Do Chaos Space Marines recruit?

[cathar the great]

That sounds like a great utopia. I imagine Chaos Warbands like this anyway. Small squads of Chaos Marines supported by armies of traitor guardsmen and mutants as meatshields.

 

Do I think it will happen?

 

Still got Apocalypse and House rules, though.

[Draeden]

Best you can do is stick Iron Hand Stracken from the new Guard Codex in but use a Chaos Marine model done up to represent him to have a Traitor Astartes led warband in normal games.

[Incubi Lord]

The Alpha Legion put hypnotic suggestions into the minds of the gangs the Emperors Swords recruited from. 3 centuries later they attacked the Emperors Swords and used psychic attacks that triggered the hidden commands in the minds of the marines. In the ensuing chaos some joined the Alpha Legion and others became renegades. The Alpha Legion took control of the entire chapters gene-seed.

[Rain]

Yes, Chaos Legionnaires should be Elites choices, and Chosen should be an HQ with the ability to make any/all chosen a champion with wargear options as per the last codex, though they can't be your compulsory HQ so you would have to take a lord/DP and then could take a squad of chosen as your second HQ. Troops in a chaos list really should be cultists, mutants, and daemons as they undoubtedly outnumber their Astartes masters by a great degree. Why GW doesn't do this I have no clue, especially as it would help separate loyal marines from Chaos and would fit the fluff.

 

If anything the EoT campaign Lost and the Damned list better represented a fluffy Chaos marine army than the current Chaos marine list, but for some reason LatD were scrapped. ;)

[ferrum proeliator]

Yes, Chaos Legionnaires should be Elites choices, and Chosen should be an HQ with the ability to make any/all chosen a champion with wargear options as per the last codex, though they can't be your compulsory HQ so you would have to take a lord/DP and then could take a squad of chosen as your second HQ. Troops in a chaos list really should be cultists, mutants, and daemons as they undoubtedly outnumber their Astartes masters by a great degree. Why GW doesn't do this I have no clue, especially as it would help separate loyal marines from Chaos and would fit the fluff.

 

If anything the EoT campaign Lost and the Damned list better represented a fluffy Chaos marine army than the current Chaos marine list, but for some reason LatD were scrapped. :P

 

I think the LatD were a one off in '03 for Eye of Terror. What a campaign that was haha!!

 

Still, if you look at some of the Imperial Armour lists (I think Siege of Vraks), show Astartes as elites and guardsmen as troops. Mind you, they'd have to make the Astartes so much tougher to keep up with loyalist elites (veterans). And our guardsmen would need to span the difference between guard and space marines. Our guard should really be as tough as guardsmen veterans, and our astartes as strong as sternguard vets (min.)

Furthermore, to expand upon the idea of chosen being HQ. Perhaps they should count as a retinue or a "command squad" but with benefits (infiltrate etc.)

 

EDIT: Just looked at IA 5. LatD has basically been replaced with "Heretics and Renegades." In essence an imperial guard list with renegade astartes as elites.

[Raulmichile]

Still, if you look at some of the Imperial Armour lists (I think Siege of Vraks), show Astartes as elites and guardsmen as troops. Mind you, they'd have to make the Astartes so much tougher to keep up with loyalist elites (veterans). And our guardsmen would need to span the difference between guard and space marines. Our guard should really be as tough as guardsmen veterans, and our astartes as strong as sternguard vets (min.)

Furthermore, to expand upon the idea of chosen being HQ. Perhaps they should count as a retinue or a "command squad" but with benefits (infiltrate etc.)

 

I see your point regarding chosen vs marine veterans. But I don't see the point of traitor guardsmen being the same as Imperial Guard vets. They should be every bit as good (or bad) as any other Imperial Guard regiment.

[Rain]

If anything cultists should be more like penal legion than regular guardsmen as they are fanatics and generally a few teef short a squig. The reason I said chosen should be an HQ is that they have been described as themselves having ruled planets etc so I think they need to be between a regular marine and a lord and not just a marine with 1 higher ld and a few extra weapon options.

[ferrum proeliator]

If anything cultists should be more like penal legion than regular guardsmen as they are fanatics and generally a few teef short a squig. The reason I said chosen should be an HQ is that they have been described as themselves having ruled planets etc so I think they need to be between a regular marine and a lord and not just a marine with 1 higher ld and a few extra weapon options.

