Double Landraider Lists

[Br.Pat]

... or are they incredibly effective?

 

I've been trying out this 1500 list with 2 Land Raiders for a few games and I've only lost about 1 game out of 7. I usually play with 1 normal Landraider and 1 Crusader (that's used as a transport with 5 Assault Terminators and a Chaplain).

 

5th edition makes LRs extremely durable and you'd be hard pressed much damage to them with anything apart from melta weapons.

[Aidoneus]

Let's ignore the fact that you're late to the party, and embrace the fact you came at all. :)

 

Seriously though, I don't mean to jest at your expense. It's just that we've all known this for a while now. It was one of the big revelations of 5th edition. With the new PotMS, the new vehicle damage charts, the increase in cover saves, the need to capture and hold objectives, etc... all of these things combine to make dual- or tri-raider lists very powerful.

 

That being said, the metagame has shifted. What this means is that people know land raiders are powerful, so they know they will be facing a lot of them, meaning they will come prepared. Expect to see LOTS of melta weapons around these days. This counter-balances things a bit. So while land raiders are still plenty effective, they aren't quite the game-dominating-units they were 9 months ago.

[Br.Pat]

Yeah but I never see many of these di or tri landraider lists on the army list page :)

[Pigeons]

not everyone can afford a pair of land raiders :D

[DevianID]

I see several double landraider lists... usually they are vulkan lists, with THSS termies in both, preferrably redeemers.

 

As others have said, landraiders are a metagame choice. They are supposedly hard to kill, but how hard something is to kill is based almost completely on the enemies army. So if the enemy is without melta and only has a few s9 lascannons, then the raiders may well as be as tough as titans. Or, if the enemy has 12ish melta attacks, the raider may well have been a rhino.

 

So really, I think that the reason to take a raider needs to be based on more than just how hard they are to kill. You also need to be making good use of the transport capacity, to transport things that dont have access to other transports; aka terminators. But to put something like a tac squad in a land raider to me is a really risky play, as any enemy with a melta focus (most people nowadays) will nuke the raider as easily as a rhino, losing you over 200 points.

[Balog]

What are the thoughts on using the land raider with the flamestorm cannon (Redeemer, right?) in a Vulkan list? Does the "counts as twin linked" thing apply to the flamestorm cannon?

[yergerjo]

It does not count as twin linked, but I use it for 5 SS/TH myself. Drive right up and get into their face, 10 points more and you get a MM for the reg price of a LR. Thats the big reason you see Redeemers, most folks don't place much stock in them, but they can be great as Str 6 and AP anything MEQ dies and you have a 1/3 chance of penetrating most rear armors.

[Koremu]

The arguement people make against the Redeemer is that it just doesn't have the rolling firepower that the Crusader has, which is true - when moving at 12" a turn, the Crusader does have more Bolter shots.

 

But moving at 6" a turn whilst supporting your transported unit, the Redeemer has out and out more firepower where it counts. The Flamestorms are just outright sick.

 

And emperor help your enemy if he's inside Flamestorm range and trying to get a Melta attack going. 'cos Brother, if you miss, you're so much ash.

[Giga]

The arguement people make against the Redeemer is that it just doesn't have the rolling firepower that the Crusader has, which is true - when moving at 12" a turn, the Crusader does have more Bolter shots.

Moving 12" is cruising speed, at which point you can fire only one weapon (thanks to PotMS).

 

The defensive weapon rule only works if you've moved 6".

 

Hence, both the redeemer and the crusader can only fire one weapon if they've moved 12".

 

Page 58 of the AoBR rulebook;

 

"A vehicle that has moved at combat speed can fire all of its defensive weapons in addition to the single weapon it is usually allowed to fire."

[Koremu]

Shows how infrequently I both with Storm Bolters on my vehicles. :lol:

[earthen]

yeah, double LR lists work and I happen to be one of the players running vulkan with lrc+hammernatorsx2 @ 1850.

