How can you use Jump Marines effectively?

[Pigeons]

mind if i jump in here and ask about the effectiveness of my chaos raptors?

 

 

i was intending to field this:

 

 

10 raptors:

aspiring champ with lightning claws, meltabombs, icon of slaanesh and two meltas

 

 

10 raptors:

aspiring champ with lightning claws, meltabombs, icon of slaanesh and two flamers

 

 

one unit for anti-tank/assault, one for pure assault.

 

 

sound viable?

 

 

 

if anyone's interested with how they fit into the rest of my army, the full army list is here:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=170034

 

 

thanks for any thoughts you give :P

[Koremu]

Fun with numbers: Assault Squads are actually better at shooting than they are at close combat.

 

Assault Squad shooting vs. T4;

8 Bolt Pistols (8 shots, 5.33 hits, 2.66 wounds)

2 Flamers (assume 12 hits total, 6 wounds)

 

8.66 pre-armour wounds. All at AP5.

 

 

Assault Squad CC vs. WS4 T4 (assuming the assault squad get to charge)

25 normal attacks (12.5 hits, 6.25 wounds)

3 Power Fist attacks (1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds)

 

7.5 pre-armour wounds, only 1.25 with armour bypass

 

 

 

No matter what happens, and what armour the target may have, the shooting will always do more damage than the assault....

[Pigeons]

but can't they shoot and then assault in the same phase anyway?

 

 

 

sorry if that's a stupid question, i've yet to play an actual game, so my grasp of the rules isn't the best.

 

 

but since both bolt pistols and meltas are assault weapons, doesn't that mean you can fire them all and then assault too?

[Koremu]

Oh yes, of course. But the point is that the majority of their wounds caused will be from Shooting. This means that they aren't going to rack up an amazing combat resolution bonus, which can be an issue.

[Balog]

If you're fielding Vulkan I'd imagine the 2 flamers would be even more effective.

 

I like the idea of using these as a react force, advancing behind a landraider to support your termies when they pop out.

[Koremu]

If you're fielding Vulkan I'd imagine the 2 flamers would be even more effective.

 

I like the idea of using these as a react force, advancing behind a landraider to support your termies when they pop out.

Indeed, that would be a hell of a punch.

 

It isn't all bad them being so effective with shooting, either. Against high Initiative enemies who are weak in some way to shooting and powerful hand to hand opponents (Howling Banshees, Genestealers) the shooting becomes the primary killer, with the follow up assault being a finishing move. Especially since both of those examples rely on fleet to close, which is inherently less reliable than jump packs, raising the odds that you can get the assault.

 

Point to remember: over half of the squads killing power is concentrated into 3 models - the Sgt and the 2 Flamer Guys.

[Brightguy]

I run them about half the time, either with or without a Chaplain, but always with plasmas or flamers. Here is my advice: Don't Fight Fair. Don't use them up against enemy CC squads. Don't even use them against standard troops (Ork Boys, Tac Squads). Use them against enemy support squads. They will tear up Devastators, Lootas and Dark Reapers and they have the speed to get up close and personal with them. This is one of my key rock, paper, scissors 40k lessons. Don't fight like on like unless you can avoid it. Fight your CC against his shooters and shoot his CC troops and you're winning.

[Vel'Cona]

Exactly Brightguy! While Assault Marines may die to truly devoted CC troops like Ork Nobz and Daemon Princes, they make a righteous mess out of most Tau and IG units, and even throw out good wounds versus Eldar. It's very important to choose a unit for them to kill that they can handle, and take full advantage of their previously mentioned shooting capabilities. I also agree with the double flamer build alongside Vulkan (one of my fav builds) because of the mobility and lethality this setup gives you against horde opponents. Again, AM aren't truly a "spearhead" unit like Assault Termines or Vanguard; I prefer to think of them as a force multiplier or "cleaner" (to quote Killhammer) for dealing with weakened or vulnerable foes.

