Long Range Anti-Tank really necessary?

[ghost9pm]

This is something that has been annoying me recently. I play Templars and have been told constantly by veteran players that every Space Marine list, no matter what the chapter, needs some sort of long range anti-tank weapons.

 

Most people take the Tri-Lascannon Annhilator, or Devastators, or if you're Templars the Venerable Dreadnought with Missile Launcher, Lascannon and Tank Hunter veteran skill.

 

I think it's completely unnecesary and a waste of points that could be better spent elsewhere.

 

165 points for an AV 12 Dreadnought that takes 2 shots per turn?

145 points for the Tri-Las that his limited fields of fire?

(Devastators are too easy to kill, and they're not in my codex anyway. lol)

 

No thanks.

 

There's a few problems with this idea that killing tanks from far away somehow makes your list better. A wrecked tank from meltabombs is just as wrecked as one from a lascannon.

 

The main problem with spending points on long range firepower is that its so easy to avoid. The enemy moves its tank into cover or screens his important stuff with less important stuff to get a cover save. Then next is line of sight. Your tank hunters aren't going to be able to see everything on the battlefield. A smart player will use the terrain to his advantage. And remember, if you fire through your own squads the enemy receives a 4+ cover save.

 

The next misconception is that just because its long range somehow means its safer from being destroyed. If your vehicles guns are in range, the enemies probably are too. In a 5th edition game the battlefield is much more dynamic than it used to be in 4th. Outflank, Deep Strike, and Infiltrate are much more common than they used to be. Just because there's nothing withing 36" of your tank this turn doesn't mean there won't be something sneaking up behind you next turn. Even if your tank doesn't die, it doesn't mean that it was useful or made up its points.

 

The game itself is alot faster as well. Alot of games end on turn 5. Do you really want to pay 150+ points for something that can't claim objectives, that has to sit still to be effective, and might not even kill anything the entire game? Believe it or not there's still footslogging armies out there, not everyone is completely meched out.

 

Okay. Enough griping. Here's what I do.

 

Vindicator.

 

I know, this is probably what you're thinking:

 

"w t f ? That's his solution? That's the Rhino with the big gun right? I read all that and his solution is a Vindicator? Forget this, I'm going to look at porn."

 

But wait a second, just hear me out (The porn will still be there). 2 out of 3 Standard Missions require you to move and capture objectives. And not to mention, who really plays Annihilation for fun? I sure don't. So you're going to be doing alot of moving and by turn 2 you and the enemy are going to be right on top of each other, so getting within the Demolisher's 24" range isn't that hard.

 

What I like about it is that it forces me to be aggressive, since I don't have the option to sit back and shoot. I have to go for the jugular. If you already run a mech list it will be even more useful because you can use it to shield your precious Rhinos. AV 13 is nothing to scoff at. If you take a Land Raider, which most of us do, you can hide 3 Rhinos back there and force the enemy to shoot at either your AV 14 Land Raider or you AV 13 Vindicator. That's a crappy choice.

 

The downside is that you have to scatter. But there's even an upside to its downside, if you follow me. Even if you scatter there's a chance that you can kill something else. That's a pretty big template and it's got to land somewhere. If you don't take out the Leman Russ you can at least kill some Guardsman as a consolation prize.

 

The Lascannon can't do that. You either hit or you miss. At least you have the opportunity to kill something else with the demolisher.

 

Demolisher is Strength 10 Ordnance so you roll 2D6 and pick the highest result for armor penetration. Pretty damn good. It also makes enemy Terminators scared to come out of the Land Raider. Nob bikers? Giant Tyranid squad? No problem! What other weapon can do that?

 

As a Black Templar player this fits perfectly with my aggressive style of play, but other chapters probably find it extremely useful as well.

 

Thanks for reading and let me know what you think.

[Jackelope King]

Good stuff. Las Cannons aren't good for much these days beyond stunning vehicles or popping light vehicles (and putting wounds on MCs, but that's another story). Only the new IG and very, very dedicated Marine forces can take Las Cannons in enough quantity to be worth it. Sure, las cannons still turn MC lists into dust, but in the face of mechanized armies, you need Melta weaponry en masse. Or to play Tau*.

 

*But I'd never suggest such heresy to brother marines. Heavens no.

