BAH Indy GT rules!

[Long Fang]

Some good news then, this calls for ale!!!!!

 

Tho i do question what doesn't call for ale around here :lol:

 

Long Fang

[Grimtooth]

Well talked with the TO and the 13th Co will be a legal army for the tournament!

[Spacefrisian]

I find it rather strange that the EoT dex is slowly beeing banned. They sometimes say its an older dex. I just reply with "Necrons, Dark Eldar and Specewolves are older".

 

As with the other armie in them, Cadian and Eldar Variant aren't that great. You can make similar lists with their current dex and still have a better list. Legion of the damned and 13th co can be used as described.

[Blackmoor]

Well, I hope 13th Co. will not be allowed. They were released before 4th edition and they are not meant for 5th edition.

 

5th edition does a lot of things, and they are all bad.

 

#1. They were created and balanced before there was a “Run” rule.

#2. They can start with their whole army on the board. That means that in Dawn of War missions the whole 13th Co army is going up against 1 HQ and 2 Troops. That is bad, but then when you add in that they now get to start halfway across the board with their entire army, and then get a scout move, they are going to start way into their opponent’s deployment zone.

#3. But what makes the 13th Co. way to powerful is that you are going to end up with an entire assault army with the outflank ability and that is very, very, bad. Note: It does not say that they get the USR “Scout” because it was before there were such a rule, and there are no FAQs to say if they get to use the USR or not, or you use it like is says in the EoT book where they all start in the board and get a free move, and not the outflank ability.

[Ryzouken]

And I quote: "Q.Q."

 

Seriously, the 13th Co. sacrifices a lot for those two special rules. They get no transport capability whatsoever, no mobile heavy weapons, and after 2250 points literally cannot be fielded anymore thanks to the Retinues rule and the 0-1 restriction on every HQ they have. You argue that a Scout move + Run is unfair on "melee" units? Genestealers. You argue that being able to deploy your entire army in Dawn of War is unfair? A) the opponent can choose not to deploy his HQ + 2 Troops, bring his entire army on in their turn 1, and wipe the floor with the wolves :rolleyes: it's one mission of three. 1/3 chance to do... well, nothing. Hooray for that.

 

I've played the 13th, they're not crazy broken, especially if you've any clue on what they're capable of and how to avoid getting charged in turn 1. They're very much a win big or lose big army.

 

No 13th list should ever be denied at a tournament. GW has a policy of letting you use the models you make in their games. TO's should do no less.

[Grimtooth]

Well, I hope 13th Co. will not be allowed. They were released before 4th edition and they are not meant for 5th edition.

 

5th edition does a lot of things, and they are all bad.

 

#1. They were created and balanced before there was a “Run” rule.

#2. They can start with their whole army on the board. That means that in Dawn of War missions the whole 13th Co army is going up against 1 HQ and 2 Troops. That is bad, but then when you add in that they now get to start halfway across the board with their entire army, and then get a scout move, they are going to start way into their opponent’s deployment zone.

#3. But what makes the 13th Co. way to powerful is that you are going to end up with an entire assault army with the outflank ability and that is very, very, bad. Note: It does not say that they get the USR “Scout” because it was before there were such a rule, and there are no FAQs to say if they get to use the USR or not, or you use it like is says in the EoT book where they all start in the board and get a free move, and not the outflank ability.

 

Codex supercedes BRB so the USR Scout rule that allows outflank does not apply to 13th Co and that is how the TO is interpreting it for this GT.

 

Besides the other things that Ry pointed out, there is also no drop pods in a 13th Co army list, no dreads, no named special characters, and expensive units. Unless you have played as 13th Co, you really don't get a grasp of how difficult they are to play.

[Grey Mage]

*nods* On the other hand, if you know how they play, and if your good at it... Ive seen them do amazing things.

 

As another posted- win big or lose big eh? I just enjoy that any way you go, its intense.

