Command Squads

[travh20]

I was wondering if command squads for captains are worth it? What I mean is, I usually run a similar list most games, swapping certain units out for each other, but hardly ever really shaking it up. Lately though the command squad has intrigued me. Problem is, I know that to incorporate it into my list I will have to remove something else. I was hoping someone could give me some advice about how they use a command squad, how they equip it, and how it performs in actual games.

[Twin .44]

It all depends on how you play really. I never do because I take enough Elites as it is. But if you load up on Troops and heavy support, then you may want to consider them as a viable choice. perhaps even in that land raider you made a loadout of points with. not a bad idea considering they are combat beasts, but if you have something like a vanguard veteran squad, skip it.

[tedwin183]

I say skip it, altogether. Only time I have ever seen a command squad really hold its weight is in a Khan bike army, with Khan attached to the command squad all game. Other than that, they still have 3+ armour and still lose to most elite cc units in the game. Overall, waste of points in my opinion. Honour Guard, on the other hand, can be totally brutal.

[Koremu]

Do we really have to have one of these threads every few days?

 

Yes, Command Squads can do very well, especially in lower points (1kish) games where 5 Power Armoured Space Marine Veterans with Feel No Pain is pretty much the scariest thing available.

 

Things NOT to do; Overequip them, expect them to stand up to larger units, or use them in big games. Sadly, without the ability to upgrade the Command Squad to a full 10 man unit, they don't really work well at high points values.

 

Still, they do have some weapon options that other units don't have. 4 Plasma Guns is a noted 'nidzilla killer, 4 Flamers is an entertaining way of BBQing most units, and 4 Meltaguns is a good Tank Hunter unit.

 

Close Combat wise it is incredibly easy to overspend. The choices of Champion and Standard Bearer are good, but leave you with 2 more irreplacable models (to add to the Apothecary and Captain), which limits your options for other upgrades without making yourself a juicy target. Most of the time I would not take a Champion if my Captain was armed with a high initiative weapon (Power Weapon, Lightning Claw or Relic Blade, say), as the additional protection from MEQ CC isn't as necessary. I usually take at least one Power Fist or Thunder Hammer unless the Captain is equiped with one already. I usually add a Storm Shield to help soak enemy Unit Champions with Power Weapons. The Company Banner is deceptive - it is better than many people seem to think for a CC focused Command Squad.

 

Command Squads are a natural fit for a Razorback in small games.

[fringewarden]

In 1750 point games they can be useful as a way to clear enemy troops. You take a modest captain and a command squad that can handle anything with the upgrades it is given and you give them a razorback. They spearhead with the objective-capturing tactical squads. You arrange movement such that the command squad either attacks a unit that has had a tactical squad or two unload on it or you use it as a counter assault unit.

Don't engage them in H2H with strong H2H units - shoot those with heavy weapons.

[TheReclusiarch]

I love my command squad. I keep it pretty cheap (Banner, stormshield and champion). They are there to escort my Lysander Count-as into close combat. :D

[newach]

I Run my command squad with 4 plasma guns! (Take that Purge)

 

Sometimes I put them in a Razorback.

[Frosty the Pyro]

as I said in http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=169261 I favor a cheap shooty comand squad.

[Scott-S6]

I find a CC command squad to be very effective, providing the enemy has something worth killing in combat (i.e. not guard) and that thing isn't too hard (certain eldar, chaos, etc units).

 

Within that fairly narrow range of opponents who are hard enough to be worth a command squad's attention but not too hard to kick their asses then the command squad is great.

 

It's a big chunk of points though.

[ghost9pm]

Here's why I don't like them.

 

Why would you want to give veterans that have 2 attacks meltas or plasma guns? That's really what you're paying 25 points per veteran for. A space marine with +1 A. So they're clearly better suited for close combat, right?

 

Nope. Not that either. Power swords are 15 points a pop. Fists are 25. The champion is decent, but you can only take one. So if you really deck these guys out for Close Combat you're looking at close to 200 points for guys with a 3+ regular save. It would be better to take assault terminators since most dedicated close combat specialists are going to beat the crap out of the honor guard before they can even hit back. Since most close combat specialist units have high Initiative you're probably going to strike last. You've only got five 3+ wounds. They're going to die and your opponent is going to laugh because you spent 200 points on these guys that got wiped out by a 70 point Banshee squad.