 

Like people have mentioned, the community has learned to counter LR lists (Cheap MMs - i.e. dreads, bikes, MGx2 in Plaguemarine squads, etc) about 6 months ago, and so LR lists in tourneys have been really hit or miss lately. It seems right now if you want to run LR rush at 1850 you really need to go overboard and take vindies or ironclads along too. Hopefully with the advent of guard and more horde armies popping up, players start trading in their meltas for flamers. Then LR rush will likely see a surge in power again. The meta game is constantly shifting, keep that in mind.

[tedwin183]

I, too, am an advocate of the dual LR Vulkan list. The problem I see with the gripe that "everyone brings melta and that kills LR's" is kind of dumb. People act like the only thing they have in their lists is 2 land raiders and nothing else. You can bring things to deal with those squads with melta weapons and you CAN maneuver so that it takes considerably more effort for your opponent to get them in range. My dual raider list is dominating right now, even against brightlances.

[Br.Pat]

I, too, am an advocate of the dual LR Vulkan list. The problem I see with the gripe that "everyone brings melta and that kills LR's" is kind of dumb. People act like the only thing they have in their lists is 2 land raiders and nothing else. You can bring things to deal with those squads with melta weapons and you CAN maneuver so that it takes considerably more effort for your opponent to get them in range. My dual raider list is dominating right now, even against brightlances.

 

QFT

 

I once fought a Dark Eldar player with 8-9 Dark Lances in his list. I think he only managed to knock off one weapon from a LR. Sure Meltaguns > Lances in AT, but you -do- have to get in range with those Meltas.

[ghost9pm]

I refuse to take multiple Land Raiders or any Special Characters that cost more than 150 points and I wish more people would do the same.

 

Not because I don't think they're not good or not worth the points but people use them as a crutch so that they don't have to use any tactics. Just take the biggest tank or the most ridiculously overpowered character you can find and ram them down the opponents throat.

 

If you do that you don't really have to think about what units complement each other or whether your list is cost-effective and what its weaknesses and strengths are. Just look for the biggest, toughest thing in the codex and get alot of that.

 

Remember in tournaments your opponents grade you on sportsmanship so you can dominate every single game and still not win the tournament because your opponents felt that you abused the list and docked you on sportsmanship points. I've seen it happen plenty of times.

[Giga]

I refuse to take multiple Land Raiders or any Special Characters that cost more than 150 points and I wish more people would do the same.

 

Not because I don't think they're not good or not worth the points but people use them as a crutch so that they don't have to use any tactics. Just take the biggest tank or the most ridiculously overpowered character you can find and ram them down the opponents throat.

 

If you do that you don't really have to think about what units complement each other or whether your list is cost-effective and what its weaknesses and strengths are. Just look for the biggest, toughest thing in the codex and get alot of that.

 

Remember in tournaments your opponents grade you on sportsmanship so you can dominate every single game and still not win the tournament because your opponents felt that you abused the list and docked you on sportsmanship points. I've seen it happen plenty of times.

This post is so full of wrong, that I can't even laugh.

[ghost9pm]

Hey I'm willing to discuss it if you are. You can start a new thread if you want.

 

I just think it robs the strategy from the game. If you can tell me why it doesn't I'm willing to listen.

[Vel'Cona]

Off Topic post is Off Topic.

[Fintan]

Off-topic post has a point though. Winning games with a Space Marine army that is 50% 1st Company and led by the one-and-only Forgefather isn't exactly cool is it? How many fluffy situations can you honestly imagine where 10-14 Assault Terminators in Landraiders are running around with the Forgefather, supported by maybe two tactical squads and a couple of other regular company components? I liked the old edition rule where special characters could only be taken in games of certain points values, I personally think they should do the same with certain units, terminators/Landraiders being one of them!

[Giga]

Hey I'm willing to discuss it if you are. You can start a new thread if you want.

 

I just think it robs the strategy from the game. If you can tell me why it doesn't I'm willing to listen.