[Stryke]

So the 13th co. don't get the outflank rule? Being using my army the wrong way then ;)

[Grimtooth]

So the 13th co. don't get the outflank rule? Being using my army the wrong way then :P

 

I have brought this up before and the TO that I spoke with has brought it up as well. The Scouts rule in the EoT codex is not an "addition" to the USR Scouts rule since the USR Scout rule was not written when EoT was written.

 

The Scouts rule in the EoT codex is a stand alone rule army rule that is very specific in how 13th Co uses the Scouts rule.

[Coverfire]

I started a thread no very long ago about this same issue. "whitewolfmxc" cleared it up for me but sending me the 4th Edition FAQ which states:

Scouts (p.34 EoT)

+ The Scouts special rule is the same as that presented in the Warhammer 40k Universal Special Rules.

+ Independent Characters mounted on Space Marine Bikes lose the Scout ability.

 

I know that this is the 4th Edition FAQ but the Scout rule hasn't changed between 4th & 5th Edition and so it sets a precedence.

 

Also note, that no one I have played in my club has objected to this rule interpretation.

 

As for Blackmoor's post about how they were released before 4th Edition and therefore should not be eligible to field, then I guess he doesn't play Space Wolves or Dark Eldar.... or Grey Knights...

[Grimtooth]

I started a thread no very long ago about this same issue. "whitewolfmxc" cleared it up for me but sending me the 4th Edition FAQ which states:

Scouts (p.34 EoT)

+ The Scouts special rule is the same as that presented in the Warhammer 40k Universal Special Rules.

+ Independent Characters mounted on Space Marine Bikes lose the Scout ability.

 

I know that this is the 4th Edition FAQ but the Scout rule hasn't changed between 4th & 5th Edition and so it sets a precedence.

 

Also note, that no one I have played in my club has objected to this rule interpretation.

 

As for Blackmoor's post about how they were released before 4th Edition and therefore should not be eligible to field, then I guess he doesn't play Space Wolves or Dark Eldar.... or Grey Knights...

 

This isn't 4th Edition. However if you want to use 4th Edition FAQ, then refer to 4th Edition BGB that does not have Outflank.

 

The Scout USR has changed from 4th to 5th. In 5th it specifically gives the Outflank special rule.

 

In a 13th Co army list, models in terminator armor and Storm Claw Bikers do not get the scout rule.

 

The Scouts special rule in the 13th Co Army list is specifically that, a special rule for the 13th Co. The complete rules for the 13th Co Scouts rule is on the Special Rules page of the 13th Co Army list. Nowhere does it direct you to either the Space Wolves codex or to be directed to the BRB for the Scouts USR.

[Coverfire]

Your argument had a lot of merit in it so I rang the only GW store in my country (hope it won't cost too much) and the guy told me that in his opinion that the Scouts special rule in the Eye of Terror was written as it was so that people could play the 13th Company for the few months before 4th Edition came out and updated that rule. He went onto say "...logic dictates that with the release on 5th edition that the 13th company will use the scouts rule from the 5th ed rulebook".

 

He went onto say that that was his opinion on the matter and that there will be many varying ideas and as long as your opponents agree to what they feel is a balanced compromise then you can pretty much play however you want to play.

 

I think that is about the best we are going to get in favour for 13th utilising the Outflank rules. I just hope that the 13th Company will keep there flavour in the upcoming codex... but that is for another thread.

 

At this point I will probably keep using the outflanking rule until the release of the codex or that my opinion is radically changed on the matter.

 

Good Gaming

 

*edit because I am a muppet and can't spell.

[Grimtooth]

Well my locals run it so I can Outflank. They consider that with everything I don't have, giving me Outflank is a must.

 

However, as it is written, the Special Rules in the 13th Co army list give you exactly what they are able to do. If at anytime it said, "refer to Warhammer 40,000 rulebook", it would be good to go to use the USR Scout rule. However, RAW is how it is laid out in the 13th Co Special Rules.