[ghost9pm]

True. But unfortunately they're the most common anti-tank weapon for Space Marine players. It's funny that you mentioned meltas because GW is really forcing melta weapons down our throats. Unfortunately the most commonly stocked vehicle that is equipped with a melta weapon is the land speeder. Those are much too fragile to get within 12" of the enemy line. They're pretty much the Space Marine suicide bombers.

 

Attack bikes are much better but they're never stocked in both of the stores I go to! It's like GW forgot about them.

[Jackelope King]

I actually wound up converting my own attack bikes as attack quads. Sure, they take two regular bikes each to make, but they look a lot better than the silly sidecars. Plus, all my regular bikers ride Dark Elf cold ones, so I could spare the bikes.

 

And honestly, the Landspeeder is a pretty nasty vehicle. You have a lot of options to get it within 12" of the enemy in a hurry, and to get it near rear armor. And still pretty cheap. I personally prefer the attack bikes mostly because I'm trying to build a full bike army and the ability to stick an extra pair of wounds and relentless multi-melta in a bike squad is just too good to pass up.

[ghost9pm]

Actually that's a damn good idea for a conversion I might have to steal that. I've got 5 extra bikes sitting around that I don't use I could make 2 quads pretty easy.

 

Oh have you noticed that bikes are 32 points a piece before weapons, so if you've got a squad of 5 we'll just round that to 150 points. That's 150 points for 5 Toughness 5 wounds. If you take 3 Attack bikes at 50 points each you get 6 Toughness 5 wounds for 150 points. AND you get heavy bolters! lmao

 

It makes no sense! lol

[Koremu]

Actually that's a damn good idea for a conversion I might have to steal that. I've got 5 extra bikes sitting around that I don't use I could make 2 quads pretty easy.

 

Oh have you noticed that bikes are 32 points a piece before weapons, so if you've got a squad of 5 we'll just round that to 150 points. That's 150 points for 5 Toughness 5 wounds. If you take 3 Attack bikes at 50 points each you get 6 Toughness 5 wounds for 150 points. AND you get heavy bolters! lmao

 

It makes no sense! lol

 

You can ID an Attack Bike with a STR 8+ weapon. Which means that pure Attack Bike squads tend to draw Heavy Weapons fire very quickly, and lacks spare wounds to soak that kind of fire.

[Captain Idaho]

I must play devils advocate here! I use 4 Lascannons in my list, 2 on my Landraider, 1 on my Dreadnought and 1 in a Tactical squad, and it really works for me. I have 2 meltaguns for up close blatting and can assault vehicles when neccessary, but the longer ranged weapons of the Lascannons enabled me to hurt opponents at range without the threat of melta weapons getting me.

 

A player who relies on melta weapons to destroy tanks is at a severe disadvantage. You need to be within 12" generally to be effective, which means your units have to get close to your opponent which means they are at high risk themselves. I find that I can predict the use of Drop podding melta units, Attack bikers and Landspeeders, where they are moving to, what they are targetting etc.

 

One of tenets of strong list building is reach, and lascannons and missile launchers give you this. Taking pot shots at enemy vehicles will kill weaken them and occasionally destroy them. A stunned or imobilised result is just as good against transports, as it takes away a 2nd tenet of strong list building and game play away from a player - mobility. A shaken/stunned/weapon destroyed result is great against battle tanks.

 

And when they get close you can use your melta weapons to finish them off.

 

I recently played Gaz1858 and he had 2 Devastator squads with 4 missile launchers in each and a Predator with Autocannon and 2 lascannons (a surprisingly cheap and useful tank) and he basically blatted me from a distance every turn, with me ending up dreading his shooting phase each turn. You have to sacrifice shooting to move close enough to fire back, which is a free turns fire for him. He had meltaguns for close range blatting too, but didn't rely on them alone.

[ghost9pm]

All good points Captain.

 

I admit I have 2 small 5 man shooty squads with Las/Plasma that squat on objectives. But you're almost obligated to give them lascannons otherwise they can't contribute to the battle at all. At least it might act as a deterrent against a turn 5 objective rush.

