Tactica Discussion: Scoring Units

[Koremu]

A number of comments in recent threads have raised the question of just how many Troop (or, more particularly, Scoring) Units an army needs in order to be effective. This post is an attempt to analyse the pros and cons of both approaches.

 

 

 

The Minimal Approach

 

The Minimal Troops approach to army selection takes the attitude that the requirements for a win in an objective scenario is not to capture all of the objectives, but simply to secure one more objective than your opponent. By using two Troop Units, the minimalist has an objective claimer and a backup in case of emergency, and frees a large number of points up to use on killer or contester units.

 

Mostly what the Minimalist approach is looking for from a Scoring Unit is durability, so full squads are very common. Transportation is also common, to ensure the Scoring Unit gets to where it needs to be. Codex Loyalist armies will tend to use Tactical Marines for this, while the star from the Traitor Codex is obviously Plague Marines. Scout squads tend not to be durable enough as a Scoring Unit in a Minimal army list.

 

 

Supersize the Scorers

 

By contrast, the logic with maximising the number of scoring units in the army is that the enemy wil be unable to destroy all of the potential scorers, forcing him to attempt to play catchup for the game. Once again transportation is key - 4 Scoring units do you little good if they claim only two objectives. Drop Pod lists tend to use multiple scoring units because once landed they are relatively static, but they can be spread to threaten multiple objectives by Pod.

 

The Supersize method tends to work best when your army has something which exceeds Tactical Marines in some way. Traitor Lists have the widest and best choice on this front, with each of the four marked Traitor Marine squads offering significant over and above a Tactical Marine squad. Codex Loyalist Marines can make use of Bike Squads or Sternguard, and variant Loyalists their own Troop types.

 

Scout Squads work well in a Supersize Scoring Army, providing one takes advatage of their special abilities well. Flank Marching is a very useful trait for a scoring unit to have, as is pinning from Sniper Scouts.

 

 

 

 

I'm interested to know what options the TA regulars take. Personally I run a minimal list of just two Tactical Squads in Rhinos for most purposes, everything else being focused on Hunter-Killer ops against the enemy. How about you guys?

 

(This may be developed into a full fledged article later, so give good input)

[Vissah]

I use three Tac Squads, one to stand on my home objective and two in Rhino's to go in and claim the other objectives.

When I use a Biker Captain I get four so the Bikes go for a late objective grab or they go for the far away objective :P

TH=he rest of just there for the killing :D

[Firedrake28]

Normally I take either three or four squads of Troops when playing Codex Marines. Two Tactical Squads in Rhinos armed with a power fist, meltagun and missile launcher form the backbone of my list, with a supporting unit of 10 Scouts armed with sniper rifles and a missile launcher led by Telion. Sometimes a fourth unit, 8 Scouts armed with combat blades and a power fist come out to play too, but usually I can't spare the points.

[Aidoneus]

I'm in the supersize crowd, to an extent. I feel uncomfortable with less than 3 decently-hard Scoring units, and I prefer at least 4.

 

Against people with the minimal approach, I simply concentrate fire on their scoring units until they're dead. At that point, if I can hold on to even a single objective, I've won. It's also nice being able to deny your enemy objectives without needing to park a contesting unit on top of them. Against minimalists, I end up killing anything that go near 1-2 objectives, and focus all my units around 1-2 other objectives for the win.

 

Really, Scoring units are simply more useful than non-Scoring units. The only gotcha is that the Scoring units available to certain codices aren't very powerful in-and-of themselves. Tacticals and Scouts spring to mind. That's why Pedro, a Bike Captain, or allied GKs/SoBs are so useful: they give you access to better-quality Scoring units.

[Koremu]

The Art of running a minimalist scoring unit list is preventing that fire focus from occuring, ofc.

 

I usually keep my Tactical Squads in Reserve to protect them from incoming fire while my killer units go into the enemy. Transport-mounted Tactical Squads (Pods or Rhinos) are excellent late-game arrivals. The use of Tigurius in this kind of scenario is deeply amusing.

 

Mostly I protect my Tactical Squads by virtue of the Threat value inherent in my other units. 1000 points of Heavy Armour and Terminators forces your opponent to deal with its presence, because left unchallenged it can and will wipe out your scoring units.

 

On the subject of characters influencing Scoring unit selection, a mention should be made of Captain Sicarius. His ability to give a unit of Tactical Marines - and hence their Dedicated Transport - the Scouts USR allows you to deploy a Rhino full of Tacticals or a Razorback and Combat Squad by Flank March, a trick which often secures a late-game objective claim.