[Blackmoor]

As for Blackmoor's post about how they were released before 4th Edition and therefore should not be eligible to field, then I guess he doesn't play Space Wolves or Dark Eldar.... or Grey Knights...

 

I play all of those including SoB (but I don't play Necrons!).

 

All of those armies have a PDF FAQ that makes them 5th edition compatible, but the 13th Co. do not.

The 5th edition's FAQs

 

Again, there is a reason why the 13th Co. is not allowed at any official GW event.

 

They were updated for 4th edition (which of course is no longer available), but they did not receive an update for 5th edition. The huge difference in 5th editions "Scout" USR is of course outflank which is very different than the 4th edition one the FAQ was written for.

 

But this is not the place to get an unbiased opinion. You should post in general forums, or in the Amicus Aedes to get a better answer.

[Grimtooth]

As for Blackmoor's post about how they were released before 4th Edition and therefore should not be eligible to field, then I guess he doesn't play Space Wolves or Dark Eldar.... or Grey Knights...

 

I play all of those including SoB (but I don't play Necrons!).

 

All of those armies have a PDF FAQ that makes them 5th edition compatible, but the 13th Co. do not.

The 5th edition's FAQs

 

Again, there is a reason why the 13th Co. is not allowed at any official GW event.

 

They were updated for 4th edition (which of course is no longer available), but they did not receive an update for 5th edition. The huge difference in 5th editions "Scout" USR is of course outflank which is very different than the 4th edition one the FAQ was written for.

 

But this is not the place to get an unbiased opinion. You should post in general forums, or in the Amicus Aedes to get a better answer.

 

I have heard numerous reasons why the 13th is not allowed at any GW GT events and your points are not among them. GW announced that variant lists would not be allowed at official GTs. However they have been allowed at other GW events at the TO's discretion.

 

I am still trying to see what you think makes 13th Co game-breaking from 4th to 5th Edition?

 

Everything that you have to look to the Space Wolves codex from the 13th Co list has been FAQ for 5th Edition. True Grit, Counter-Attack, and Armory have all been FAQ in the Space Wolves 5th Edition FAQ.

 

13th Co do not get the BRB Scout USR, they get the Scouts rule as listed in their special rules entry. The Scouts rule in the special rules section of the is very clear and concise on exactly what the 13th Co can and cannot do. It doesn't tell you to refer to the USR in the BRB not one time.

[Blackmoor]

I have heard numerous reasons why the 13th is not allowed at any GW GT events and your points are not among them. GW announced that variant lists would not be allowed at official GTs. However they have been allowed at other GW events at the TO's discretion.

 

Yes, they "squated" all the non-codex lists, and stopped supporting them.

 

I am still trying to see what you think makes 13th Co game-breaking from 4th to 5th Edition?

 

Some people were arguing that they get to outflank. That is my major concern, and that would make them way to powerful. If you take that away, then I would not mind that much, and would not object to playing against them.

 

Since I have not played against them in 5th edition (of course), I can’t tell you how good they are in the current edition. Maybe we can get in a game at Empire Games one day and I can see what they can do. But off the top of my head the changes that made the army much better in 5th edition other than outflank are:

#1. I mentioned the Dawn of War scenario where they get to start half way across the board+scout move so they are already for a second turn charge.

#2. You can now turbo-boost with a scout move.

#3. You can use cheap Fenisian Wolves to screen your expensive Grey Slayers and give them a 4+ cover save.

#4. The ability to run makes the army much faster.

[Long Fang]

#1. I mentioned the Dawn of War scenario where they get to start half way across the board+scout move so they are already for a second turn charge.

#2. You can now turbo-boost with a scout move.

#3. You can use cheap Fenisian Wolves to screen your expensive Grey Slayers and give them a 4+ cover save.

#4. The ability to run makes the army much faster.

 

1# I play mech with drop pods, my standard wolves can charge on turn 2 anyway... and that includes a venerable dreadnought which 13th can't use

2# You can't turbo boost 13th company with a scout move, there scout rules specially forbid this.