 

Maybe if they had access to veteran skills like furious charge they would be decent. But nope, they left that in the trashcan when they made the codex.

 

This also applies to Vanguard Veterans who are worse because they don't even come with jump packs. If you purchase the vanguard boxed set and paid for all the upgrades that are represented on the models they would be a 250 point unit.

 

Stay away from both of these at all costs.

[Bjornas]

Here's why I don't like them.

 

Why would you want to give veterans that have 2 attacks meltas or plasma guns? That's really what you're paying 25 points per veteran for. A space marine with +1 A. So they're clearly better suited for close combat, right?

 

Nope. Not that either. Power swords are 15 points a pop. Fists are 25. The champion is decent, but you can only take one. So if you really deck these guys out for Close Combat you're looking at close to 200 points for guys with a 3+ regular save. It would be better to take assault terminators since most dedicated close combat specialists are going to beat the crap out of the honor guard before they can even hit back. Since most close combat specialist units have high Initiative you're probably going to strike last. You've only got five 3+ wounds. They're going to die and your opponent is going to laugh because you spent 200 points on these guys that got wiped out by a 70 point Banshee squad.

 

Maybe if they had access to veteran skills like furious charge they would be decent. But nope, they left that in the trashcan when they made the codex.

 

This also applies to Vanguard Veterans who are worse because they don't even come with jump packs. If you purchase the vanguard boxed set and paid for all the upgrades that are represented on the models they would be a 250 point unit.

 

Stay away from both of these at all costs.

 

You're forgetting Feel no Pain.

 

The fact that you're able to kit them out with PWs etc is why they cost more than a regular marine. I do agree that they're not very effective as they are, which is why you should give them bikes (and Storm Shields on a few).

[Race Bannon]

I'll say that you should give them a try and one game does not make or break them.

 

Personally, I use them, but I make a rule that says "Only in 1,500+ point games."

 

I have been tinkering with their equipment, and I have yet to find a good balance only because the wounding allocation system is what is the bane for this unit. It's almost as if GW doesn't want you to ever field them :(

 

But I will add a note on the Champion. I am of the belief (and practice) that if a Veteran is upgraded to a Champion, then the Champion is not eligible to have further upgrades. THAT discussion has been hashed out here before and no conclusion was made. Regardless, since the upgrade is 15 points, this is the same as a Power Weapon BUT you also get a Combat Shield. We all know it's now a crap item, but if the points spent gets a "free" invulnerable save, then I think it is a good buy. Why? If the squad takes some hits and happens to have a no-armor save shot (i.e Las-cannon), give it to the champ. His 6+ is a chance to shrug off the shot. And if you fail, meh, you were going to lose a model anyway.

 

The problem with the Champion upgrade is that the squad now has three different models in one unit. So wound allocation gets a little tricky and each save will count. More upgrades just makes each sav taken even more valuable.

 

One other pro to the unit is that it does not take a force slot and does not have to be with the IC if you dont want.

 

All this may seem obvious, but it's worth mentioning openly as points to consider.

[minigun762]

Command Squads are a natural fit for a Razorback in small games.

 

I agree with this.

Keep the squad cheap and mobile. I don't have the SM codex but a TL Heavy Bolter Razorback, Relic Blade Captain and Command squad with 2 Flamers/2 Meltaguns seems like it would be a cheap all-purpose squad that you can use as mobile support for the rest of your mechanized army.

[Grey Mage]

5 Veterans with Feel No Pain for less than a base squad of vangaurd veterans? Yes please!

 

The ability to take a banner is meh, and Im not up for the chapter champion- but three special weapons, and the ability to take stormshields or power weapons on each and every one of them is nice, very nice.

 

I also see the ability to get a 50% discount on bikes for the squad can be very useful- using them as light cavalry seems a good tactic.