[Aidoneus]

I guess I just would rather have a unit that does both. Bikers and Sternguard, for example, are both dead-killy, and can also take a beating. Making those Scoring is fantastic, because they can wipe an enemy off an objective and then stay there and hold it. If a, say, a termy unit wipes an enemy unit off an objective, you still don't own that objective, and your termies' presence there is now wasted.

 

An army like Chaos really has the best of both worlds. Their Scoring units are some of their hardest-hitters, are nice and resilient (especially Plague Marines and, to a lesser extent, Thousand Sons), and can claim objectives for their side. PAGKs and SoBs do this nicely as well, although they are not as inherently-powerful as the Chaos choices.

 

My point though is that an army that can take these kinds of powerful-and-also-Scoring units will be stronger than one that includes a minimum number of merely-Scoring units along with a bunch of merely-powerful units.

[jeffersonian000]

One might say that I am a Water Warrior, in that I tend to field 2-3 Land Raiders filled with scoring units and play a very reactive game. In objective games, I will park either a Land Raider full of PAGK on top of my objective or if in cover place a PAGK mini-purg squad on top of it, then spend the rest of the game shooting and scooting with a later turn dash to grab/contest. In this, I love the Land Raider for its ability to be a Tank, then a Pillbox, then a Bunker, and finally Terrain, which leaves my mobile and shooty GK's time to snipe and hit as needed. If I can't win, I can generally force a draw, which isn't bad.

 

However, one thing I truly enjoy these days is the ability to ally with Space Marines to gain access to their 'Raider variants which comes with 2 tactical squads for sitting/contesting, or the ability to ally in a large squad of Sisters for objective holding and some Seraphim for Tank/IC hunting.

 

This means from the point of view of this article, I’m a minimalist at 2-3 scoring units with the idea of outlasting my opponent.

 

SJ

[Blood Scorpion]

I guess I'm inbetween the two extremes, I take 3 Scoring Units at 1500pts but really don't see the need for a forth or fifth when I play a larger game. In an Objective game you will never have more than 5 Objectives, therefore you need to control three to win max. By taking two full strength Tacticals I can, if I feel I need to, split them so I do have 5 Scoring Units.

 

I completely agree with Aidoneus, when you have the opportunity to take much more killy Scoring Units why not! Sternguard, Bikers and allied SoB/Grey Knights are all better killers than our standard Tacticals and Scouts. After fulfilling the minimum two FOC slots with the Tacticals above, I then take a squad of Grey Knights myself.

 

Beyond this I look for units that have a much greater Kill potential. I have found that most opponents have to concentrate on these units more than your Scoring Units otherwise they will be ripped apart!

[Marlow]

At 1500 I usually only take two (one being Bikers) and then add a third scoring unit for larger games.

 

I would like to have three at lower points but struggle to be able to fit them in...

[Deathwing]

Recently I`ve gone to using 6 scoring units but being a Dark Angels player I have fairly elite scoring units.

 

My current list at 1700+ runs 2 full tac squads in transports (currently I use one rhino and one drop pod), 2 Ravenwing squadrons and 2 Deathwing squads plus required HQ.

 

For objective based missions it`s great as I can overload my opponent`s side of the board with 4 hard hitting and tough scoring units which is usually enough to give my opponent`s army a run for their money. In most cases I can engage my 2 RW and 2 DW squads against only part of my opponent`s army and then bring on the drop pod squad to assist (or claim an open objective) while the rhino squad goes and claims an open objective near my edge. Having an AV14 speeder to draw fire and act as a late game objective contester also helps in objective missions.

 

2 or 3 large scoring units is what I would go for in a regular codex list. Gives your scoring units enough survivability and shouldn`t eat too many points that you can`t put killy stuff in the list. The type of scoring unit would depend on the preference of the player. If your army can get hard-hitting scoring units then go for it as it is so much better to be hard hitting and scoring than it is to just be hard hitting (i.e. bike squads, sternguard, cult marines)

 

As someone else pointed out elsewhere, you only ever need to hold one objective to win but you need to be able to contest every other objective. Also annihilation is an objective in every game as if your opponent gets tabled, you win automatically.

[Giga]

At 1500-1850, I believe 3 big scoring units (either 3 tac squads, or 2 tac squads + a big sternguard squad if I take pedro) is the correct amount. :P

[ghost9pm]

Great thread! Really makes me think about the nitty gritty details of the game.

 

Personally. I run 4 scoring units in a 1500 point game. 2 Large units in rhinos, each accompanied by an Emperor's Champion or Marshal. The squads are decked out with power fists and meltaguns.

