Kal Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Hi all, As I've deiceded to revist my old Salamanders, I've been putting together some test lists, with as many flamer/meltas as I can. And well, I hit upon Sternguard - great unit by themselves, but what are peoples thoughts and/or experiences with them when you combine them with He'Stan and take 2 Heavy Flamers? In a Rhino or DP, I'm looking at roughly 275 pts for 10 ten, 2 Heavy Flamers, PF and the transport - it is worth it? Kal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedwin183 Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 My friend, you are miscalculating the cost dramatically. Its 250 for 10 men base. 330 points for something that is going to die just as quickly as a regular tac squad, isn't scoring and will NEVER earn those points back. No matter what size game you're playing, its a waste of points. If I were going for something like this, I'd go with: 5 man squad 125 2x hvy. flamers 20 drop pod 35 180 points for 5 guys is still a little pricey. At that point, you're getting close to terminator price. However, dropping down next to something mean and nasty, torching it with 2 hvy. flamers and then rapid firing either hellfire rounds or not giving them a cover save or making it ap3... I think that would be points far better spent. Look at it this way: You WILL lose this squad quickly. Might as well make it cheap and effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal Posted June 2, 2009 Author Share Posted June 2, 2009 Opps,yeah, sorry, total mis-calculation....wonder how i got to that.... But the points is still alot - too much then ^_^ Kal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedwin183 Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Yeah like I said, a 5-man squad with 2 heavy weapons is typically the way you see this kind of thing work. For instance, when the new dex first came out, everyone was raving about 5 sternguard with 2 heavy weapons that ended up being cheaper than if you purchased 5 devastators with 2 of the same heavy weapon. I'd probably make the same kind of loadout, only put 2 hvy. flamers in it. Could be a good squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal Posted June 2, 2009 Author Share Posted June 2, 2009 Ok, 5 man with 2 heavy Flamers - might be a nice bodyguard for a Master of the Forge? Kal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Fury Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 I also collect salamanders and at the time when i first started playing with sternguard i equipped them like this. 10xSternguard, 2 combi-melta's, 2 Heavy Flamers, 1 PF, Drop pod with deathwing missile launcher. I don't have the codex at hand but it was something like 365 points, way to much for something that dies as easily as normal marines. However after a few changes they found a place in my army, they're good for supporting tactical squads seeing as though they can't really finish off many squads by themselves. They're good for a 1 trick play, Drop podding onto an enemy vehicle that you know will hurt. They get out combi-melta the rear armor, with Vulkan in your army you're going to destroy or do something to that vehicle. Against monstrous creatures such as the nightbringer for example. A chap at our local club swears by him, i drop pod in 8 Sternguard with 2 combi-meltas and 1 PF and he's dead, he's only got a 4++ and hellfire shells wound a 2+, that's alot of 4++ saves when you're in rapid fire range. The Current way i use sternguard is to support, or as a 1 trick pony, drop pod them near an executioner russ and that's like 230pts+ gone? (Don't have the codex) My Current format for sternguard are 8xSternguard, 1 PF, 2 Combi-meltas, with a drop pod-DWML, comes to about 300ish points, which is still incredibly expensive. The trouble with such an expensive unit is you want them to kill stuff but you also want to ensure there safety, but you must understand in the grim future of 40k, everything dies. Crimson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal Posted June 2, 2009 Author Share Posted June 2, 2009 Interesting. I was also thinking of running SG 'bare' no upgrades of weapons, 10 strong in a DP, and paint themup as Deathwatch, might be interesting against the rest of the army? (with no flamers/meltas, I wont be tempted to use Vulkans special rules with the SG, which wouldbt be salamanders anyways...) - add in a libby, and its very cool imagery - tho GI with SG is a bit dodgy.... Kal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 I don't understand what's the fascination with drop podded sternguard. I mean, sure, they can potentially do a lot of damage, but really, there are too many factors in this. The drop pod might scatter, potentially rendering those flamers/combimeltas ineffective. Your opponent might keep everything mechanized, so you will at best kill a single vehicle. In dawn of war deployment, you might end up going first and your opponent might simply decide to keep everything off the table and entering in the first turn, etc. Not to mention that in kill points mission you're basically giving your opponent 2 free kill points by drop podding your sternguard (3 if you put an IC with them) close to his positions. I think mechanized sternies are just fine. Sure, they're ~100 points more costly then a 10 men tac squad with power fist and rhino, but you get a lot for those 100 points + they can be scoring if you take pedro. People nowadays worry too much about the unit paying for its pay cost, or getting their "bang for buck" immediately. In truth, the objective is to win the battle, not to have each and every one of your expensive units kill the same number of enemy units so they can return their points. As far as I'm concerned, the sternies are one of the few killer units in SM armies. Alongside th/ss termies, they are the spearhead unit of SM armies, mainly due to their ability to deal huge amounts of damage, and their flexibility (a sternguard unit can be equipped to take on anything). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackelope King Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Honestly, these Sternguard are screaming for a Rhino, not a Drop Pod. Consider that, when you mechanize them, you've got a Rhino that can fire a pair of heavy flamers out the top. Two big, S5 templates that make the enemy extra-crispy in droves. You force your opponent into a difficult decision: does he try to destroy the Rhino (and the Sternguard inside won't even flinch from the explosion) and then face a whole squad of Sternguard who are happily in rapid-fire range on his turn, likely to destroy whatever poor guys just blew up the transport, or does he let the drive-by with two heavy flamers every turn continue? Either way, you protect your Sternguard from anti-infantry fire and assault for an extra turn and get them closer to the enemy relatively safely. And if your opponent decides to ignore the Rhino to his detriment only for you to see an opening for where the Sternguards' special ammo might help? Then just dismount and continue the massacre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal Posted June 2, 2009 Author Share Posted June 2, 2009 Ok, so 2 trains of thought so far then... 1) 5 (or 10 at a push) Salamander Sternguard in a Rhino, with 2 heavy flamers, driving round burning stuff and dakka dakka other sutff... 2) 10 Deathwatch Sternguard with a libby and no transport, using GI to move around and dakka stuff..... Choices choices... Seems 1) is a lot just to get 2 drive by templates - seems wasteful of the other 8 SGs - 5 man squad drive by seems better maybe..... 2) would look very cool in the army next to the green sallies, but it expensive - 400 pts with the libby and using GI with SGs is costly when you roll that double scatter - plus it has the same problems as DP'ing - scatter too much and your outside 12".....hm..... Also, if I using Vulkan, I can make use of Perdo's special rule to make SG scoring units... Kal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Preysight Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Consider that, when you mechanize them, you've got a Rhino that can fire a pair of heavy flamers out the top. Bloody 'ell, I hope my Salamander opponent doesn't think of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedwin183 Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 I really, really would not dump that many points into this squad. You're putting way too many points into something that WILL die the turn they show themselves. Most everyone knows now that the two scariest things in the new SM dex is the sternguard and the TH/SS termies (I definitely agree with the above poster who said this), 5 sternguard with 2 hvy flamers is 145pts. Add a drop pod and that is 180 points altogether. Its true that your opponent might hold everything in reserve and potentially screw you out of those nice, unavoidable shots you put down when your SG jump out of their pod, but unless its a dawn of war kill points mission, most people don't do this. Your odds of that game type happening is 1 in 9, and even then your opponent's deployment is at his discretion; doesn't mean he will hold everything in reserve every time. Regardless, you're making this list for all-comers, i assume, and most casual players will be victimized by this little one-trick pony. A rhino is just simply too much of a risk. It will, more likely than not, have shots thrown it's way before the rhino, itself, gets within range of doing anything. I know it goes completely against the fluff of what a sternguard should be, but their use is really as a suicide unit, (Sternguard are supposedly the troops a chapter uses when they need a whole planet cleared out.) so keeping them cheap and effective is the best option. Turn one should look like this: Deploy first turn happens: Drop your pod as close to either their nastiest unit on the board or something off by itself holding and objective. be mindful of how far you are from the table edge. Drop as close to them as you possibly can (inertial guidance system will take care of you). Pop out, rapid fire, launch the flamers, hope you killed enough so that the retaliatory fire isn't awful (but be fully prepared for it being awful). If they die, then they die. For 180 points INCLUDING their transport, it was a risk worth taking, always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 @Tedwin: If it's the only squad in a rhino, then I'd agree with you, but in my mechanised list where all but one squad has a transport (so it's 6 tanks in total), 8 sternguard with 3 combi-meltas work really well in their rhino. I'll have to try that drive-by with the heavy flamers sometime as well, seems pretty effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedwin183 Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 I mean, don't get me wrong, in a huge game or in a completely mechanized list (like the poster above me) it could definitely work. I simply don't run that many rhinos ever. Still, i've gotten sick of paying 285 points for a 10 man bare squad with a rhino, getting out to rapid fire once and then having the whole squad decimated by a charge or by tons of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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