Callidus assasin

[revnow]

- It is classified as a single handed close combat weapon, and not a "special" single handed close combat weapon. The Nueral Shredder gives no "bonuses" (The word used in the BRB pg. 42) in close combat and therefore is a normal single handed close combat weapon. When combined with a special CCW in the form of her C'Tan blade she gets an additional attack in close combat using the characteristics of her "special" CCW.

"Fighting with Two Single-Handed Weapons" BRB pg. 42

"Does the Callidus Assassin’s neural shredder count as a single or two-handed weapon?" Daemonhunter FAQ pg. 2

 

- You may move any unit on the table 6". Drop Pod units are in reserve, not on the table. As an independent character Eldrad is a unit, as is the unit it is joined to, or taken as a group they are a unit. There are no restrictions on this move, other than those explicitly listed. Units in transports are considered deployed and on the table and AWIYE uses the word "move" explicitly. Eldrad detaching from his unit and moving 6" out of the transport would be a legal "move" during the opposing player's movement phase. This is what AWIYE can do for you.

[Uncle Mel]

As an independent character Eldrad is a unit, as is the unit it is joined to, or taken as a group they are a unit. There are no restrictions on this move, other than those explicitly listed. Units in transports are considered deployed and on the table and AWIYE uses the word "move" explicitly. Eldrad detaching from his unit and moving 6" out of the transport would be a legal "move" during the opposing player's movement phase. This is what AWIYE can do for you.

 

In the rulebook p48: if an IC joins a unit he becomes part of that unit, basically forming one single unit.

 

I don't think awiye can detach a single model from a unit, be it an IC or a veteran sergeant for that matter.

 

My thoughts.

 

Mel

[Hellbreaker]

Going first against Eldrad Eldar, AWIYE allows you to pull Eldrad into the open, by himself, out of a waveserpent and then open fire on him before he can fortune himself. You only need 9 wounds to kill him and he's tough 4. It's better if you have a psycannon or at the least psybolts on a Godhammer's Heay Bolter. On the same not you can pull a Space Marine Captain and their unit out of a Rhino or LR and then hit them with a Demolisher or other likewise powerful round.

:lol: what you can redeploy units not change what hq joined what unit or pull them out of transports . if eldrad worked like that you could take stuff out of drop pods , before drop pod assault .

 

The heretic is back... *refers to himself*

 

Eldrad lets you re-deploy D3 of YOUR OWN units. :D

 

Well it is nice to move stuff, so what you said I can pull guys OUT of their transports? AWIYE just sounds more and more appealing and worth the cost of the assassin by itself...

 

Now it's just that I have to get a model for it...

[Aidoneus]

Uncle Mel is right; if an IC has joined a unit he counts as being part of that unit. So no ripping characters out of their squads.

 

Also, AWIYE says you may move the unit, not disembark it. Disembarking is a special rule in the transports section of the BBB; it is NOT part of "moving." So the callidus can't do that either.

 

What you can do is to move the transport, and the unit will be dragged along with it, essentially letting you move 2 "units" instead of 1. But this isn't nearly as beardy as some of the other things you can do with the callidus, like ruining heavy weapons teams' position, putting bikers in difficult terrain (keep in mind, a dangerous terrain check when you "move" them, and then another when they "move" out, not to mention they can't turbo-boost), or simply moving a unit out of cover and grouping them together, ready for some first-turn ordnance fun. :lol:

[revnow]

@Mel: While that is true, because the IC technically can legally move away from the squad during the player's movement phase it can be affected as an individual unit for the purpose of AWIYE.

[jeffersonian000]

On models: I use a Jakara Spyrer as my Callidus (and a Malcadon Spyrer as an Evesor, a Yeld Spyrer as a Vindicar, and an Orrus Spyrer as an Inquisitor w/ psycannon). I played Nercomunda quite a bit when it was new, and I hate to paint, so reusing my favorite gang which is painted as Ordo agents is just spot on for me.