[Rage]

My issue with Assault Marines is that MOST things that they can do bikes can also do, and do it better.

i) T5 is arguably as good or better as the additional attack for dealing with weak enemy infantry. You don't kill as much, but you don't die as much either, keeping your squad intact and potent for longer.

ii) You get one less krak grenade with the bikes, but the attack bike has a multi-melta, and the bikes can have up to two melta guns for hunting tanks.

iii) They're just as fast as assault marines for most countercharge roles.

iv) 1 plasma pistol, 2 plasma guns that are relentless, and a multi melta are better than 3 plasma pistols. 2 flamers, a combi flamer, and a heavy bolter are better than 2 flamers and a combi flamer. Unlike assault squads, bikes can mix and match anti-tank/anti-elite/anti-horde in one squad reasonably well.

v) Chappy on a bike + Captain on a bike (or Khan) do just about as well as any assault marine mix.

 

Additional Assault Marine pro/cons

- T4 high visibility target

+ Can avoid difficult terrain by moving over it

+ Can go up levels in buildings

+ Relatively lower cost compared to bikes

 

One thing to add is that bikes are taking their lives in their own hands every time they charge into cover, Assault Marines don't have the same problem. Also a full bike squad is so much more expensive! Also I just don't rank Bikers in an assault capacity due to the lack of attacks after the charge to do much damage.

 

Has anyone tried a Librarian supporting them? Say with Force Dome and Avenger? They then get an inv save while moving across the board.

 

I'm contemplating using a squad of 10 in a Khan list using the outflank ability with Khan and Chaplain as part of the unit (can't find anything saying I can't) to make full use of the Furious Assault rule and Chaplain ability.

[Warp Angel]

One thing to add is that bikes are taking their lives in their own hands every time they charge into cover, Assault Marines don't have the same problem. Also a full bike squad is so much more expensive! Also I just don't rank Bikers in an assault capacity due to the lack of attacks after the charge to do much damage.

 

Has anyone tried a Librarian supporting them? Say with Force Dome and Avenger? They then get an inv save while moving across the board.

 

I'm contemplating using a squad of 10 in a Khan list using the outflank ability with Khan and Chaplain as part of the unit (can't find anything saying I can't) to make full use of the Furious Assault rule and Chaplain ability.

 

Bikes have the ability to move through cover and charge into it at full distance without random rolls. It means you're guaranteed the charge if you want it. If you're running the bike command squad with an apothacary (the only full hand to hand loadout they've got available to them and beastly expensive), you have a 1 in 12 chance of dying. Otherwise you'll lose an average of 1-2 (maybe more, maybe none) if you have to charge through cover. I find that I can usually go around it, or just tear them up in shooting and let a tactical squad charge into cover to finish them off.

 

It's not as bad as you think.

 

And neither is the price. 310 or so points for a very well equipped bike squad vs. 220 or so for a similar assault squad. The bikes get a higher toughness, far better shooting, and relentless for that extra 90 points.

 

Not everyone sees it the same way I do, and as I've pointed out above, tactical squads do have a role to play.

[Resv]

Jump Troops must roll a dangerous terrain test as well when they jump into or out of cover. Sometimes rolling twice! The loss of one attack isn't that big of a loss either due to relentless. Being able to always rapid fire, and thanks to the twin-linked bolters, accurately and then assault is a huge bonus.

[Rage]

Feel no pain doesn't work with dangerous terrain tests, if you don't take a save you can't get feel no pain save.

 

Yeah I just don't see bike squads as effective enough assault units, most times you're taking damage from PF's anyway so the extra T doesn't help so much. You're right though bikes are a good deal, I think they're great but I use them as a better tactical squad. Their main advantage to an Assault Squad is their ability to be taken as a scoring unit. Thinking that I can use the bikes to soften up a target then finish it with the assault squad or if needed the FC + Chaplain + Khan could do some nasty damage...oh and they get I5....deal!

[Grey Mage]

Not true- Fell no pain is save all its own. Dangerous terrain does not ignore saves in close combat, and has no AP value, so you get the save.

 

You also get invulnerable saves.

 

A Biker Command Squad is a fairly effective cavalry unit, if the models werent so expensive wed probly see more of them.

[Vel'Cona]

@Rage, I like your point about using IC's to bolster the Assault Squad. I never leave home without a Chappy or Libby for them (after the big V man of course), and find that either HQ choice adds a new dimension to the otherwise middle of the road AS. Particularly, I love rolling a Libby with Might of Heroes (whichever one makes him S6) and Avenger, since both compliment the AS so well for a realistic points investment. Sometimes the Force Weapon even comes into play! I guess it's not coincidence that every non-special character in my arsenal is wearing a JP is it? :)

[Rage]

Not true- Fell no pain is save all its own. Dangerous terrain does not ignore saves in close combat, and has no AP value, so you get the save.

