ShinyRhino Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Maybe a new Chaos reader's perspective might be interesting to you folks. I recently acquired the CSM codex, because I wanted to know the army better (for when I face it), and also really liked the idea of a pure KSons army, and wanted to know more about Noise Marines. I'm an Ultramarine on the table, though. *endures spitting and usage of the S-word* In flipping through the Dex, I was kinda disappointed at all the mixing and matching of God-dedicated units in the gallery section. The whole Chaos Undivided thing just felt like cherry-picking of the best units. Before going in to the codex, I'd envisioned a KSons army that used Rubrics as its infantry, supported by the generic units painted in KSons colours. But seeing KSons and Nurglites in the same force on a table? That was just....weird. It just made the God-specific units (Rubrics, Zerkers, Noise Marines, Nurglites) feel like....mercenaries? Selling their services to the highest bidder. Leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Blech. After reading through, I thought up the fantasy of making up a combined Tzeentch/Slaanesh army. It'd be a converted warband that reveres Tzeentch for the magical power he grants, as well as the mutations. The mutations would be welcomed, and even encouraged. Basic bolter-armed Chaos Marines would all have spikes and horns bursting from their armor, hence the Horned Host as a name. Slaanesh would look favorably upon them for embracing the sensory pain of living with the mutations, and grant his gifts as well. All that being said, my fluff is not a justification for taking both Rubrics and Noise Marines in the same army. Heck, the fluff doesn't support EITHER, in my head. In game terms, I could probably make up a reason for the Noise Marines. Perhaps they gain/utilize Noise Marine weapons as amplification into weaponry of their pained screams from the wracking the mutations cause. Heck, I could even justify Berserkers as those who've gained the most brutal horned and spiked mutations, and seek to enjoy the sensation of rending their foes in close combat on the end of these spiky gifts. I'd probably eschew Dreads, and all the Heavy Support options because they don't fit the theme of my army. I'd probably get murdered in a competitive tourney, since I'd never use Lash, even though it was available to my force. I'd aim instead for Gift of Chaos, which would give my opponent easy kill points! But, someone seeing me mix Zerkers and Noise Marines in the same Tzeentch-coloured force might ding me on points based on unit selection. When exactly would I get the opportunity to explain my army? Where I play, standing around explaining the reasoning behind your selections eats into setup and game time (timed rounds). So, the chance to ding someone without ever knowing their force was fluffy as hell still exists. It's a fine line to walk. You can fluff away any contradictory unit choices, really. /shrug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 only considering how even this forum looks now and that our tournaments droped from around 400 different people per year to around half of that , I dont think it made the player base bigger. so they have to buy more models because of the variations, and thus getting more money. how does taking away all legion lists and giving one [a fusion of IW and BL] to chaos players give more model variation . all you need to play chaos ever is 8 terminators 2 dps 6 rhinos 2 land raiders 6 oblits and 60 marines . when you have that and counts as is in full effect you dont need to buy any models for 5th ed. This was on an assumption they were doing it to attract new people, I'm relatively new to Chaos, and had I not known the fluff to the game or didn't have the mind set to ask for tips online, I would have bought a box set or two and a lot of crap that, is, basically crap until I learned from experience. Not saying that's totally wrong, but I'm not in the process of dishing out even more money for a game that is being horribly re-written again and with a fanbase that makes skub look fun to fight over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 chaos dex was made because of one thing only . they had problems with the ork model range as it wasnt ready on time , they had to put a filler dex in [as demons werent ready yet too ] . chaos was a natural option , it was easy to cut most options , all the fluff and aside for the one Thorpe story [that doesnt really make much sense , but thats nothing considering stuff he has done in the past] is copy past . they didnt even test the dex for real [the famous "we didnt knew people would play with 2 demon prince"]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 That sounds lazy and ineffective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teal Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 It is, and it seems fairly apparent in the twin Demon Prince with lash lists out there. Shudder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 That sounds lazy and ineffective. why ? better then bringing no codex at all. + everyone had to stack up on models no one owned. oblits , csm to fill those 7/8 man squads everyone was runing in the 4th ed , second demon prince, terminators , rhinos if you only had 2 . everyone who wanted to stay in the game had to either buy a new army , start playing traits [not for a very long time] or buy stuff . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 That sounds lazy and ineffective. why ? better then bringing no codex at all. + everyone had to stack up on models no one owned. oblits , csm to fill those 7/8 man squads everyone was runing in the 4th ed , second demon prince, terminators , rhinos if you only had 2 . everyone who wanted to stay in the game had to either buy a new army , start playing traits [not for a very long time] or buy stuff . That doesn't sound any better still. That also brings up my point earlier in another topic of buying more crap. Honestly, they probably would have done us a favor if they just wung it like they do the Dark Eldar codex, those poor bastards still don't have a new one, and won't for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuGGzy Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 **** it, power/meta game the hell out of the list. If anyone complains, tell them to write GW a letter. I have nothing but bitterness for what they did to the codex and made my "themed" armies basically obsolete, so, the SMurf players play to their codex's max potential, so why shouldn't we? FWIW I have a visually pure EC Slaneesh army but do "counts as" for all the cults but 1ksons so visually it makes sense but I used all t3 of the other cults and marks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 That doesn't sound any better still. considering they didnt have any models for chaos other then termis and possessed [both planed before the codex was put before orks] , it was good. for GW at least , not for gamers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Stalker Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 **** it, power/meta game the hell out of the list. If anyone complains, tell them to write GW a letter. I have nothing but bitterness for what they did to the codex and made my "themed" armies basically obsolete, so, the SMurf players play to their codex's max potential, so why shouldn't we? FWIW I have a visually pure EC Slaneesh army but do "counts as" for all the cults but 1ksons so visually it makes sense but I used all t3 of the other cults and marks. C: SM is also not ideal. I have many internal balance issues too. Just less than Chaos Space Marines. I'm bitter too, but lets discuss facts - that way people would threat us more seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 **** it, power/meta game the hell out of the list. If anyone complains, tell them to write GW a letter. I have nothing but bitterness for what they did to the codex and made my "themed" armies basically obsolete, so, the SMurf players play to their codex's max potential, so why shouldn't we? FWIW I have a visually pure EC Slaneesh army but do "counts as" for all the cults but 1ksons so visually it makes sense but I used all t3 of the other cults and marks. C: SM is also not ideal. I have many internal balance issues too. Just less than Chaos Space Marines. I'm bitter too, but lets discuss facts - that way people would threat us more seriously. The only time I hear anyone care about CSM is when they're complaining about Lash princes, or how it's the only list we can field is Plaguemarines, duel lashprinces with Obliterators. That doesn't make me happy hearing it, it irritates me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
refuse Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 After reading through, I thought up the fantasy of making up a combined Tzeentch/Slaanesh army. It'd be a converted warband that reveres Tzeentch for the magical power he grants, as well as the mutations. The mutations would be welcomed, and even encouraged. Basic bolter-armed Chaos Marines would all have spikes and horns bursting from their armor, hence the Horned Host as a name. Slaanesh would look favorably upon them for embracing the sensory pain of living with the mutations, and grant his gifts as well.All that being said, my fluff is not a justification for taking both Rubrics and Noise Marines in the same army. Heck, the fluff doesn't support EITHER, in my head. In game terms, I could probably make up a reason for the Noise Marines. Perhaps they gain/utilize Noise Marine weapons as amplification into weaponry of their pained screams from the wracking the mutations cause. Heck, I could even justify Berserkers as those who've gained the most brutal horned and spiked mutations, and seek to enjoy the sensation of rending their foes in close combat on the end of these spiky gifts. I'd probably eschew Dreads, and all the Heavy Support options because they don't fit the theme of my army. I can say, not against you. That the justification chills my bones. Chaos is "for the experience". ;) If you get a chance, read the Slaves to Darkness books. Or any of the Libera Chaotica books. Chaos was, oh it was, about damnation. And once you set foot on that