 

On topic: one thing I noted above is that by my reading of the DH FAQ, when a Callidus "Jumps Back" during an opponents turn, she cannot be consolidated into by the unit she just left yet she can be charged by another enemy that is nearby and not engage in an assault. Despite GW's wording, it's actually pretty clear when you re-read the Assault rules and apply the Jump Back special rule with the FAQ clarification.

 

SJ

[Aidoneus]

Again, an IC leaving a unit is not synonymous with, nor part of, moving. It happens at the same time, but it's a completely different rule. Because you can only force a unit to move, and you cannot force an IC to leave a unit, AWIYE cannot be used like this.

 

If you need more proof, simply read on page 48 in the BBB, where it says, "An independent character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it." Note, his special ability to leave a unit can only be used during the movement phase, which is most definitely NOT when AWIYE is being used.

[veidin]

On models: I use a Jakara Spyrer as my Callidus (and a Malcadon Spyrer as an Evesor, a Yeld Spyrer as a Vindicar, and an Orrus Spyrer as an Inquisitor w/ psycannon). I played Nercomunda quite a bit when it was new, and I hate to paint, so reusing my favorite gang which is painted as Ordo agents is just spot on for me.

 

On topic: one thing I noted above is that by my reading of the DH FAQ, when a Callidus "Jumps Back" during an opponents turn, she cannot be consolidated into by the unit she just left yet she can be charged by another enemy that is nearby and not engage in an assault. Despite GW's wording, it's actually pretty clear when you re-read the Assault rules and apply the Jump Back special rule with the FAQ clarification.

 

SJ

 

Right she cant be consolidated into BUT lets say she jumps back at the beginning of the assault phase, why can the unit she jumped back from not charge into her? The opponent doesnt have to consolidate, they may if they choose, but since the jump back happened at the beginning of the opponent assault phase, they still get their 6" assault move, which even on a roll of 6 for jump back you get charged.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Perhaps because you can only declare assault moves for units in the assault phase that are not in an assault at the beginning of the phase. Essentially you declare the assault moves, then you work out any assaults that are in existance. Since the unit was locked in an assault at the beginning of the assault phase, it doesn't get to start an assault, dispite the fact that the Callidus is performing a Hit and Run. Granted I don't read up on the Callidus since I don't own one...

 

It's similar to Seraphim though, which I am familiar with. Hit and Run is best used by them to get to re-charge into an existing melee, or to exit during the opponents turn so that you may re-shoot and enter into combat with another charge bonus. Granted the Callidus's sneaky business happens at the beginning instead of at the end...

 

Meh, I'm going to stop now before I perform a foot in mouth maneuver.

[revnow]

@Aidoneus

Your own post explains exactly why AWIYE can be used that way.

 

A IC can "move" away from a unit during the movement phase. "Moving" can only happen during the movement phase, and yet AWIYE allows you to move a unit. A transport can be moved with AWIYE with the unit inside it and yet a unit can also be moved outside the transport. A unit can be moved with an IC joined, and an IC can be moved out of a unit as both are legal "moves" that can be made in the movement phase. "Move" is the operative word used in both the paragraph and the rules for AWIYE. Disjoining from a unit isn't a special ability, its a legal movement available to your opponent during the movement phase. That makes it available to the Callidus assassin.

[jeffersonian000]

'Inquisitor NicolePyykkonen is basically correct. The rule for Jump Back states that the unit the Callidus leaves can only consolidate and the current 5th Ed rules state that no unit may consolidate into close combat. All the FAQ states (if poorly worded) is that the Callidus may be assaulted by a non-engaged unit.

 

In plan English, at the start of your opponent's assault phase, you may "Jump Back" your Callidus from a close combat she is in on a roll greater than 1 on a d6. The unit she leaves may only consolidate if they are left unengaged when the Callidus leaves combat. At this point, if there are any other unengaged enemy units that are eligible to assault the Callidus, they may do so at that time.

 

And of course, if you jump her back during your assault phase, she can charge back into close combat with the same unit she just left as it is still the beginning of your assault phase.

