarantee that enemy will be present in any given list. People don't want to take unit geared to fight against Psykers when there's a very good chance that any given enemy list will not have any Psykers in it. I'd suggest re-tooling the Culexus so that while it remains very good at killing Psykers it's still a worthwhile unit when there isn't a single psyker in the enemy army.

 

Improving the Callidus' "A Word in Your Ear" could work, though I'd personally rather see the neural shredder have a higher effecive strength; as it stands most units you send a Callidus after have Ld 9 or 10, which makes the shredder pretty hard to wound with.

 

With the Vindicare, I think at least having Hellfire rounds as standard is needed; usually I don't have a problem with the Vindicare missing so much as failing to wound.

 

FNP on the Eversor matches the fluff for him.

[DevianID]

Assassians are definately behind the curve in terms of power. If it were up to me, instead of making the assassians worth their cost, I would slash their price. Guardsman Marbo is the best example that I can think of for appropriate cost...

 

Marbo and the callidus are very similiar in abilities, marbo's 1 use demopack is about as good as the neural shredder, the sniper pistol is good, and 6 attacks that wound on a 2+ is nothing to sneeze at. The callidus gets less attacks, but can charge when she comes into play. She has less attacks and is harder to wound with, but ignores all saves. Hit and run versus jump back is about a wash.

 

The callidus does have a better save and the ability to move an enemy unit 6 inches, so to call her price at about 75-80 points would feel about right.

 

I did like the idea of a really awesome gunslinger, btw. Perhaps something like the culexus assassian, where you get extra pistol shots depending on how many units are within range... or perhaps everything within 6(12?) inches takes a pistol hit? Also, the gunslinger would need a better save, so perhaps a 3++, to represent enhancements to speed required to dodge bullets.

 

As for what else? Well, an assassian that works behind the scenes would be nice. Kind of like how the master of the fleet gives negatives to reserves and outflanking. So for example, one unit may be delayed, thus must start in reserve. Foodstuffs may be poisoned, thus every model in a unit takes a poison wound on a 6+, no saves. Ammo dumps are sabotaged, thus all successful 6's to-hit must be rerolled. That kind of stuff.

[ValourousHeart]

Vindicare should be simple to fix... give him all of the special rules for every other sniper in the game. (for example)

 

1. Drop all of the special ammo (don't yell, it'll be OK)

2. Change the profile of his gun / shooting rules... Range 48", Hits on 2+ (BS5), 3+ to wound vs any T,

3. Rules like eldar pathfinders (to hit of 5+ gives AP 1) and Rending on 5+, AP value is 3+2d6+rending (+2D3 if both dice role 5+) that can pop armor 21 so should be good enough. (vs monolith AP will always be 3+2d6... just spell it out)

4. Give him Psy-bolts... ignore invul.

 

5. and finally.... he gets to shoot 2 times. Can pick target models from different units ....if both targets are in the same unit, pinning check is at -3... or make units re-roll successful pinning check.

[Toogeloo]

Vindicare - This is a bit of a tough one as I don't agree with giving unlimited special rounds to him, it would defintiely make him overpowered and the turbo penetrator would pretty much be the no brainer choice turn in turn out. I think a little bit of a subtle touch is required, such as master crafting his weapon or giving him BS6. All you need is that reroll to make the difference because it's when he misses that he fails to get his points back.

 

While Turbo Penetrating Rounds would seem pretty good to use every turn, the fact that you would only wound 50% of the time makes them still very difficult to apply wounds. Against Vehicles, while it will have Rending, it is still an AP2 weapon meaning you still only have a 33% chance of actually destroying a vehicle on a Penetration. Finally, the Vindicare uses a Heavy Weapon which means he is unable to move and shoot. He also has to take those shots at less than 36" away. And while he has a Night Fight protection, he is still very easy to take down. A Rhino full of Marines could ride up and double tap him easily into oblivion, or a squad of Assault Marines, or Deep struck Termies. All armies have something capable of taking on a stationary infantry model with a 50/50 save.

 

 

Probably a more amicable solution would be to give the Vindicare Shield Breaker 2+ to hit, 4+ to wound no Invul save allowed and Hellfire 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound both in Unlimited Supply. Once per game the the Vindicare can fire a Turbo-Penetrating Round with the Following Profile: Strength 8 with 2d6 Armor Penetration, Small Blast. It will only inflict one wound (not two like the Book says) against enemy models (but at Strength 8 can cause ID! to applicable models on failed saves).

[FunkyEntropy]

I think this would be a good time to give a link to the work we've done over in Aidoneus' thread, Fixing Daemonhunters.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=163454

 

From the first page:

Officio Assasinorum Operative: (edited according to post #201)

Frag, Krak, and Defensive Grenades

Stealth

May be taken in lists that do not include an inquisitor or inquisitor lord.