[Warp Angel]

5 Veterans with Feel No Pain for less than a base squad of vangaurd veterans? Yes please!

 

The ability to take a banner is meh, and Im not up for the chapter champion- but three special weapons, and the ability to take stormshields or power weapons on each and every one of them is nice, very nice.

 

I also see the ability to get a 50% discount on bikes for the squad can be very useful- using them as light cavalry seems a good tactic.

 

I'm not a fan of small squads (see my sig link to Risk and Unit Size) for detailed thoughts.

 

That said, someone said that a squad in small games is an absolute beatstick (I'm paraphrasing here), another suggested giving them a razorback, and another likes the bike mounted version.

 

My general rule of thumb is that as soon as any unit approaches the cost of a terminator squad without increasing in effectiveness, you should really start to consider the terminator squad. For all intents and purposes, as soon as 5 men start to cost 200-250 points, you need to re-evaluate priorities. That's 5+ terminators, who also have 2 attacks, an 2+ and an invuln save instead of FNP (serving different purposes, but essentially increasing survival about the same), and all come equipped with a power weapon of some kind and high firepower.

[chaplain_quint]

command squad 4 plasmaguns razorback is the bomb. kills loads of MEQ and MC's

[Koremu]

5 Veterans with Feel No Pain for less than a base squad of vangaurd veterans? Yes please!

 

The ability to take a banner is meh, and Im not up for the chapter champion- but three special weapons, and the ability to take stormshields or power weapons on each and every one of them is nice, very nice.

 

I also see the ability to get a 50% discount on bikes for the squad can be very useful- using them as light cavalry seems a good tactic.

 

I'm not a fan of small squads (see my sig link to Risk and Unit Size) for detailed thoughts.

 

That said, someone said that a squad in small games is an absolute beatstick (I'm paraphrasing here), another suggested giving them a razorback, and another likes the bike mounted version.

 

My general rule of thumb is that as soon as any unit approaches the cost of a terminator squad without increasing in effectiveness, you should really start to consider the terminator squad. For all intents and purposes, as soon as 5 men start to cost 200-250 points, you need to re-evaluate priorities. That's 5+ terminators, who also have 2 attacks, an 2+ and an invuln save instead of FNP (serving different purposes, but essentially increasing survival about the same), and all come equipped with a power weapon of some kind and high firepower.

In all of its forms, the Command Squad either approaches or exceeds the Terminator Squad at about 250 points, not least because the Terminators must either be teleported (which can leave them stranded after their hot zone goes cold), or purchased a Land Raider. By contrast, Bike Command Squads are faster and more durable under anti-personel fire, while the other Command Squads can ride in a cheap transport.

 

I would be more inclined to worry about the effectiveness of the Terminators, in many cases. Terminators can be disengaged from very easily.

 

Oh, and regarding the banner: in some cases, the banner is the most cost effective points-spend you can make in a Space Marine army. In others, it's the worst. It's an odd mechanic for a 40k army to have.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Seams like a techmarine/MOTF would be a natural fit to a flamer/fist or plasma base comand squad.

[Warp Angel]

5 Veterans

In all of its forms, the Command Squad either approaches or exceeds the Terminator Squad at about 250 points, not least because the Terminators must either be teleported (which can leave them stranded after their hot zone goes cold), or purchased a Land Raider. By contrast, Bike Command Squads are faster and more durable under anti-personel fire, while the other Command Squads can ride in a cheap transport.

 

I would be more inclined to worry about the effectiveness of the Terminators, in many cases. Terminators can be disengaged from very easily.

 

Which is why I said "start to consider". In most of my army builds I've got a land raider crusader in a heavy support slot anyway, so the additional transport cost is effectively zero. As usual, playstyle and play environment will trump generic advice here. I face enough monstrous creatures, power weapons, and S8/low AP weaponry, that the terminator's 2+ and invuln make them far more durable and useful. That certainly won't be the case for everyone.

[Koremu]

You messed up the quote attribution there WA, that was me, not grey mage ;)

[newach]

In the 2,500 point game I played yesterday, my command squad with 4 plasma guns, killed two obliterators and 6 termies before getting killed by powerfist.

So they earned 1.5 times their own points.