 

Functionally, the FAQ sets a specific time in the Assault Move sequence in which Jump Back occurs.

 

SJ

[Aidoneus]

Leaving a unit is not the same as moving. The one happens when the other does, but the two are not the same. AWIYE lets you move, but says nothing about leaving units. Just because you can move the character doesn't mean you also get to use his ability to leave units. That's special. So AWIYE lets the unit (the ENTIRE unit) move, but not use any special abilities, like an IC separating from the squad.

[revnow]

It is exactly the same thing because your own quote from the BRB says that it is. All a special character needs to do to leave a unit is "move" outside of 2 inches of it. This movement is allowed because technically the IC and joined unit are separate units evened if they are temporarily joined. AWIYE doesn't say anything about removing units from transports either, or changing the ordering of models (bunching them up) when a unit is moved because it doesn't need to. Those are options available to a player when "moving" units during the movement phase and are therefore available to the Callidus. Retinue rules are evidence of this fact. There would be no reason to distinguish between a retinue and a joined unit if the IC and unit could always be considered 1 "unit". But, there is a significant difference as to how that IC operates when joined to a unit or with a retinue. Because an IC is treated as a separate "unit" in close combat (for absolutely all purposes a unit with a joined IC in CC is considered to be in a multiple combat), because they can "move" away from their unit during the movement phase, and because they can start the game joined to that or any other unit (or no unit at all) they and their joined squad can be considered two separate units when using AWIYE and the IC can be disembarked by themselves from a transport within which they were joined to that squad.

 

All of the following can be targeted by AWIYE

A transport with unit and attached IC inside

The unit and attached IC

The IC by itself

The unit by itself

 

This is because your opponent could legally make any of those move 6" during their movement phase in any number of ways, including getting in and out of the transport, joined or by themselves, and all of them would be considered moving 1 "unit" 6". There are two questions that need to be asked in this type of scenario to legitimize AWIYE.

Q: Will Eldrad, Corbulo, Vulkan, some IC end the movement in the owning player's deployment zone?

A: Yes

 

Q: Could the owning player have legally moved (the operative word) that model by themselves out of the transport during their movement phase

A: Yes

Then the move is a legal use of AWIYE

 

Even if you want to call joining and disjoining from a squad a "special ability" it's part of the normal rules for how ICs can be moved because they are separate units. If nothing else it solidifies the legitimacy of my suggested use of AWIYE because it both identifies the IC as a uniquely separate unit (that can therefore be targeted by AWIYE) and explicitly uses to word "move" when describing the process by which an IC is joined to/disjoined from a unit.

[Uncle Mel]

Good morning guys (it's now 8 in the morning in Holland),

 

I've read your posts Revnov and i see your point. you state that you use the move ability on an IC in a unit. However I (and Aidoneus) believe that the wording of AWIYE: "The CA can move one enemy unit up to 6" this completely contradicts with your reasoning because the IC within a unit is not a unit in itself it is part of the bigger unit, therefore you can move the unit but not the IC.

 

You use specific events in the assault phase and movement phase to illustrate your point of them being two different units. However the timing of AWIYE is in neither of these phases, it is before the battle has started.

 

Maybe we will disagree forever on this, maybe not.

 

Regards

 

Mel

[veidin]

'Inquisitor NicolePyykkonen is basically correct. The rule for Jump Back states that the unit the Callidus leaves can only consolidate and the current 5th Ed rules state that no unit may consolidate into close combat. All the FAQ states (if poorly worded) is that the Callidus may be assaulted by a non-engaged unit.

 

In plan English, at the start of your opponent's assault phase, you may "Jump Back" your Callidus from a close combat she is in on a roll greater than 1 on a d6. The unit she leaves may only consolidate if they are left unengaged when the Callidus leaves combat. At this point, if there are any other unengaged enemy units that are eligible to assault the Callidus, they may do so at that time.