 

 

Vindicare Temple Assassin: (edited according to post #179, 201, 250)

115pts

BS 7

 

Headshot! : Whenever the Vindicare rolls a 6 to-hit (on his first attempt, not the re-roll for having BS7) with his Exitus Rifle, the shot automatically wounds and counts as AP1.

 

 

Page 27

 

Culexus Temple Assassin: (edited according to post #201)

110pts

 

Etherium:

any unit wishing to shoot at or charge the Culexus Assassin must first pass a Leadership test: if the test is failed they may not target the Assassin, but may target another unit instead. No psychic power may target the Assassin, or include it in an area of effect.

 

Soulless:

Any unit (friend or foe) with a model within 12" of the Culexus Assassin suffers a -3 Ld penalty. This is cumulative with other Ld penalties.

 

 

Page 28

 

Callidus Temple Assassin: (edited according to post #214, 226)

125pts

The Neural Shredder is a single-handed weapon

Against vehicles, the Neural Shredder automatically makes one roll on the vehicle damage table, with a -4 modifier

Jump Back becomes Hit and Run

 

 

Eversor Temple Assassin: (edited according to post #201)

100pts

Fast Shot: Executioner Pistol is assault 2

[ArmouredWing]

I think this would be a good time to give a link to the work we've done over in Aidoneus' thread, Fixing Daemonhunters.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=163454

 

From the first page:

Officio Assasinorum Operative: (edited according to post #201)

May be taken in lists that do not include an inquisitor or inquisitor lord.

This is where I do have a problem. Assassins need the requirement of an =][= to unlock them, the whole point is that an inquisitor is the only one who can authorise their use in the field (in tabletop terms anyway).

 

I think the key is that assassins do not need a lot doing to them to mak them worth their points. It's a bit of tweaking here and there in addition to the rules they already have using USR's to acheive the desired goal.

[Maharajah]

Finally, I've never played a culexus so couldn't make a definitive comment but considering the influx of psykers there's got to be a place for him, however it does need to be a bit more universal to appeal to players.

Considering how important Ld tests are in 5th ed I think the Culexus is useful against any army. Well, almost any. But he's not going to do it single handedly. You need to use the Culexus as part of a team to gang up on a vulnerable enemy unit. Get him nearby, apply some pressure, and watch them break.

[blindcider]

I think the problem with the vindicaire assassins is this:

 

It's not quite tough enough to take out a priority A target - i.e. monstrous creatures and Generals without major assistance. Basically anything with more than 2W You also only have one chance to take out a tank!

 

yet Its too valuable (points cost) to waste on killing normal troopers (incl sqd leaders and heavy troopers)

 

My favourite is now the Callidus assassin, but even she struggles with the same issues as the vindicaire (but much likelier to kill that priority A target)

[Gentlemanloser]

on a CC type character = lame. But honestly I don't see grenades being her style, I would simply put a rule in the assassin entry that they do not grant initiative to an opponent when assaulting through cover. You don't see em coming after all.

 

Just give her 'Ignores Difficult Terrain' (Like Harlequins). No Terrain Test, no need for Frags. ;)

 

I'm also weighing in that at the very least the Vindicare should have unlimited special ammo.

[SoulReaver296]

what about having a set amount of special ammo, but you choose which ones? so you would have 3 special ammo slots... then you could put in 3 turbo pen, or 2 turbo pen 1 shield breaker, or 1 of each.

[Toogeloo]

what about having a set amount of special ammo, but you choose which ones? so you would have 3 special ammo slots... then you could put in 3 turbo pen, or 2 turbo pen 1 shield breaker, or 1 of each.

Gleaning from the Space Marine Codex, I would assume that if they gave the Vindicare more Special Ammunition, it would likely be Unlimited. Hellfire Shells are unlimited, the different Sternguard ammunition is all unlimited supply as well. All I can really see is them changing how Turbo-Penetration works to be more balanced.

[benmothershaw]

I would like to see the death cult assassins customizable with upgrades like Needle Pistols, Poison blades, fleet, stealth, furious charge etc.

[Frank Fugger]

What more could I want?

 

Frag Grenades.

 

This.

 

I don't think allowing the Vindicare to ignore all saving throws, wound on a 2+ or Turbo-Penetrate every turn would be a very good idea; don't forget that his rifle is AP2. A round that ignored cover saves would be cool though, as would something to replace the defunct Fast Shot special rule.

[gil galed]

What more could I want?

 

Frag Grenades.

 

This.

 

I don't think allowing the Vindicare to ignore all saving throws, wound on a 2+ or Turbo-Penetrate every turn would be a very good idea; don't forget that his rifle is AP2. A round that ignored cover saves would be cool though, as would something to replace the defunct Fast Shot special rule.

 

i think that the vindicare should be able to ignore cover, i mean with the prevalance of 4+ it takes away the power of the vindicare when he only makes 5 shots a game, should ignore cover on a roll of 3+ or something to hit