Crimson Fury Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Hey there, I was playing against a friend's imperial guard army last night and we were stumped by the base height of the Vendetta. Seeing as though it says the Vendetta is a skimmer in the rulebook is the base just to support the model and the base would actually be only 2" off the ground like a Tau's skimmer such as a devilfish or hammerhead. The scenario was he wanted to shoot my Terminators but there was a tactical squad in front of those terminators, seeing as though it was a skimmer it would surely have to shoot through the tactical squad otherwise, you could base hammerheads like the current Vendetta and nothing would ever get a cover save because the base is so high. So my question really is do you shoot from the base, which would have to shoot through the Tactical squad and give the terminators a cover save, or would you shoot from the actually Vendetta. I just can't see how you could shoot from the actual vendetta because you could make a custom stand for anything that's a skimmer, such as landspeeders or anything and it would be near impossible to get a cover save from their weaponry. My other point is you could actually shave down the base of the vendetta to the appropriate height, possibly making the model unsupported and look stupid but it would be correct for a skimmer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170566-vendetta-base-height/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
rat of vengence Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Don't you have to base the models with the base they come with? Or have I got that wrong...? RoV Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170566-vendetta-base-height/#findComment-2014818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banville Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Yeah, as far as I know you have to use the base as supplied. So the Vendetta can shoot but you can also shoot at it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170566-vendetta-base-height/#findComment-2014860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott-S6 Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Yep, Vends and Valks are almost flyers and with the big base they can shoot at almost anything. Flip side is they aren't going to get cover ever unless you've got some huge scenery. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170566-vendetta-base-height/#findComment-2014924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Fury Posted June 8, 2009 Author Share Posted June 8, 2009 Ah yes you do have a valid point, they negate the cover by being on a tall base but by being so tall they can't get cover themselves Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170566-vendetta-base-height/#findComment-2014926 Share on other sites More sharing options...
yergerjo Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 There is also the question about range. Since you should measure to the hull for range, meltaguns from infantrymen will not reach melta range against them unless they are directly under it...maybe not even then. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170566-vendetta-base-height/#findComment-2014958 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OwlandMoonGuy Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 The problem here is a bit more far reaching and again, yet another example of how underdone the TLoS rules are. Since the Valk is a transport, models embarking & disembarking must be placed within 2” of the hull. This isn’t possible given its unique flying base. Take this for what it’s worth but the Bell of Lost Souls guys came up with the following rulings to govern their planned tourney event: Q: Can I use my Valkyrie or Vendetta without a flying base?A: No. Any Valkyrie or Vendetta must be mounted on a flying base similar in height to the one supplied in the current Games Workshop plastic kit, and have a base no smaller than the one supplied in the current Games Workshop plastic kit. Q: Does a Vendetta have the same transport capacity (and restrictions), fire points and access points as a Valkyrie Assault Carrier? A: Yes. Q: What do I measure from when firing at, disembarking from, or passing near a Valkyrie and Vendetta? A: For the purposes of armor facing, disembarking, and the 1" rule, only count the hull of the vehicle -- ignore the tail and wings. For determining range to the model, use the model as normal. Ignore the height of the model when embarking or disembarking; models get in and out of Valkyries and Vendettas at the height of the base. Q: How do I assault a Valkyrie? A: Move into contact with the base of the model. Moving under the model to reach the base is fine. So take this for what it’s worth, not official but at least practical ways of ruling in this case. -OMG Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170566-vendetta-base-height/#findComment-2015186 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiveFleetEzekial Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 So, the guys at BoLS are going for the same thing I've been pushing since the thing came out and we all saw it had an actual 'base' like all infantry and (most) walkers. 'Measure to the base!' ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170566-vendetta-base-height/#findComment-2015580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HotSoup Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 In the game of 40k, you do not measure in 3D. As far as measuring is concerned, the game is flat. In this sense, you do not measure diagnally down for shooting from buildings, shooting at high up targets, or any range what-so-ever. It would be ineffective to do otherwise, and simply stupid. If you must, measure to the base. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170566-vendetta-base-height/#findComment-2015654 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiveFleetEzekial Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 It is neither ineffective, nor 'stupid'. Nowhere in ther rules do they tell you *how* to measure, in regards to horizontally Vs vertically or diagonaly. You simply measure from the closest point to the closest point, angle does not matter and is never stated as mattering anywhere. The game, for any purpose, is not 'flat'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170566-vendetta-base-height/#findComment-2015660 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honsou18 Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 wouldn't you target a valkyrie/vendetta like a flyer seeing as it is one and measure to the base and add 12"? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170566-vendetta-base-height/#findComment-2015751 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 wouldn't you target a valkyrie/vendetta like a flyer seeing as it is one and measure to the base and add 12"? Not if its an IG valkyrie/vendetta, as theyre skimmers not flyers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170566-vendetta-base-height/#findComment-2015755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OwlandMoonGuy Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 In the game of 40k, you do not measure in 3D. As far as measuring is concerned, the game is flat. In this sense, you do not measure diagnally down for shooting from buildings, shooting at high up targets, or any range what-so-ever. It would be ineffective to do otherwise, and simply stupid. If you must, measure to the base. It is neither ineffective, nor 'stupid'. Nowhere in ther rules do they tell you *how* to measure, in regards to horizontally Vs vertically or diagonaly. You simply measure from the closest point to the closest point, angle does not matter and is never stated as mattering anywhere. The game, for any purpose, is not 'flat'. The problem here is that it can be argued either way. All of the rules for “True Line of Sight” clearly denote that the rule applies in three dimensional space. See the illustration on BRB pg. 16. After the rules speak at length to tracing TLoS that way, it fails to carry that over clearly when determining range. Although, most of the rules for measuring range indicate that measurements are taken from, model-to-model and then even further goes on to be even more granular with vehicles. For them range is determined based on the literal position of the vehicle’s weapon mounts and fire points. When shooting at vehicles, you always measure, to the vehicle’s hull, which is therefore defined by the shape and position of the vehicle model itself. So if you always measure from model-to-model and models can be placed on wildly different heights of terrain it seems like measurements are to be taken literally, as they exist in real space. So are the rules 3D for determining LoS but only 2D when determining distances? Models like the Valk indicate to me that GW didn’t quite thing this one through in every case. -OMG Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170566-vendetta-base-height/#findComment-2016078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott-S6 Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 So, the guys at BoLS are going for the same thing I've been pushing since the thing came out and we all saw it had an actual 'base' like all infantry and (most) walkers. 'Measure to the base!' ;) No, they're saying "measure to the model". They're also saying that you can assault the base but that's standard skimmer rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170566-vendetta-base-height/#findComment-2016105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelmage99 Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Assaulting the Valk will never be a problem as the base can be assaulted. One less problem. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170566-vendetta-base-height/#findComment-2016385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
foster Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 I also had a small issue with the Valkerie base height but it it involved landing an orbital bombardment on it. Basically my opponant said if I missed with the centre of the template (which I did) I don't hit it at all, even with the edges of the template still hanging over the modal. He said something about the missile impacting on the ground and the valkerie flying too high for the explosion to do damage. Was this dude right? Do ordanance weapons miss skimmers completly if the centre of the blast marker misses? I don't have the rule book with me so I can't check for myself, can someone clear this up for me pls. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170566-vendetta-base-height/#findComment-2032145 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypher 102 Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 If the hole of the template is over the body of the skimmer then it takes the hit as normal. If not the hole but some of the template then it takes a half strength hit. He may be thinking of apocalypse fliers which can't be affected by templates at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170566-vendetta-base-height/#findComment-2032209 Share on other sites More sharing options...
foster Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 I remember hitting the rear armour with the template, so even with half-strength I would of glanced the Valkerie on a 5+. Thank you for clearing that issue up for me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170566-vendetta-base-height/#findComment-2032291 Share on other sites More sharing options...
foster Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 I remember hitting the rear armour with the template, so even with half-strength I would of glanced the Valkerie on a 5+. Thank you for clearing that issue up for me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170566-vendetta-base-height/#findComment-2032292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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