 

And of course, if you jump her back during your assault phase, she can charge back into close combat with the same unit she just left as it is still the beginning of your assault phase.

 

Functionally, the FAQ sets a specific time in the Assault Move sequence in which Jump Back occurs.

 

SJ

 

Again, you're wrong about this, straight from DH and WH codex states quote, " If this leaves the enemy unit unengaged, they MAY make a consolidate move at the end of the assault phase." Nowhere does it state that they can ONLY make a consolidate move. Says they may, therefore giving a choice to forego assaulting and consolidate D6" in any direction. As far as I can tell an assassin that jumps back from an enemy unit happens at the beginning of the assault phase. Said enemy unit is still in the beginning of their assault phase since the jump back does not negate the enemy units assault phase, and chooses to use its assault phase to have its 6" assault movement, or subsequently it may forego this for a consolidate move. Im just not seeing how you're getting this rule that if you jump back in the enemy phase they lose their assault phase basically. It's not worded that way nor does it say they cannot re-charge the assassin.

 

Plus as you stated the assassin can jump back, then re-charge since its still the beginning of her assault phase it is only correct to rule that the enemy is allowed its recharge at the beginning of their assault phase should the assassin jump back.

 

EDIT: Just found this on the DH FAQ/Errata on GW site.

 

Q. If a Callidus disengages from close combat at

the start of her Assault phase, can she then

declare a charge against an enemy unit?

A. Yes. Conversely, if it is her opponent’s Assault

phase and the enemy unit she was fighting is left

unengaged it is then free to declare a charge.

[Gentlemanloser]

There is no way AWIYE can detach ICs from Units they have joined, nor take them out of a Transport. AWIYE effects a unit, which is a single entity. Be it a Transport conatining others, a single IC, a group of ICs that have joined together, or a squad plus any ICs.

 

Deployment shows this, where joined 'stuff' counts as a single 'unit' for deployment rules. (Edit: It's like telling the Eldar player that using Eldrad to redeploy the Falcon containing Feugan and some Fire Dragons uses all three redeployments...)

 

Plus if you're facing Eldrad anyway, you'll have to dice off AWIYE versus his redeploy. You use AWIYE, he redeploys the unit back to it's original position again...

 

There would be no reason to distinguish between a retinue and a joined unit if the IC and unit could always be considered 1 "unit".

 

The two reaosns for this, off the top of my head, are;

 

1) The IC can never leave a Retinue. Ever.

2) The IC doesn't count as an IC in Assault.

[gil galed]

I'm sorry but i'm pretty sure your wrong about AWIYE, it is commonly accepted that lash can draw out ics right? well at least i've seen it allowed at tournaments and BolS seem to agree,

 

AWIYE: Exact Wording

"The player with the callidus assassin can move one enemy unit up to 6" after both sides have deployed, but before the first turn starts. The units new position must be within the normal deployment zone, and the owning player may choose the facing of the unit after it has been moved"

 

Lash: Exact Wording

"A psyker may use this psychic power in the shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon. Pick any non-vehicle enemy unit visible to the psyker and within 24", and then take a psychic test in order to use the power. If the test if successful, the target is moved 2d6" by the chaos player. This move is not slowed by difficult terrain, but dangerous terrain tests are taken as normal. Victims may not be moved off the table, into impassable terrain or within 1" of enemy models. After this, the affected unit must take a pinning test"

 

From this i think that it's clear either they both allow movement of IC's or both don't, and i'm of the opinion that they are still seperate units, just not for certain wound allocation and targetting purposes, but the wording allows any unit and thus bypasses this thus you can seperate ic's

 

from BoLS

"Where is everybody? I said charge!": Move Independent Character 6" forward so he is the closest target to your entire army. This works nicely with deadly long-range shooting like multiple Exorcists. This is definitely a dirty trick and can cause some pretty dramatic reactions in a tournament setting (insert evil laugh)."

[Gentlemanloser]

There's no way I'd let lash pick out an IC...

