Aidoneus Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 I've been flipping through the Marine codex and looking for interesting combinations to try to make use of. I found Lysander, and his Bolter Drill ability, and instantly thought of how powerful that could be with Sternguard. Naturally, the thought of Sternguard led my mind to Kantor. Simply put, with the two of them you could get Scoring Sternguard, one squad of which twin-links all its weapons! It didn't stop there though. See, the usual problem with using two named characters is that their Chapter Tactics interfere, and one ends up being wasted. However, both Lysander and Kantor grant Stubborn (Kantor's also includes Sternguard Scoring), so you don't lose anything by overriding Lysander's with Kantor's. Then there's just the fun parts. You get an Orbital Strike. You get a CC beast. You get a bunch more attacks (including, potentially, on that CC beast). You get Bolster Defenses. The problem though is expense. The two HQs together cost 375pts, the two Sternguard Squads (one for each) and drop pods cost another 570pts base, and your two troops probably won't be less than 280pts together (that for two 10-man sniper scout squads, tacticals would be more). So that's essentially 1225pts MINIMUM investment, and with support units, upgrades, etc you almost certainly couldn't afford this in less than a 2000pt game. So I was wondering, does anyone else thing this is a worthwhile idea? It seems so powerful, even if so expensive. I would probably only play it at the 2000+pt level. Any thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170168-kantor-lysander/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 I think it still means far too many points spent in HQ choices plus a heavy investment in Elites as well. Sternguard are good but they still die as quickly to gunfire as normal tacticals plus if you are thinking of taking Lysander then the only effective mode of transport for them is drop pods. This leaves them in the face of the enemy ready for a royal kicking, trust me on this I ran Lysander and Stern in a pod for about 3 months and they never survive past turn 3 so there is no point in making them scoring. The combo seems powerful but easily countered with a lot of gunfire or power weapons. You cannot combat squad the Stern which Lysander arrives with because that reduces his bonus and this means that you will effefctively waste a chance to combat squad and take out two targets on drop. Using Lysander is usually good enough for me, he makes my Terminators shine and he will make my 4 Heavy Bolter Dev Squad kick ass when I assemble it. I see your point about not wasting the chapter tactics but you still have to build your army around Kantor to make him worth while and whilst this does mean that Lysander still gets to put a mean improvement on one of those squads it does leave little room for any support. Wan Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170168-kantor-lysander/#findComment-2009691 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twin .44 Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 I'd have to disagree with waaanial here. It's worth it in a big enough game, at least to me. instead of running two sternguard, I run one 9 man squad and stick them all in a drop pod. It's insane, but then they get extra combat by thunder hammer/storm shield terminators. I've noticed to run sternguard effectively you really need extra support. Drop some ordnance down and pin units, rip them to shreds with long range bullets and then let the sternguard handle the it's deadly weapons. and also, don't deepstrike behind enamy lines. never let your men get cut off and make sure something can get access to it if it gets in trouble. this is why sternguard die so easily is because everyone expects them to hold up the army. They aren't movie marines I've caused some massive damage in games with just kantor and nine Sternguarg in a rhino. they do even better together. but of course don't even bother in a less than 2K game. Try this one on for size. It's raining Bolters!!!! Get your sternguard drop pod in the middle of the field, Rush in with your rhino tactical squads. dump every payload that you can and fire every bolter you have on one single squad. combined with the sternguard special weapons, the unit will most likely die. Sternguard - ensuring unit death since 2008. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170168-kantor-lysander/#findComment-2009723 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiserstole20 Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Using Lysander is usually good enough for me, he makes my Terminators shine... Wan I agree - the re-rolls on storm bolters is great and he can take a couple of lascannon shots to the face for the terminators, preserving their effectiveness. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170168-kantor-lysander/#findComment-2009793 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 One of my regular opponents at the local club used both lysander and kantor in the same list. It didn't really work out, mainly because it's 375 pts spent on two models. Way too expensive. :/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170168-kantor-lysander/#findComment-2009820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skoby Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 I've seen it work before, in a 750pt doubles tournament we had a 3 way doubles final, including one team which had Lysander+sternguard+drop pod and the other had Kantor with honour guard (which worked really well). Lysander, 10 sternguard and a Deathwind drop pod pretty much destroyed my partners ork army, whilst their troops choices just acted as a gunline and Pedro+honour guard did huge amounts of damage in combat. In the end the 3rd team won tho due to the other team picking on me and them being left almost untouched (I had last go in the first turn so at that point all we could do was defend against the cheesy death coming at us. So yeah it can work and it is a devestating combo to be hit by but it is very expensive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170168-kantor-lysander/#findComment-2009903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 Yeah, that's kinda what I figured. Seemed like a really good idea, until I started writing the list and calculating points. Out of curiosity, has anyone tried Lysander with a squad of Grey Knights? I think a big problem with trying to use the Bolter Drill rule is that you're spending 200pts to twin-link BS4 weapons, which get tons of shots already. I just can't really envision a situation where it's worth doing so. Seems like Lysander is just a CC thug, and Bolter Drill is just something they threw in to be fluffy, without burdening him with a legitimately useful rule that might raise his points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170168-kantor-lysander/#findComment-2010323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiserstole20 Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 I think a big problem with trying to use the Bolter Drill rule is that you're spending 200pts to twin-link BS4 weapons, which get tons of shots already. I just can't really envision a situation where it's worth doing so. Seems like Lysander is just a CC thug, and Bolter Drill is just something they threw in to be fluffy, without burdening him with a legitimately useful rule that might raise his points. He's a CC monster for sure, but I think he really makes shooty terminators excel. The bolter drill is nice against hordes - you'll wind up with around 4.5 more hits out of 20 dice thrown each round (10 Terminators). Just re-rolling all your misses is a huge psychological factor. Add in 4 blasts from 2 cyclone missile launchers and it's enough to break some horde units in a single round of shooting. The biggest factor he provides shooty terminators is protection against AP1 and AP2. The 3+ invulnerable is great in a unit of 5+ invulnerable saves, as is the 'Eternal Warrior' rule. He can eat a couple of lascannon shots and possibly not even take a wound. If he does take a wound, oh well you have 2 more. It keeps the 40-point models on the board longer. Finally, it creates a lot of bad options for your opponent. Do I try to ignore the unit and get shot up while they advance slowly to smash me into pieces? Do I attack in CC and take my chances against Lysander and a crap-ton of power fists? Just make sure you take out those vindicators first... they will overwhelm the single 3+ save of Lysander. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170168-kantor-lysander/#findComment-2010400 Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 If he does take a wound, oh well you have 2 more. Actually if he does take a wound he has 3 more! Lysander is a beast and I disagree that his greatest strength lies in being a CC monster. His greatest strength to th army as a whole is the Stubborn rule, second place is his ability to reroll all bolter based weapons and then third is his ability to receive and give a lot of pain in combat. This is because being a CC monster means that your area of influence on the game is very limited, he can only engage units in combat one at a time and can only do so within 12" of model starting point (unless mounted in a landraider). However the effect of stubborn is everywhere and it turns your force into a massive roadblock whilst simultaneously making you more effective against Psychic Screaming Nids and the new Psyker squad in IG. His ranged abilities are more than made up for when you add him to a bolter based unit. The terminators spring to mind as well as Sternguard but less thought of tactics are putting him with 4 heavy bolter Devs or shifting him from one beat up unit to another full tactical to increase its shooting effectiveness. Wan Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170168-kantor-lysander/#findComment-2011017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiserstole20 Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 However the effect of stubborn is everywhere and it turns your force into a massive roadblock whilst simultaneously making you more effective against Psychic Screaming Nids and the new Psyker squad in IG.Wan Stubborn is great, especially as you say against the 'Nids Psychic Choir lists and the new IG Psykers. I :wub: Lysander. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170168-kantor-lysander/#findComment-2011062 Share on other sites More sharing options...
earthen Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 i dunno, it seems fun. I could, however, see them dropping in, destroying one ork loota squad to the man, only to have 2 other loota squads turn their guns and rattle off 60+str 7 shots in their direction. Lysander is hella fun.. Not really my choice for competition (vulkan just makes killing things wayy too easy) but definitely a fun card to pull once and awhile to keep the xenos on their toes! (or claws) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170168-kantor-lysander/#findComment-2016502 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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