3# Everyone can do this with there cheaper stuff.

4# So's everyone else

 

 

Long Fang

[Grimtooth]

I have heard numerous reasons why the 13th is not allowed at any GW GT events and your points are not among them. GW announced that variant lists would not be allowed at official GTs. However they have been allowed at other GW events at the TO's discretion.

 

Yes, they "squated" all the non-codex lists, and stopped supporting them.

 

I am still trying to see what you think makes 13th Co game-breaking from 4th to 5th Edition?

 

Some people were arguing that they get to outflank. That is my major concern, and that would make them way to powerful. If you take that away, then I would not mind that much, and would not object to playing against them.

 

Since I have not played against them in 5th edition (of course), I can’t tell you how good they are in the current edition. Maybe we can get in a game at Empire Games one day and I can see what they can do. But off the top of my head the changes that made the army much better in 5th edition other than outflank are:

#1. I mentioned the Dawn of War scenario where they get to start half way across the board+scout move so they are already for a second turn charge.

#2. You can now turbo-boost with a scout move.

#3. You can use cheap Fenisian Wolves to screen your expensive Grey Slayers and give them a 4+ cover save.

#4. The ability to run makes the army much faster.

 

#1. Only if the 13th Co wins the roll for deployment will they be able to position at edge of deployment zone. The counter is to hold back forces from deploying and move on from table edge on first turn away from the already deployed and moved 13th Co. It is a 6' table edge, the 13th is not fast enough to cover deployment along that length without attacking piecemeal which is not a good idea with the 13th Co ever.

#2. Per Codex EoT: Models in Terminator armor, and any packs they lead do not get the free move, and neither do Storm Claw biker packs (due to the noise they make.) So no turbo-boosting scout move with bikes.

#3. With a 6+ save, the wolves are not that long lasting of a 4+ cover save as you think and they are not fearless to shooting morale checks.

#4. Regular Space Wolves have run while only being just slightly less close combaty as 13th Co, but being a whole lot more supported in terms of tanks, dreads, drop pods, TDA, named characters, and more unit choices/options.

 

If you get a chance check out my 1750pt list in the Army Lists and compare it to any 1750pt SW list and see the difference.

[Ryzouken]

Also, giving the 13th Outflank is not overpowered, RAW issues aside.

 

Fast Edit to qualify the above: Plenty of armies charge on turn 2, without the use of a reserve roll, with a variety of units designed to either wipe what they charge or tie it up until it's no longer a problem. Outflanking 13th would do, hmm, pretty much the same except we'd have to roll for reserves and table edge. Don't like it? Don't deploy. If you're going second then the wolves walk on table, look around while scratching themselves, and die to YOUR reserve rolls.

 

 

Are we really trying to argue that a splinter army of a 10 year old codex is broken now? Put your big girl panties on and get over it. Rocket Surgery this ain't.

[Blackmoor]

You said it...a lot of armies have units, not entire armies that scout. That is a huge difference.

 

Every argument that tries to draw a parallel fails. Genestealers are a lot less powerful than they were in 5th edition do to the rending nerf, also they die to bolter fire, and they are only a part of your opponent’s army. Drop pods only get half of their army on the table turn #2, and then trickle on after that. Unlike in the Dawn of War scenario 13th Co. start with one of the best assault armies in the game set up for a second turn charge.

 

If it is not that powerful as you seem to think, then just play your 13th Co. as regular Space Wolves.

[Ryzouken]

Feh, sold off my Wulfen company back in the middle of 4th. I had turn 1 and 2 assaults back then too, Fenrisian Wolves hit, then the Wulfen hit, and anything left standing got a third wave of Storm Claws led by characters with 7-9 power fist attacks. No difference in 5th (Run? Both Wolves and Wulfen had the equivalency of the run rule pre 5th. Run only benefits Storm Claws and Grey Slayers, if you're taking them.)