 

It's a shooting attack, and can't (unlike Telion/Vinidares) pick an IC out of a squad they're attached to.

 

:/

[Gaz1858]

I would say she is definately worth the cost.

 

The 6" post deployment move can be useful but the ability to appear aywhere and attack immediately is priceless. Obviously dont charge into 5 Th/SS termy as you wont win but a dev squad, sternguard or that troops choice thats holding an obj are prime candidates.

[Uncle Mel]

I'm sorry but i'm pretty sure your wrong about AWIYE, it is commonly accepted that lash can draw out ics right? well at least i've seen it allowed at tournaments and BolS seem to agree,

 

Bols is a group of gamers as well, just with a highly established blog, not everything they sai is by definition true.

 

My opinion has not altered, in fact i think lash shouldn't affect ic's in units either.

 

Mel

[antique_nova]

from experience, i have learnt that, NEVER SHOOT THE UNIT YOUR CHARGING!. I mean it seriously. you only charge a unit that you know will fall or crumble under your assassin and they know that and will usually fail morale check or choose to. Cos you will probably want to hit a character. I did this against sicarius and his sternguard, killed two sternguard and they moved out of assault range, then killed me in the following assault phase when they charged me. After my assassin saved three melta rounds!

Anyway for those of you that will soon to be jealous of me, this is what i have :): enjoy cursing me ^^.

4 callidus assassin

2 vindicare

1 eversor

i used these guys all in one apocalpyse store game. They were sick together, nothing could stop it and not one guy took a wound ^^.

 

now waiting for

2 more vindicare

4 celexus

and gonna do an army of 100 eversor assassins to recreate a 40k story.

^^

 

thanks

antique_nova

[revnow]

I'm sure there will be people that inevitably disagree with me on this until the end of time, but those people are depriving themselves of one of AWIYE's most valuable abilities. So lets go through this a bit more.

 

On Lash vs. AWIYE

The general consensus is correct, you cannot lash an IC out of a unit. This is because lash is a shooting psychic power, and the rules state that shooting attacks cannot target ICs attached to a unit. This is what makes lash a weak comparison to AWIYE. AWIYE is not a shooting power and there is absolutely no precedent or even mention in the rules that says that it cannot be used on an IC. However, there is a wide area of precedent for the position that it can target ICs provided in the rules for moving an independent character. It comes down to this question.

Do the rulles allow a owning player move the IC and the unit they are attached to as two separate units during the movement phase?

Yes

 

On the retinue comparison

@Gentlemanloser: Your comment about the retinue is exactly my point. There is a distinction between a retinue and an IC joined to a unit precisely because the IC is considered a separate unit for the assault and potentially movement phase. This makes the IC targetable. If iCs were not separate units then they would follow the retinue rules and be forced to deploy, move, shoot, and assault with that same unit in every game. Because these don't apply and the IC can deploy with any unit or by themself, they are a separate unit targetable by AWIYE.

 

The Falcon can be targeted as a single unit just like AWIYE could target the falcon as a single unit, or the joined unit inside, or the IC. During your opponents movement phase any of those 6" moves would be considered moving 1 unit 6". Also, explain why AWIYE can't take a unit out of a transport.

 

On Eldrad. While I think there's a good argument to be made that AWIYE goes after Divination, now isn't really the place, so suffice to say that I accept that the Callidus has to dice off against Eldrad. But, Divination actually provides strong evidence to support my position. Divination explicitly uses the word "re-position" as opposed to "move". "Re-position" makes Divination equivalent to re-deploying 1+D3 units, as that there is no distance limitations, provided that the units end in their deployment zone. "Move" makes AWIYE equivalent to your opponent moving a unit in the movement phase involuntarily, as there is a distance limit provided 6", the traditional movement available to most non specialized units.

 

All of the phrasing of AWIYE compared to its similar rules in combination with the rules for "moving" units supports that a Callidus can pull a squad or IC out of a transport.