In short, having two (or more) land raiders costs 480-500 points at the minimum (and since you'll be equipping them with extra armor and multimeltas that's another 50 points in the equation). This means your army will be smaller in numbers and firepower, and actually more delicate despite the presence of two big tanks. In addition, these supposedly indestructible tanks are extremely easy to deal with if shot at by a couple of melta weapons or assaulted by monstrous creatures (which is rather prone to happen, since the LR's assault transport nature means it'll be close to enemy lines and hence exposed to all kinds of punishment). This requires careful deployment, anticipating what the enemy will do, and moving/positioning your entire army in such a way that your LRs have constant cover saves. You effectively have to be able to support your LRs, using the rest of your army to remove possible threats, while the LRs complete their mission.

 

Which brings us to the second problem with the land raiders; their lack of firepower. The redeemer is the only land raider with a truly huge kill potential, but it's range is extremely limited. The crusader barely has more firepower then a tactical squad, and the classic is pretty much specialized for anti-vehicle/MC. In addition, they will be moving most of the time, hence meaning they can fire fewer weapons. For 250 points, one can get a lot killier, more versatile stuff (such as speeders, bikes, sternguard, predators, devastators, etc.).

 

What I'm trying to say is, a LR is not a monolith. You can't just throw it on the table and let it play for itself. Sure, beginners or just plain bad players won't be able to deal with two rushing LRs, but any smart guy will have plenty of meltas, lascannons, lances, and other anti-tank stuff to immobilize/destroy your LRs if you don't protect them properly. A LR is a tradeoff; you trade firepower and lots of points, for assault transport capability and moderate survivability.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, I believe your idea about not taking special characters and HQs more expensive then 150 points actually takes a lot depth from the game. What, we're not supposed to get a bike captain with relic blade, even though it opens up the tactical option of having scoring bikers, just because he costs 165 pts? The special characters might be too good for the price, but in effect they change the way your army works, and hence open up new playstyles and previously unavailable tactics, and in my opinion most of them require more skill and thought to play then just using a standard HQ.

 

Take pedro cantor, for example. He's a chapter master with a crappy weapon choice (a power fist means he's wasting his I5) and only a 3+/4++ save. He makes sternguard scoring - which changes the way your entire army works and opens previously unavailable tactical options in the way you use your sternies - and you have to constantly think about positioning him (and therefore your entire army) in such a way that takes the greatest advantage of his +attack aura. Does a standard chapter master really takes more skill and forethought to use then pedro? Does he open up more options? No way.

[ShinyRhino]

I recently faced a dual-Landraider list that featured Kantor and an Honour Guard in one, and nothing in the other. Granted, it was against a newish former-Tau player, but it was not pretty. The game was a draw because it was a two-objective deal, each at opposite far corners of the board. I deployed light on my own side after seeing his massed assault on my objective, and deployed heavy on his. I completely ignored the Land Raiders. By the time he managed to clear out my objective (of a Dread, one Telion sniper squad, and a las/plas tac squad), There wasn't nearly enough time left for him to reach his own objective with reinforcements to shift me off it after I burned out his lone defending scout squad.

 

This illustrates the need for tactics and experience when fielding dual Land Raiders. They are not instant win. Newer players see the AV14 all round and think nothing can touch them. Clip a meltabomb to the side with your lowly tac sergeant with bolt pistol and chainsword and see what happens.

[earthen]

Ive got to take the side of Giga and ShinyRhino here.

 

Remember in tournaments your opponents grade you on sportsmanship so you can dominate every single game and still not win the tournament because your opponents felt that you abused the list and docked you on sportsmanship points. I've seen it happen plenty of times.

 

If you dock someone their sportsmanship points because they brought a 200 point HQ you should just get kicked out of the tournament, and go play a tournament with your friends in your basement.