 

Ig outflank Infantry Platoons and Valks/Vendetta with any kind of troopers loaded up (including Grey Knights which, correct me if I'm wrong, positively spank the 13th in CC). Multiple units outflanking. Single Army. Superior CC to the 13th (possibly)

Tyranids can outflank anything that can get Scuttlers. Off the top of my head that's Stealers, but I've not picked up a nid codex in 2 years so I'm not certain about other options.

Orks have superior Outflank with Grotsnik's boys, beyond that they're pretty poor on the whole outflank thing.

Marines can outflank a few things IIRC, scout bikes, Khan led units, and can fall back on drop pods if need be.

Dark Eldar are funny...

Necrons fail at life

Eldar might be able to outflank, can't remember

Not conversant with the new Chaos dex

 

There's a few armies (with IG being a sterling example) that can outflank multiple units (if you really need to, not sure why you'd want to) including some nasty CC elements. IG in particular can outflank three squads of Grey Knights in power armour and two units of Grey Knight Terminators (if you accept that they can fit in Valkyries) along with an Infantry Platoon.

 

I'll reiterate, outflanking 13th Co (RAW issues aside) is not a big issue. There are counter strategies and it's not an "I win button," especially when one considers the turn(s) the enemy gets to maneuver before you outflank.

[Long Fang]

Drop pods only get half of their army on the table turn #2, and then trickle on after that.

 

Thats why you don't take all drop pods :D. I take 3, 2 come down first turn, one venerable dreadnought, one drop pod of doom (4 assault cannons and more invul's than you can shake a stick at) the third is bought for a big unit of hunters which can come down turn 2+ or just setup leavin an empty drop pod. The rest is mounted in rhinos or long range fire support. In rapid fire range with rhino troops and in combat with drop pod of doom plus venerable dread turn 2. Generally win turn roll thanx to ven dread so get to dictate terms

 

So in combat or close shooting range (for shooty units) turn 2, plus the drop pods are normally deeper in the enemy lines than the 13th would be.

 

If it is not that powerful as you seem to think, then just play your 13th Co. as regular Space Wolves.

That would kind of defeat the whole purpose of taking the time to model and paint a 13th company force.

 

Long Fang

[Blackmoor]

There's a few armies (with IG being a sterling example) that can outflank multiple units (if you really need to, not sure why you'd want to) including some nasty CC elements. IG in particular can outflank three squads of Grey Knights in power armour and two units of Grey Knight Terminators (if you accept that they can fit in Valkyries) along with an Infantry Platoon.

 

I'll reiterate, outflanking 13th Co (RAW issues aside) is not a big issue. There are counter strategies and it's not an "I win button," especially when one considers the turn(s) the enemy gets to maneuver before you outflank.

 

You say how IG can outflank with 3 Grey Knight squads in Power Armor, but not only can 13th Co do it with squads that cost less, but they can do it units that are much better than the Grey Knights in assault (Grey Slayers), and they can do it with an entire CC army.

 

If you spend that much in GK in PA, you still have half your army tied up with HQ and troops that will not support them, unlike the 13th Co.

 

If it is not that powerful as you seem to think, then just play your 13th Co. as regular Space Wolves.

That would kind of defeat the whole purpose of taking the time to model and paint a 13th company force.

 

Long Fang

 

You are not going to have an army after October anyways, so it is time to let it go.

[Long Fang]

You are not going to have an army after October anyways, so it is time to let it go.

 

 

I assume then that you have conceded the point as you have resorted to trying to get our backs up :rolleyes:

 

/me leaves to find some ale.

[Grimtooth]

You are not going to have an army after October anyways, so it is time to let it go.

 

 

I assume then that you have conceded the point as you have resorted to trying to get our backs up :geek:

 

/me leaves to find some ale.

 

alex2

 

And still don't understand why you keep bringing up Outflank. 13th Co does not get Outflank, period.