 

I see this point. I'm thinking of DoW where frankly cultists were crap in small numbers; in a mob, unstoppable. Perhaps, for once, we could outnumber our loyalist counterparts.

 

Astartes as elites - make em as strong as space marine vets.

 

Chosen - HQ - but much tougher.

 

Also, this would pretty much illustrate the rise to power in a chaos force (and recruitment process). Start as a normal human, fighting for the wrong cause. Have geneseed implanted and become an astartes. Much stronger than normal space marines thanks to the millenia of service of your "brothers", and eventually be chosen to serve in the retinue of a Lord, with the opportnuity to stab him in the back and become just as powerful.

[Requiemnex]

Not to forget that there are also humans who can become blessed enough by the Gods to become of equal statue as a normal Marine. All you have to do then is slap some power armor on him.

 

TDA

 

Then with a little bit of magick and some fairy dust.... You could get a bloodthirster capable of splitting librarians in half.. :lol:

[TheDarkApostle]

Not to forget that there are also humans who can become blessed enough by the Gods to become of equal statue as a normal Marine. All you have to do then is slap some power armor on him.

 

TDA

 

Then with a little bit of magick and some fairy dust.... You could get a bloodthirster capable of splitting librarians in half.. ;)

Correct indeed ;)

 

TDA

[The WarpGhost]

Simple answer is, CSM forces get their manpower from wherever it suits their background and the player using them. I personally have always found the idea of masses of 10k year old veterans even after costant wars and adding in hand-wavy arguments about' time flows strangely in the Warp' to be pretty absurd. So in my view, only Chosen and champions really represent the original veterans (and even then only a proportion of them), with others being recruited in by various means. Some people however think the opposite, as this thread reveals. It must be said that the fluff supports both arguments, both exclusively and at the same time. So whatever works for you, really does work in a wider cotext.

[Lay]

Fabius Bile, has been creating/cloning them for the different war bands from geneseed taken from fallen loyalists,

 

I recall there being a scrap of fluff in WD old 'Heroes and Villains of the 41st Millenium' articles, which once touched upon the histroy of Fabius Bile. There was one page which read like it was an excerpt from one of his books. Now this excerpt dealt with him mentioning his unlocking of the Emperor's Secrets of the Geneseed.

 

It also mentioned a womb of some kind, which would help 'create new Marines...' At the time I brushed it off as metaphorical. But recently a friend of mine (Pwcca, as he's known here) told me about one of the Ultramarine Novels (I'm not sure which one, but involved the character Uriel Ventris.

According to said WD article, the womb thing is some kind of daemon which was summoned by Fabius Bile, whereas the so called "Daemoncubala" from the novel "Dead Sky, Black Sun" are bloated women which are exclusively used by the Iron Warriors (maybe even a single Warsmith). Iirc the Daemoncubala are no more thanks to Uriel Ventris.

 

And since you mentioned that Heroes and Villains WD article:

"Each of the Legions has now nominated aspirants seeking to throw themselves upon our mercy in the vain hope that we may deem them worthy to join our ranks. Those loyal to the shrunken corpse on Terra still cling to their own processes by which perhaps one in a hundred neophytes may survive to become a battle brother. The methods I have developed over the last millennia are more stringent, for we must be pure in our hatred and hard of heart, body and soul. Fewer than one in every thousand survive, and I strive each day to lengthen these odds still further. ~ Fabius Bile

 

- Slaves to Darkness:

"The Traitor Legions have retained their old Chapters, now dedicated to the service of the Chaos Powers rather than the Imperium. They have also maintained the ancient technology of gene-seeding and adaptive surgery. The children needed to become new Legionnaires have been bred from slave stock and a variety of Humans captured on Legion raids into the Imperium"

 

- Renegades (an expansion book for the EPIC scale "Space Marine" game) states that, due to the time-distorting nature of the warp, there is a constant stream of fresh traitor ships from immediately after the heresy arriving in the Eye of Terror.