 

I also have 2 small 5 man Lascannon/Plasmagun squads. They can follow up behind the main force to claim objecives, or can squat on the base during capture and control while the rest of the army pushes towards the enemy objective.

 

So I guess I'm somewhere in the middle.

 

I think if your army is too minimalist or supersized, the enemy can exploit this as a weakness, like you said earlier. Some armies can't avoid this, like Tyranids or IG which are supersized, and Space Marines, which are usually Minimalist. Its just the way their lists are made.

 

I would rather face a minimalist army in a tournament any day of the week, because if you kill their scoring units they have to fight it out just to end the game in a draw.

[Warp Angel]

I'm going to agree with Aidoneus for the most part.

 

The problem with Marines (but not Templars, CSM, Daemons, SoB, or GK) is that scoring and killing your enemy tend to be mutually exclusive activities. You can mitigate this to some extent by using RAS in an BA army, Termies/Bikes in a DA army, or Bikes/Sternguard in a Vanilla army given the right commander.

 

But even there, when you compare the absolute killing power and/or defensive capability of scoring units to your Elite and Heavy units, it isn't as good a choice for killing your opponent.

 

If you build your army around him, Vulkan can make your basic troops reasonably deadly though.

 

Warhammer 40k is a game about Killing your opponent. As I've stated in various ways in my Killhammer articles:

 

1) Every scenario can be won by anihilation - destroying your opponent's army.

2) If you are able to kill all of your opponent's scoring units, they can't win an objectives based game.

3) If you are able to kill off your opponent's units capable of contesting your objectives, they can't stop you from scoring.

4) You only need one objective to win a scoring scenario, as long as your opponent can't score on more than one.

 

Looking at those four principles, it would seem that every possible way of winning involves killing your opponent. As a general, you need to figure out the right balance of scoring vs. killing units that you need to win.

 

I've had good luck with 3 in games of around 1850 and above, and 2 in smaller games.

 

A typical selection might be:

 

Compulsory 1) Tactical w/Razorback, Plasma Cannon, Flamer, Powerfist

Compulsory 2) Full Bike Squad, multi melta attack bike, melta gun, flamer, powerfist

Optional 1) Tactical w/Rhino, multi melta, melta, powerfist

[yergerjo]

If you play in the tournament scene; many cases when the scenario calls for objectives holding just 1 more than your opponent is not enough. That might grant you a minor victory whereas holding 3 more objectives than your opponent is what is needed to get the "massacre", then the additional battle point mods come into play.

 

So holding 1 more objective than your opponent may be enough to win the battle but not enough to win the war.

 

Personally, I use the +1 Troop for each 500 points, unfortunately at the 1850 mark I have so much else to making my list effective and "killy" I can only afford 3 Troops, but at 2000 I must make the changes to get in a 4th unit; you know you are gonna lose at least 1 through attrition.

[Koremu]

The problem with Marines (but not Templars, CSM, Daemons, SoB, or GK) is that scoring and killing your enemy tend to be mutually exclusive activities. You can mitigate this to some extent by using RAS in an BA army, Termies/Bikes in a DA army, or Bikes/Sternguard in a Vanilla army given the right commander.

 

But even there, when you compare the absolute killing power and/or defensive capability of scoring units to your Elite and Heavy units, it isn't as good a choice for killing your opponent.

 

If you build your army around him, Vulkan can make your basic troops reasonably deadly though.

 

These are all good points, but impact right into my problem with the expanded Scoring unit lists - the expense of the Character. I can rarely justify the expense (or the presence!) of any 175+ point character in a 1500 point or less game. They are too much of an expense for a single model at that battle size.

 

The other problems I have are that I don't like losing Combat Tactics, and in Kantors case that making Sternguard Scoring has mostly the effect that they draw intense fire and die. A dead sternguard unit isn't scoring anything :P

 

Likewise, I can't really justify a Bike Captain or Sicarius in 1500. Sicarius is so costly that he's really only usable in 2000+.

 

So, for 1500, I'm left with just straight Tacticals or Scouts. I don't really want to use more than 2 Tactical Squads (too much duplication of ability), and in some circumstances I can't proxy the Scouts and their LSS. I'm really not fond of using Scouts as an on the table unit (they die too easily in my experience), and Flanking isn't very effective without a Storm.

[Blood Scorpion]

I can rarely justify the expense (or the presence!) of any 175+ point character in a 1500 point or less game. They are too much of an expense for a single model at that battle size.

