Decent of Angels ... why the hate

[Daren]

Aside from some slow parts, I found it rather interesting. To me though it seems more like just a Dark Angel book rather than a Horus Heresy book.

[Brother Subtle]

i kind of liked it, but i can see why many didnt. i guess i made excuses for it becuase i like the DA's.

bits i liked:

as someone said, felt like a warhammer novel set in warhammer 40K

i liked Zac dealing with his psyker abilities without actualy knowing what they were

thats... about it really.

 

it really did feel like half a book. lets hope FA takes the ante up!

[Raven Angel]

If that is then the writer was probably ready for the crapstorm he kicked off.

[Vash113]

As far as not tying into the other HH novels, it does give a bit of information concerning something that always irked me.... how did the fully adult members of the Order (or the other warrior organizations that existed on the other Primarchs' homeworlds) get to become Space Marines? If the aspirant needs to be physically immature to survive the implantation of the progenoid and all the following new organs, how did these old guys do it? And Descent answered that question for me.... those who were too old were only turned halfway into Astartes, their skills and knowledge were far to valuable to lose.

 

That's old news though, the Knights of Caliban were known about before Descent of Angels, that they were only partially transformed. Unless I'm much mistaken that was in the Dark Angels IA and the information could have been found online easily enough. Descent of Angels didn't tell us anything new and that's just sad.

 

I think that's the point, really. To shake up our preconceptions of what happened during the Heresy and the qualities of the major players therein. The books have certainly made me reconsider the motivations of the Emperor himself.... Whereas before I thought his goal was the salvation of humanity, now I'm not so sure. But then, from a story-telling standpoint it really is brilliant!

 

I don't see how DoA shook things up really, Angels of Darkness had a much greater impact and delved much deeper into the events of the Heresy and the actions of Johnson than DoA did and the other HH books haven't shaken the known plot up too much if at all except for that rather rediculous Battle for the Abyss book.

[Vel'Cona]

I think the biggest problem with Descent of Angels is that it really has very little to do with the actual Horus Heresy. It is true that it takes place during the early days of the Dark Angels and gives good insight into the chapter they became after the Heresy, but it is really more of a place-setting book for the actual Fall of Caliban (which I believe will be a far better read). Although, by that tack, you could argue that Horus Rising (the greatest of the HH books in my humble opinion) is pretty much along the same lines. However, the story of the Luna Wolves and the character of Horus pre-Chaos possession is much higher in impact to the interplanetary scale of WH40k, and so will appeal to a much greater number of players. Not to mention that Dan Abnett is easily in competition for the spot of number one writer in all of Black Library.

That said, I believe the hate for Descent of Angels is mostly based in the fact that it really only appeals to Dark Angels players (all 3 of you. Seriously, how many people are still using that list after C:SM released? Disregarding Deathwing armies for the fluffy guys, of course). The writing is not good enough to draw in other readers who favor particular Astartes, which leaves the book a very small window of interest. That, and the story of the Dark Angels is this huge clandestine secret in modern 40k, which further lowers the status of DoA to a fanboy-only read.

To defend my views on this book, I'd like to note that, as a Blood Angels player (in the past, when we were actually given the courtesy of a codex) I will admit that the series written about them failed to interest me. The situation is not quite the same, as the Blood Angel series is not HH, but hopefully this will dissuade any idea that I'm simply a DA hater.

[ArcticFox]

I liked it overall, but as someone said before it's like reading only half a novel.

 

It also seemed as if the author glossed over a lot of things that one would have expected to be included, but people always disagree about such things.

 

The only real issue I had with it was the end. the Lion suddenly seemed to have a real problem with Zahariel and maybe I missed something, but I don't see why. Zahariel probably proved his worth and loyalty more times and in more ways than any other individual Dark Angel, so the only thing I can think of is that maybe when Luther confessed his moment of weakness to the Lion (Which we can only assume he did... we don't really know) he somehow implicated Zahariel and the Lion believed it... and still said nothing to him. I just can't come up with a scenario in my head that makes sense...

 

...but the real problem is, of course, that I shouldn't HAVE to come up with a scenario. It should be in the story. Not necessarily spelled out, but something I can use to understand. I mean, it's not like a Primarch to be mad at someone but do nothing but shoot them dirty looks all day and send them off.

 

Am I just missing something? Here's the sequence of events, as I understand them:

 

The Lion favors Zahariel as a knight

Zahariel is selected as one of the elite to go meet the angels

Zahariel joins the honor guard to meet the Emperor

Zahariel prevents the bombing.

Zahariel joins the DA honor guard

 

Up to this point, the Lion seems to like Zahariel fine.