[number6]

I'm sorry but i'm pretty sure your wrong about AWIYE, it is commonly accepted that lash can draw out ics right? well at least i've seen it allowed at tournaments and BolS seem to agree,

BoLS also insists that you can join a GK Hero to an IG platoon squad and the squad will benefit from The Shrouding. :wacko:

 

And we're also plenty aware of times where even GW itself misinterprets the RAW. (Like when they disallowed DH force weapons to do the RAW end-runaround of Eternal Warrior in their recent 40K tournaments at Warhammer World.)

 

Which is to say -- as in a current thread on exactly this topic -- that GW's rules are not written clearly enough to stand up to pure RAW debates. The best we can do is argue for intent, and that's oftentimes so subjective as to be meaningless. (FWIW, I don't believe the intent of AWIYE is to allow ICs to be yanked from the units they've joined. The rules verbiage seems clear enough to me. But I do see the opposing view, and wouldn't complain if someone really really wished to pull the maneuver against me.)

 

In any case, this debate about AWIYE and ICs has now officially devolved into Immovable Object vs Irresistible Force. So I'm going to ask that both sides desist repeating themselves, because that's all that is happening. If you can manage to muster something NEW to say, fine. But if all you're going to do is continue to repeat the same arguments ad infinitum, I'm going to shut the topic down. As stated in the B&C rules, productive discussion is the order of the day. On top of that, this rules query has pretty much totally derailed the original intent.

 

So, back on topic, please.

[Gentlemanloser]

@Gentlemanloser: Your comment about the retinue is exactly my point. There is a distinction between a retinue and an IC joined to a unit precisely because the IC is considered a separate unit for the assault and potentially movement phase. This makes the IC targetable. If iCs were not separate units then they would follow the retinue rules and be forced to deploy, move, shoot, and assault with that same unit in every game. Because these don't apply and the IC can deploy with any unit or by themself, they are a separate unit targetable by AWIYE.

 

An IC attached to a Squad, of two IC's attached to each other are no longer 'targettable'. They have become part of a single unit. The only times they can be singled out is as you say Assault and Voluntary movement.

 

From the IC & Shooting section;

 

"Independant Characters that have joined a unit are considered part of that unit and so may not be picked out as targets"

 

While AWIYE isn't a shooting attack, it can still only target a single unit, and it's quite obvious from here, and the joinging rules, that an IC joined to a unit becomes part of that unit they the whole is classed as one 'unit'.

 

The Falcon can be targeted as a single unit just like AWIYE could target the falcon as a single unit, or the joined unit inside, or the IC. During your opponents movement phase any of those 6" moves would be considered moving 1 unit 6". Also, explain why AWIYE can't take a unit out of a transport.

 

You could move the Falcon. But nothing inside. You can't target anything inside a Transport. Also, if you don't count the Falcon plus content as a single 'unit' you could never move one with AWIYE, as you would need to be able to move 2+ units in one go.

 

On Eldrad. While I think there's a good argument to be made that AWIYE goes after Divination, now isn't really the place, so suffice to say that I accept that the Callidus has to dice off against Eldrad. But, Divination actually provides strong evidence to support my position. Divination explicitly uses the word "re-position" as opposed to "move". "Re-position" makes Divination equivalent to re-deploying 1+D3 units, as that there is no distance limitations, provided that the units end in their deployment zone. "Move" makes AWIYE equivalent to your opponent moving a unit in the movement phase involuntarily, as there is a distance limit provided 6", the traditional movement available to most non specialized units.

 

Or you coupld positit that the distinction is just as you say above. Redeploy gives you unlimited 'move', AWIYE doesn't.

 

Edit: Posted after Number6. Removed section which offered nothing new tot he discussion.

[Hellbreaker]

o... k...

 

Well anyway, I agree with number6... Please...

 

So since I've heard now for the last couple of posts the Callidus is worth it if you have a battle plan(No sh*t sherlock!) and AWIYE is worth the cost alone... AWESOME!

 

I deem the topic... UNNECESSARY! Fell free to lock it, I've made up my mind...

 

Cheers!