 

You also get invulnerable saves.

 

Um...no,it specifically says in the Feel no Pain special rule that you can't use it

 

p75, Feel No Pain

"...and any other wound against which no armour save can ever be taken (like wounds from power fists, Dreadnought close combat weapons, rending weapons that roll a 6, Perils of the Warp, failed dangerous terrain tests, etc)."

 

Though you are correct about invulnerable saves.

[Moghal]

2 Flamers (assume 12 hits total, 6 wounds)

 

I don't know who you're playing against, but if you want to send them my way I'd appreciate it - I can't think of a single time I've managed to get six enemy models under a flamer template - average is probably 3 or 4, 5 is a cause for celebration.

 

Anyone seeing a template weapon coming their way spreads their troops out, it's almost inevitable - I like to use it in conjunction with missile launchers from elsewhere in the army to improve the chance of hitting with frag rounds. ;)

 

M.

[Cornishman]

I usually run a squad of 10 with a thunder hammer and storm shield on the sargeant, and 2 flamers. This gives the squad several uses:

1. Counter-assualt, keep them back, and use thier packs to get them to where they are needed. Then toast and charge :-) I find this particularily useful against Orks

2. Hunting. Thunder hammers usually slam thier way through vehicle rear armour. Also with 10 guys there are enough ablative wound to take on tougher things (e.g shoty Carnifexes, twin devour flyrants etc...) whilst the thunder hammer not only downs the creatures, this is where the hammer pays divideds over a fist by reducing the MC's I to 1 it can also keep your regular guys around a little longer

3. Finishing things off/ tying things down. As mentioned Assault marines suffer from whilst being solid assuault troops they aren't the best, and in terms of attacks any CSM will be thier equal so they need an edge. Soften them up with supporting fire and send in the assualt marines to finish them off.

 

Marines work through the focused application of force, keep this is mind and you'll use them effectively. My friendly 1500pt list for the past year has been a semi-mobile gun line (Kantor, 10 Stern, 2x10 man tac, 1x10 man Assault, 1x10 man dev +couple of Razorbacks). As such my assualt marines are usually to be found behind the gunline waiting to pounce on anything that gets to close. Where I'm being more aggressive my assault marines will be close support to my transports ready to engage the enemy.

[Gornall]

To me, Assault Marines work best in conjunction with Tacticals/SGVs in Rhinos. You move the Rhino up 12", unload your shooters, and dump RF into the target squad. At this point, any survivors would then be within assault range of your RFing Marines, meaning you would normally eat a charge. However, the Assault Marines can swoop in, dump some pistols/flamers into the squad and charge, locking them up so your shooters are safe( r ) and hopefully can hop back into the Rhino next turn and continue on. If all goes well, you Assault Marines stay locked in combat so they can't be shot next turn (and then finish off the target squad in the opponents turn) and the scrum provides cover to the shooters and Rhino. They also do very well at supporting Bike Squads in the same way, keeping the Bikes mobile so they can keep RFing with TL-Bolters while the Assault Marines mop up.

[monkey boy]

Fun with numbers: Assault Squads are actually better at shooting than they are at close combat.

 

Assault Squad shooting vs. T4;

8 Bolt Pistols (8 shots, 5.33 hits, 2.66 wounds)

2 Flamers (assume 12 hits total, 6 wounds)

 

8.66 pre-armour wounds. All at AP5.

 

 

Assault Squad CC vs. WS4 T4 (assuming the assault squad get to charge)

25 normal attacks (12.5 hits, 6.25 wounds)

3 Power Fist attacks (1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds)

 

7.5 pre-armour wounds, only 1.25 with armour bypass

 

 

 

No matter what happens, and what armour the target may have, the shooting will always do more damage than the assault....

 

I'm sorry that's just plain wrong, remember in CC you can hit your opponent in their turn, you can only shoot in your turn. So in one game turn you can give out 8.66 pre-armour wounds at AP5, for assault you get 10.75 pre-armour CC wounds AND 2.25 armour ignoring wounds (providing you loose no guys in CC).