 

Zahariel prevents the bomb in the spacecraft from blowing up the ship, Luther has his moment of weakness

Zahariel and Luther return to duty

Zahariel makes a comment in a strategy meeting and the Lion shoots him a venomous look, enough to startle him, and replies.

The Lion comments on Zahariel's actions in the cave "What did you do, Zahariel?" and he replies "What had to be done"

The Lion is staring at him on the way back up.

Zahariel is reassigned to Caliban along with Luther in apparent disgrace.

 

...what did I miss?

[Bigger-than-Jesus]

Arcticfox-I think it's to do with the fact that Luther seems closer to Zahariel than the Lion does, and If it's set after the council of Nikea then that could be another reason-Zahariel is a Librarian after all.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Basically it was boring.

 

It had nothing to do with the Heresy as it was progressing, unlike Horus Rising or Flight of the Eisenstein.

[ForTheLion]

I liked it :devil: propably one of the least favourite DA books but i did like it :( gave us this knightly medevil feeling which took us out of the gothic emo imperial theme ;) that was kinda refreshing.

Also if it did anything it made the lion much more complex and mysterious and the emperor much more...well not so likeable (as we see in the next book)

[Greyhunter77]

I liked the start explaining Calibans history and how the Lion changed the social structure, but it seemed to move slowly. Then when it started to get interesting and the splits started to show it ended. I had the old Angels of Death codex so I knew some of the history just as I knew some of the Heresy history and I was looking for more details.

[Tutteman]

I liked it...so shoot me :D

[Marshal Varas Mortez]

I think the point was it was too far out of the Heresy, I know that its setting up the back story of the Dark angels, but we all know that Luthor and Lion were as close as could be. Would possibly have been better to focus on waging war as the first legion and then having luthor do something to question/betray trust, openly. Then be sent home. But do it over a book. Personally that would be the way I would have gone about it, keeping it more in line with the series. Rather than jumping back fifty odd years.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

As soon as I found out that the main character etc. were 8 year old kids, I got turned off. I mean, they're just kids. Slaying monsters. They aren't Space Marine enhanced, they're kids. I don't care how well-trained your 8 year old is, I don't care how cool his sword is, he's going to die against monsters.

Those things should've just slapped 'em, bam, book over.

 

I could buy 14, 'cuz in feudal times by 15 or 16 you were a man grown. But not 8.

[Retributis]

Well seeing as most humans selected for implantation and upgrade to be marines are usually around 10 according the chart 8 isn't so implausible...

[igotsmeakabob!!]

But they're just 8 year-old kids, killing monsters without any space marine augmentation. How is that not implausible? What does one have to do with the other?

[Chaplain ChonkE]

I would think most Space Marine candidates from a Death World would be quite capable of handling themselves, especially if given crude forms of power armor and bolt weapons. These are exactly the types of humans that Astartes search for to be suitable carriers of the Chapter's geneseed and legacy. As to how it relates? The humans raised to Knighthood with the various Orders of Caliban most likely be suitable for Astartes candidacy, and most Astartes candidates in the fluff are young, ruthless, driven/ambitious and killers/warriors of the highest order. The tribes of Fenris and other Death World cultures battle and take trophies from beasts most would consider monstrous, without any advanced equipment *shudders at the thought of Fenrisian tribesmen with flamers and bolters and then looks at his Pup army and smiles*

 

edit spells

[Captain Vesica]

Alright people Ive been going all over this board and I get a general feeling that people did not like descent of angels. What i want to know is WHAT exactly was it that people disliked, was it the narrative style, was the characters, or was it just because of fluff. and please use constrictive criticism and understand that people have opinion, however dont just state it Explain it

 

Good book if it was a 'single' story, but compared to the other heresy books it was lack luster.

[ArcticFox]

I would add that while I did like it, as I said, it was jarring. What I mean is:

 

Books 1-3 were in sequence, forming a trilogy. Books 4 and 5 overlapped the timeline but added to the tale and extended it from different characters' points of view.

 

This one did neither, in that it started something like 200 years before the Heresy and was completely unrelated to the material already released.

 

Now, I understand if they're trying to show that the seeds of heresy were sown in widely different places and times, but the feeling that this story was incomplete and the fact that the very next book in the series starts yet another unrelated thread, makes DoA feel very out of place. It might have been better of they'd released this one and FoA in sequence, linking them to the existing material at the end or something, but doing it like this makes it hard to keep it all in my head.

 

The narrative style and the quality of the writing were fine, although more on the change from Knight of the Order to Astartes would have been nice.

[Whylie]

to me the problem is that what happens to the DA is completely seperate from the Heresey and there hadn't been enough work done by GW or BL or who ever to try and tie the two events to gether and when the books are read in order, Decsent of Angels just sticks out like a sore thum.