path, your only choice is to go deeper each time you step. To step to the side, is to become a spawn, discarded. You are a husk, a pawn of chaos. The only way (perceptual) to survive is to be more aligned with your god then the guy next to you. If not, he is trying to worship a bit more then you, to gain the god's favor. If you pause, step, or reflect upon your fates. . . One doesn't follow khorne because they like to kill and enjoy the sensation of killing. One follows Khorne because they kill. Killing. If they liked the sensation of killing they would have fallen to Slaanesh. But Khorne doesn't care why you kill, only that you kill. To start to serve Khorne is to start killing. Till you start killing those around you (Khârn). Kill, kill, kill. To stop killing becomes to stop honoring Khorne. To pause to enjoy killing is to not be killing thus earning his disfavor. The justifications you use (while valid in the new fluff) points out to the "tourist" nature of the new chaos. They are Chaos lite. It's a fine line to walk. You can fluff away any contradictory unit choices, really. /shrug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Stalker Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 **** it, power/meta game the hell out of the list. If anyone complains, tell them to write GW a letter. I have nothing but bitterness for what they did to the codex and made my "themed" armies basically obsolete, so, the SMurf players play to their codex's max potential, so why shouldn't we? FWIW I have a visually pure EC Slaneesh army but do "counts as" for all the cults but 1ksons so visually it makes sense but I used all t3 of the other cults and marks. C: SM is also not ideal. I have many internal balance issues too. Just less than Chaos Space Marines. I'm bitter too, but lets discuss facts - that way people would threat us more seriously. The only time I hear anyone care about CSM is when they're complaining about Lash princes, or how it's the only list we can field is Plaguemarines, duel lashprinces with Obliterators. That doesn't make me happy hearing it, it irritates me. Did you missed the Refuse's posts ? Did you missed talk about lack of real marks ? Did you missed the fact that no veteran (chosen - neither in PA nor in TA) can ever worship the chaos gods until he reach Lord or Daemon Prince or is gifted with psychic powers ? Did you missed the fact that cult veterans no longer exist ? Did you missed talk about blandness of current lesser daemons ? Did you missed talk about stupid randomness - that on average does not give any benefit over 'stable' units, but could screw your plan ? Did you missed the fact about lost options and bad internal balance ? Did you even bother to read other people posts dude ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 When I said I heard people care, was from people off this site and irl. I do read other people's posts. Yes, I'm just as pissed as you about our Lesser Demons are generic, our possessed are so random they can't fill a tactical niche for :cuss, and our only HQ worth anything is a Demon Prince, because A Sorc can be too expensive or a Lord needs protection because they both can be instant killed. Yes I'm very aware of how they removed the marks for everyone except our HQs and made the bland cult troops to fill those roles. I was telling you how the only serious army list people ever talk about us with is 2 lash princes, obliterators, and Plague Marines. I hear it every time I see someone talk about CSM. Other than that, it's either Chapter arguments or how Dark Eldar are not loved enough. Edit: And this isn't just on the forum when I said that before. I'm also not trying to insinuate a flame war here, as jeske likes to say, the gods are all buddy buddy now -_-, so we're technically on the same side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aveross Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Well I have question... I going to make undivided army and the question is that if I must give all csm squads chaos glory or I can give them icon of any god ? (I already planned to get rubric, noise, plague and berzerkers and two squads of csm) isn't make such thing would be favorizing one of gods more :P ? (btw I gonna paint them in BL theme) (sorry for my bad english) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draeden Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Depends how you look at it. If you design the icons to be interchangable, it could simply be a matter of the Astartes making prepatory rituals in regards to the type of foe they will face. Eg, they know they will face a ferocious close combat enemy and might pray for Nurgles blessing to make them tougher, or Khorne to make them stronger/more killy. Whilst if they know they will face an enemy that will just pass through their armour as if it were nothing, then they would pray to Tzeentch for his divine intervention through wards. I wouldn't say it's more of favouring one god over another but rather knowing what tool to bring to get the job done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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