 

The above points of a double LR list are true, very true - and for alot of SM lists, mech is the only solution for lash in a tournament. Cant rely on a libby because of those eldar :/

 

Anyway back on topic - Double LR can be VERY fragile. See what happens when one LR gets popped in front of a horde guard army. Think those terminators are going to see another turn?

 

What happens when a 120 point chaos termicide squad/ 150 point MM dread/60 point MM speeder/60 ish point Tau Fusionblaster suit, (need i go on?) drops in and immobilizes even just one your LRs on turn 1? think your opponent is going to charge in to give your termies a chance to assault? or would they more likely lash them into a group and bombard them with plasma?

 

What happens when your x2 LRC list - (light on the shooting) gets assaulted by MCs that you cant shoot down? - sure the hammernators will kill the MC, but you are now footslogging. Foot slogging termies far from an objective gives you nothing at all. Congrats, your opponent just traded a 180 point MC for your 260 point LR and made your 200 point terminator squad useless. thats like a 255% return on your points. (shame on you for letting your LR bite an assault by an MC which your termies should be getting the assault on. diff story though.)

 

And even then, there are lists like horde ork with Loota spam or footslogging IG that IGNORE LRS ENTIRELY, because there is no way on the emperor's golden and overly embellished earth for a LRC to kill enough orks hiding in cover to even get close to its worth in points back.

 

What about footslogging ig with 2 Valkries+vets+melta guns flying in to pop your LRs early - think that list might be an auto loose for a LR list - absolutely.

 

What about a Dual LR list playing a non-LR vulkan list? think the other vulkan list is going to have a hell of alot more MMs than you? absolutely. will they win? they certainly should.

 

Does a standard chapter master really takes more skill and forethought to use then pedro? Does he open up more options? No way.

quoted for truth and a perfect example of why Ghost9PM is very very misguided.

 

Newer players see the AV14 all round and think nothing can touch them.

 

again, a great point

 

 

GRANTED - bringing a LR heavy list to a shop probably isnt going to earn you alot of friends if your shop is more built on fluff than gameplay. Of COURSE if you bring a list which includes, oh, i dont know... a tri las pred.... maybe a 5 man vanguard with 5 power weapons, a chaplain in termie armor with two thunderhammers, a whirlwind, a 10 strong group of shotgun scouts, a dreadnought with a ML and heavy flamer, a bike squad with no special weapons other than a Sgt. with meltabombs, maybe a solo vindie, and try to footslog a lone marenus calgar across the table - oh and dont forget to drop pod in that venerable dead with extra armor, lascannon-ML so you can get some sickkk rear armor shots off - double LR is going to be super hard. I.E. if your list is really, really bad, then of course a list like SM LR rush (which isnt really top tier tourney, id call it second or third tier tourney) is going to kick your ass around.

 

So its a given then, that people who try to recreate the legendary scout sgt. Rock Mcbeast's heroic stand against twin renegade land raiders are bound to be sad and dissapointed at the end of the night. (not saying that the hobby side is bad, this is just for an example)

 

Players worried about LR rush should seeeriously stop the pouting and learn some critical thinking skills. After all, if they're already pouting about LR rush (which chaos does 100x better than SM do anyway), they'll have a brain aneurysm once they play their first serious lash or ork list.

 

If you are going to make this kind of comment, at least show how you actually tried to solve the problem with some critical thinking skills. Regrettably this kind of comment tends to come from a kid who gets frustrated and mopes in the corner while he waits for his parents to help. Although in this case im not really sure you asked for help, its more of the case of child moping in the corner and threatening to take peoples sportsmanship scores away for wanting to play a more diversified and flavorful game.

 

I mean, hell, just take the time to ask a LR rush player what hes afraid of - and their response will give you a laundry list of ideas to counter LR rush with.

 

The existence of so many possible counters is the reason why you dont see SM players at the top of GTs - so have faith and open your eyes!

[Br.Pat]

I agree completely.

 

And I think I will call my scout seargent Rock McBeast in your honour.