 

Exact figures may be off as I am very tired but you get the gist of what I'm saying.

[Vel'Cona]

Not to jump on the bandwagon here, but it seems to me that the whole argument is quite unnecessary. Any player worth his salt will be shooting and assaulting with his Assault Squad anyway. I would say, barring adding an IC, that the squad is generally equally good at both the shooting and assault phases, and it is designed as such for the express purpose of doing both. This helps to compensate somewhat for their noticeable lack of punch against dedicated assault units.

[Grey Mage]

Not true- Fell no pain is save all its own. Dangerous terrain does not ignore saves in close combat, and has no AP value, so you get the save.

 

You also get invulnerable saves.

 

Um...no,it specifically says in the Feel no Pain special rule that you can't use it

 

p75, Feel No Pain

"...and any other wound against which no armour save can ever be taken (like wounds from power fists, Dreadnought close combat weapons, rending weapons that roll a 6, Perils of the Warp, failed dangerous terrain tests, etc)."

 

Though you are correct about invulnerable saves.

Oops. Sorry about that, my mistake.

[Koremu]

Not to jump on the bandwagon here, but it seems to me that the whole argument is quite unnecessary. Any player worth his salt will be shooting and assaulting with his Assault Squad anyway. I would say, barring adding an IC, that the squad is generally equally good at both the shooting and assault phases, and it is designed as such for the express purpose of doing both. This helps to compensate somewhat for their noticeable lack of punch against dedicated assault units.

Shrike. And lots of players are NOT worth their salt.

[Cadarn]

I have mad big love for my Assault Marines. I always run a ten man unit with two flamers and a PF on the Sergeant. They are able to dish out pain on pretty much anything. Sure, they may not destroy a dedicated unit, but they will still lay down some serious hurt. They have really benefited from the change in combat resolution since 4th, whereby the modifiers are based on the difference in wounds, not how much someone is outnumbered by.

 

Most things have been said, but one thing I would suggest is to be really careful in how you use them. Charging them headlong at the enemy means they will most likely be shot up on the way. Bide your time. Wait for them to come within striking distance and then go for the punch. If you can spare the points then get a Chaplain with a jump pack. This is an absolute massive boost to them, but you have to control the combat. Be sure that you are the one who initiates the charge. Even if it means you have to fall back slightly before hand. Do not let the enemy assault you. Ever. Any unit that charges an squad of assault marines will be damned confident in what they're doing. You really, REALLY want the extra attack and the re-rolls from the chaplain.

[Coyote]

One item that I haven't seen noted: Assault Squads are the least expensive way to field a Drop Pod or Rhino. This matters the most with fluffy DP lists (like mine). For 100pts, you can drop the Jet Packs and get a Drop Pod or Rhino FOR FREE. The next least expensive choices for a DP is a Thunderfire Cannon, then a vanilla-Dreadnought. So, if you're looking to round out a list with one of these vehicles, keep Assault Marines in mind. ;-)

[Vel'Cona]

From a fluffyness point of view, that's a good point. Although I would highly recommend against dropping Assault Marines in almost any situation. Since Deep Striking units can't initiate an assault, they are highly dependent on their initial shooting to do sufficient damage to weaken/destroy units nearby. Assault Marines, while good at shooting compared to other CC troops, are particularly vulnerable after the initial drop. Unlike SG or Dreadnoughts, which can depend on superior firepower or durability to survive the post drop return fire, Assault Marines do their best with a sweeping movement followed by withering fire and an Assault. When Deep Striking, they tend to lose the initiative against enemy assault elements, which quickly nullifies their first strike advantage, a problem they do not have when advancing normally as Jump Infantry. By the same token, I would avoid putting them in a Rhino or even Deep Striking them normally in most situations, as this again serves as a detriment to their first strike capability.

 

Another point of interest is that Assault Marines, as previously stated, are sub-optimal when not taken in a full squad of 10. Just like maxing out full squads of Tactical Marines in transports tends to increase their effectivess, Assault Squads depend on their numbers and speed to engage the opponent on their terms. It may seem like a good idea to file in a small squad of Assault Marines to serve as a force multiplier, but this is in fact a relatively poor use of points, Drop Pods or otherwise.