 

- Codex Chaos (2E)/White Dwarf 199:

"Within the Eye the Traitor Legions fight constant wars amongst themselves for gene-seed, slaves, resources or martial honor. New Chaos Space Marines are recruited from the most dangerous heretics that are drawn into the Eye by the lure of Chaos, or else selected from the masses of slave-warriors who fight eternal battles for the amusement of the Dark Gods. The implantation of recruits is a brutal affair, quite unlike the carefully measured program of development used by Imperial Space Marines. Whether the candidate lives or dies is left to the will of the Chaos Gods. Initiation rites are similarly debased and savage, ensuring that only the toughest initiates ever survive."

 

- Iirc. the meager 3E Codex had nothing on the subject.

 

- Index Astartes: Iron Warriors states that "Suitable recruits are taken (willingly and unwillingly) to Medrengard where they are selected periodically by Warsmiths for their Grand Companies and subjected to ordeals until they prove themselves worthy."

 

- In Index Astartes: Alpha Legion, the ever reliable Inquisitor Kravin theorizes that the Alphas are actively recruiting somewhere in the Imperium.

 

- The 3.5 Codex implies that the Legions recruit with the story of a young Chaos tribesman, rather than outright stating it. (It has a similar ambiguous approach concerning other aspects such as Chaos fleets and Abaddon not being a Daemon Prince)

 

- 4E: nothing (boo)

[firestorm40k]

Interesting discussion, I like to think it's some of each; if it helps any here's the reasoning as regards to my diy Chaos Marines, the Legion of Taurus:

 

Firstly, they're made up of former Loyalist Marines turned Traitor.

In their background, a couple of hundred years before they started their attacks in Imperial space, almost 2 companies of Astral Sharks Space Marines, sent to placate Cultist uprisings on 3 Imperial Worlds, are swallowed in a warp storm. To cut a long story short, there-in they are turned to Chaos, in fealty to the greater daemon Tauran.

 

Next, they are bolstered by turning Loyalists to their cause, or by taking the gene-seed of Marines they defeat.

In my fluff, I've had them turn Red Templars and Marines Malevolent to their cause, as well ast taking the gene-seed of several other chapters (mostly diy ones that I've thought of myself or belong to members of my local gaming group).

 

Finally, they recruit new initiates from the chaos-held worlds engulfed in the warp storm that first took those Astral Sharks Marines.

One world was a feral one (where the cult originated, and has a population of mutant-beastmen), one an agri-world, the other a hive-world. I think between feral tribal warriors, savage gangers, and other unsavoury elements of the fallen populace of these worlds, there's plenty of potential recruits to fill their ranks.

 

Seeing as the next instalment of their background will see Fabius Bile accompany them on a raid of a Fortress containing one Chapter's gene-seed depository, there'll most likely be plenty of Legion of Taurus marines to smite the Imperium for a while yet :D

[Sevendaemons]

Hope this hasn't already been touched on but I just read one of the stories in the "heroes of the space marines" book and Huron Blackheart basically held a massive planet battle/tourmament where if a chapter captain kills another captain and such he absorbs the ranks of the fallen marine. I believe the story as well as the event is called the skull harvest. The Iron Warriors ended up with something like 30,000 absorbed marines by the end of the harvest. Pretty awesome.

[Lord Mad Balrog]

- 4E: nothing (boo)

In the very back of the 4th Ed. Chaos Codex (pg. 102), it gives an accounting of a raid conducted by the Red Corsairs, where two Terminators are looking for "salvage" - including living, breathing humans. I get the strong feeling that they enslave populations from raided planets and then select their recruits from that population. Since they still operate in roughly the same areas where their homeworld was, they should have a moderate chance of finding some that are gene-seed compatible.

Also, in "Storm of Iron", the second Iron Warriors novel, it is revealed that the Iron Warriors steal or destroy a HUGE amount of the Imperial Fists' gene-seed sealed up in a Fortress World. The Fists are apparently their rival Chapter, but they're willing to make new Iron Warriors out of them (for example, the protagonist of the novel, Honsou, is supposed to be of Imperial Fist lineage).

And, yes, "The Skull Harvest" in the Heroes of the Space Marines anthology, pgs. 9-51, is a good example of how they recruit already-made Marines. Chaos fights itself almost constantly (only united under such causes as the Black Crusades), so the losers typically get absorbed into the victor's warband... if they let any losers survive. Keep in mind that while the gene-seed is polluted and mutated, it's still gene-seed, so it can be harvested like in any Loyalist Chapter.