 

The other problems I have are that I don't like losing Combat Tactics, and in Kantors case that making Sternguard Scoring has mostly the effect that they draw intense fire and die. A dead sternguard unit isn't scoring anything :(

 

Likewise, I can't really justify a Bike Captain or Sicarius in 1500. Sicarius is so costly that he's really only usable in 2000+.

 

So, for 1500, I'm left with just straight Tacticals or Scouts.

That is where Sisters of Battle and Grey Knights can be useful. You don't need to pump tons of points into your HQ to get them. I know most people like to have their Assault Terminators assaulting out of a Land Raider, but a full unit of Grey Knights can also be devastating and give you the extra Scoring Unit that you want. At 1500pts all I run are two Tacticals and Grey Knights and they have proven to be a very efficient combination of fire power and combat effectiveness.

[Koremu]

I regard hiving into daemonhunters as kinda lame, tbh.

 

I'll grant you that it's effective though.

[Warp Angel]

If you play in the tournament scene; many cases when the scenario calls for objectives holding just 1 more than your opponent is not enough. That might grant you a minor victory whereas holding 3 more objectives than your opponent is what is needed to get the "massacre", then the additional battle point mods come into play.

 

So holding 1 more objective than your opponent may be enough to win the battle but not enough to win the war.

 

Personally, I use the +1 Troop for each 500 points, unfortunately at the 1850 mark I have so much else to making my list effective and "killy" I can only afford 3 Troops, but at 2000 I must make the changes to get in a 4th unit; you know you are gonna lose at least 1 through attrition.

 

If that's the case, then 2 squads of scoring becomes 4 scoring combat squads.

 

Including more scoring units does you no good if you can't kill enough of the enemy to allow you to take objectives without them being contested. It's up to you to figure out what that balance is.

[kaiserstole20]

At 1500 I generally use 2 full tactical squads. Generally I don't even use rhinos... my army moves as a block with the tacs bringing up the rear. I'd fit the rhinos in if I could but I have fun and don't consider my force too handicapped without extreme scoring mobility.

[Captain of The Inceptors]

At 1500 points I use 4 Tactical squads in Rhinos, and 1 Sternguard in a Razorback with Pedro. This provides the enemy with one high priority target (Pedro+Stern) but also 4 others to attempt to disable.

 

I Find that a full Tactical squad in a Rhino can be very resistant to incoming fire if you use the Rhino and careful positioning.

Last night I had the unit last 4 turns heads up with a dakka Predator.

[Koremu]

At 1500 points I use 4 Tactical squads in Rhinos, and 1 Sternguard in a Razorback with Pedro. This provides the enemy with one high priority target (Pedro+Stern) but also 4 others to attempt to disable.

 

I Find that a full Tactical squad in a Rhino can be very resistant to incoming fire if you use the Rhino and careful positioning.

Last night I had the unit last 4 turns heads up with a dakka Predator.

 

That's a lot of scoring, but do you not find that you lack the ability to take down enemy units? What kinda of anti-armour are you packing?

[Cameron Magnus]

I usualy play lists of 1500 or more, that said I almost always take one tactical for every 500 points. There is another pattern I try to follow as well. Two Tactical squads for every Elite choice I bring.

 

However I have a rather uniqe game coming up. I wanted to try everything by drop pods and deep strike except a scout with teleport homer. I'll be drop podding in two dreads and a stern guard in the first turn and a MOTF will be my HQ. I can probably squeeze in some termies for deep strike but only take two troops.

 

But like I said this will be a uniqe game for a campaign and we already know there is only one objective. I am confident that my two troops can hold the objective after my dreads and termies drop in and get stuck in with the enemy. Hit 'um hard and fast.

 

There were two recent games we played where I had four troop choices. Even with five objectives I simply doubled up on two objectives and contested two others with my elite/fast units. My opponent wasnt happy and I had him sweating as he could not pry my tacticals away and I was taking a tole on his scoring units. In the end of one game though it was a draw but with him barely hanging on to two objectives and with my four troops still at 70% strength.

[Aidoneus]

I regard hiving into daemonhunters as kinda lame, tbh.

Sir, I must disagree. Perhaps I'm biased, as I play Daemonhunters as a full army, but I think the inquisitorial armies are some of the best-looking, most-interesting, and unique units out there. I would LOVE to see them more often.

[Koremu]

That's all fine and good.

 

I just don't think that hiving into another codex list should really be done. Call it a sense of purity.

[kaiserstole20]

I just don't think that hiving into another codex list should really be done. Call it a sense of purity.

I agree with this statement.