[Khaeron]

i thought that such was the way of the warp and chaos itself that, you could kill a CSM yesterday and he will be reborn/reappear on a battlefield last week. i can't for the life of me remember where i read this!

[verbel]

I still prescribe to the idea that most are still veterans of the Heresy. Think about it, each Legion varied in number, some were larger then others... Ultramarines spring to mind for the Loyalist half. Sons of Horus were even larger then Gulliman's boys, I'm pretty sure the Death Guard had a larger Legion then others, and the World Eaters would HAVE to have a good size due to Angron constantly just throwing them into frays with wreckless abandon.

 

Even after each Legion purged themselves of those still loyal to the Emperor, they still had at least 75% capacity when they reached Isstvan V. This battle was a pretty decisive victory and I see the Traitor Legions undergoing minimal loss.

 

From there, they hit Terra itself. Now this is where it varies. The World Eaters suffered incredible losses, but if you go by the idea they had a larger then average Legion, then they may have lost an additional 25% - 40% during the Siege on the Palace. Iron Warriors didn't suffer much loss at Terra, and even in the Iron Cage they pretty much mopped the floor with the 'Fists.

 

Sons of Horus also took a large amount of losses, as from what I gather they were right in there with the World Eaters, as were the Death Guard. By this time, however, Death Guard were already more or less all Plague Marines. Less losses by that fact alone. Thousand Sons had lost a small amount on Prospero when Space Wolves attacked, but thanks to Ahriman in the near future that wouldn't really matter anyhow.

 

So you've got World Eaters down by 64% since Isstvan III, Sons of Horus probably down 40-50%, Death Guard down perhaps 30-40%, and the others less so. Emperor's Children weren't all that large to begin with, but they more or less avoided the Palace during the attack on Terra. Alpha Legion was minimal in their attacks out in space, as were Night Lords.

 

So here we are... World Eaters may still have around 3,000 troops, the others more so. Most Legions retreat into the Eye of Terror, where time itself is irrelevant. Where one man could feel as though he's actually been in there for the full 10,000 years, to others it may only be a century or a year, perhaps even a day. Who knows? Of course there's inter-Legionary warring there too, but we'll pretend that those don't count for many losses at all. Also, as I've said before, there's theoretically still ships arriving in the Eye that to them have just left the battle on Terra.

 

Now come to the present. I can see Night Lords mainly being replaced due to the fact that they pretty much operate outside of the Maelstrom, the same goes for Alpha Legion. The other 7 Legions will still have the numbers of, at the very least, 2 whole Loyalist chapters of the present 40K timeline. That's at the very least. It must also be said that some, such as the World Eaters, Sons of Horus (now Black Legion), and Emperor's Children, have gone their own separate ways for one reason or another.

 

The Thousand Sons aren't really even a living Legion anymore, with the exception of their Sorcerers who do, in fact, date back to Great Crusade times. The Death Guard, Iron Warriors, and Word Bearers have still kept their Pre-Heresy formations, so they're still in a sense actual Legions.

 

I do see the Traitor Legions recruiting from Renegade Chapters every now and then, but as shown in Storm of Iron, they would be looked down upon, especially if those Renegade's Geneseed was that of a rival Primarch. But for the most part I still believe that they're still bolstering their original numbers. Truthfully, if you think of how an actual Chaos planetary invasion works, there's very little actual Astartes present. Perhaps 200 at most, the majority of the attack being carried out by hundreds upon thousands upon millions of Traitor Guard, Mutants, Renegades, and Daemons. As I've said in the past, have a look at how the FOC works in IA:6. That's most likely how an actual force would be. A large majority being regular humans, a small number being Legionnaires. Just throw some daemons in for good measure.

 

Phew! Alright, I'm done now.

 

 

Most of this makes sence to me, except the DeathGuard portion. I believe they were stuck in the warp during the siege on terra. ,The below is quoted from the 40k Lexicanum, but I believe the Index Astartes I have says the same thing.

 

"When Horus led his forces against Earth and the Emperor, the Death Guard's First Captain, Calas Typhon (now known as Typhus), killed the Navigator of their capital ship. Pretending that they were still loyal to the Emperor, Typhon led the Chapter's Fleet into the Warp but instead of going to Holy Terra to defend the Imperium, the ships became trapped and unable to return to Real Space. The Destroyer Hive flooded the ship while they were trapped in the Warp. The stinking pestilence flooded the gut and distended the flesh, while the Marines were blacked out the Destroyer Hive swarmed over them and laid eggs inside the sores of the Marines. Craving salvation, the Death Guard called upon Nurgle to help them. Nurgle corrupted them beyond measure, transforming them into the grotesque warriors they are now. Typhon then inherited the Destroyer Hive: having already sacrificed his soul to Nurgle. The flies entered Typhon and thus Typhus, Herald and Champion of Nurgle, was born. "

 

 

Ah nevermind I stand corrected it says later that they did take part once the assualt took place. I wonder how I missed that.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Keep in mind that while the gene-seed is polluted and mutated, it's still gene-seed, so it can be harvested like in any Loyalist Chapter.

 

That, and some Legions still have relatively pure geneseed, like the Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, and the Night Lords. The Night Lords geneseed is even said to be practically mutation-free, other than the inherent eye mutation, and the supposed psychological.

[Spareknikov]

Keep in mind that while the gene-seed is polluted and mutated, it's still gene-seed, so it can be harvested like in any Loyalist Chapter.

 

That, and some Legions still have relatively pure geneseed, like the Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, and the Night Lords. The Night Lords geneseed is even said to be practically mutation-free, other than the inherent eye mutation, and the supposed psychological.

 

Don't forget our clear complexion! :)

[IronWinds]

Thats from not taking your armor off :D .

 

 

I like the idea.... chaos did it. Whenever something doesn't make sense in 40k(which is a lot), we just say chaos did it.

 

You've got your own geneseed. Stolen geneseed. People being blessed till they become basically marines. Look in the EoT codex. Big mutants were more powerful than space marines, so what would that make a medium sized mutant? Power armor size, thats what.

 

 

And chaos warbands should be mostly servants and a few chaos marines. The LatD rules were the best at representing chaos. And the seige of vraks rules are decent. Some of the wordngs are bad. For instance if a enforcer joins a squad and they fail a leadership test he kills the champion, and then they auto-pass. Ok what happens next time they fail a ld check.... and what happens if he joins mutants who don't have a champion.... and does champion include exhalted champion.... because I'm afraid a single shot from a pistol is not going to kill that guy(basically a toned down chaos lord). I would like the old LatD rules back, or even something similar. I have a lot of mutants who want to see the battlefield.

[renegadewarp]

Keep in mind that while the gene-seed is polluted and mutated, it's still gene-seed, so it can be harvested like in any Loyalist Chapter.

 

That, and some Legions still have relatively pure geneseed, like the Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, and the Night Lords. The Night Lords geneseed is even said to be practically mutation-free, other than the inherent eye mutation, and the supposed psychological.

 

Don't forget our clear complexion! :)

Night lords- Pale Psychopathes immune to mutation who can see in the dark? "Let play tag with knives in the dark"

 

 

 

 

lol...

 

love it.

[The_Crippster]

Night lords- Pale Psychopathes immune to mutation who can see in the dark? "Let play tag with knives in the dark"

 

 

 

 

lol...

 

love it.

 

 

more like "Lets play tag with some non-nightlords with knives in the dark"

[Trel]

i thought that such was the way of the warp and chaos itself that, you could kill a CSM yesterday and he will be reborn/reappear on a battlefield last week. i can't for the life of me remember where i read this!

 

I had heard this as well. It was actually when playing my first game of 40k, where my opponent claimed that his Iron Warriors weren't being killed, they were just being 'sent home'.

 

I was tempted to call 'horsefeathers' but I was a rookie and kept my own counsel.

 

I'm not inclined to think that any one answer is the right one rather than a combination of all the factors listed, because all of them make sense in a smaller scale.

 

- Astartes are effectively immortal so they're only going to die when they're actually killed.

- The Warp does have it's funny time-kufc / reality-kufc thing going on

- They probably do recruit from inside and outside the Eye of Terror

- They've probably inducted some of the souls of their fallen brothers into daemons and subsequently fit them with some armor. (That would explain the 'sent-home' argument.)

 

The one thing I can't imagine is that a Legion would ever allow just a regular traitor Marine to join them and wear their colors. They're not OG. I'm sure they appreciate more bodies for the cause as much as they appreciate any cultist, but really, it's their Long War, and not these Johnny-Come-Latelys'.