 

My problem with the Land Raider with 2 Lascannons is that if its moving 6" you can only fire 1 weapon. You should have something in it so you should actually be moving 12" per turn to get to grips with the enemy. So you're not actually using the lascannons for 3 turns of the game anyway. On top of that they have a limited field of fire because they can't shoot through their own hull obviously. The dread with a lascannon is probably your best bet because it can move and fire its weapons. But why take a dread with a lascannon when they destroy armor better in close combat? They'll strike against the rear armor and have 3 or 4 S10 Attacks with a bonus dice to pen if I'm not mistaken. I would rather do that than 1 S9 lascannon shot, even if it is twin linked.

 

My point is that obviously it would be great if you could immobilize or wreck all the enemies vehicles before they got to you, but that is extremely unlikely in 5th edition with so much floating cover. 5th edition is also trending towards highly mechanized armies (because GW wants to sell more tanks) so chances are you both will be moving toward each other 12" at a time. Long range weapons will always have a place in 40k but my point is that the points can be better spent elsewhere.

 

For me, 165 pts for the dreadnought is a poor choice when I could have a vindicator for 125 and 40 points to spare!

[ghost9pm]

Actually that's a damn good idea for a conversion I might have to steal that. I've got 5 extra bikes sitting around that I don't use I could make 2 quads pretty easy.

 

Oh have you noticed that bikes are 32 points a piece before weapons, so if you've got a squad of 5 we'll just round that to 150 points. That's 150 points for 5 Toughness 5 wounds. If you take 3 Attack bikes at 50 points each you get 6 Toughness 5 wounds for 150 points. AND you get heavy bolters! lmao

 

It makes no sense! lol

 

You can ID an Attack Bike with a STR 8+ weapon. Which means that pure Attack Bike squads tend to draw Heavy Weapons fire very quickly, and lacks spare wounds to soak that kind of fire.

 

I've had the complete opposite experience with them. I don't use them anymore because there's better things to spend points on in a BT army, but I would just bring 2 of them, 1 heavy bolter and 1 melta, and the enemy would just ignore them.

 

My opponents didn't really see them as a threat, just more of a nuisance. I guess it all depends on who and where you play.

[Jackelope King]

Las Cannons really are only good for knocking out transports. On a pen, they only destroy the target 33% of the time, so they rely on having such a high strength to get penetrating hits regularly. Against the front armor of a Rhino, a single las cannon shot has a meager 15% chance of destroying the transport. On the other hand, a single melta shot will destroy that target almost 31% of the time. The 2d6 armor penetration is nice, but it's the AP1 that really shines, boosting the odds of killing your target by almost 16%, and even allowing you a kill on a glancing hit. Even without being at half range, a multimelta mounted on an attack bike has roughly the same odds of a killing shot on any given target as a las cannon with only a 12" decrease in range.

 

In 5e, having reach is indeed still a good thing, but relying on it is very, very risky. Everything moves and closes faster, and the more distant your target, the more likely it is to be able to claim cover. Las cannons are still nice against MCs (though they're pricey for the job) and there still is some benefit to stunning your opponents' vehicles out of formation (which missile launchers and las cannons can still do). But to kill the transports regularly, las cannons are too pricey for your average marine list to spam. Meltas are far cheaper and more effective.

[Captain Idaho]

In 5e, having reach is indeed still a good thing, but relying on it is very, very risky. Everything moves and closes faster, and the more distant your target, the more likely it is to be able to claim cover. Las cannons are still nice against MCs (though they're pricey for the job) and there still is some benefit to stunning your opponents' vehicles out of formation (which missile launchers and las cannons can still do). But to kill the transports regularly, las cannons are too pricey for your average marine list to spam. Meltas are far cheaper and more effective.

 

Oh of course relying on long range anti-tank is a bad thing, but completely eschewing it in favour of the opposite is pretty similar. A combination of close ranged anti-tank and Lascannons and missile launchers is the way forward.

 

Meltas are so cheap because they are only really effective at close range and the platforms are very fragile. Lascannons are more expensive because the platforms they are on are more dependable and durable. Apart from Razorbacks, can't figure out why the Lascannons on those are so expensive but that is another subject.

 

My problem with the Land Raider with 2 Lascannons is that if its moving 6" you can only fire 1 weapon. You should have something in it so you should actually be moving 12" per turn to get to grips with the enemy.

 

I note you're avatar is a Black Templar so for you a Landraider probably isn't quite as good a platform as it is for Space Marines. Both lascannons are able to fire, at different units if preferable, moving at 6". A single weapon can be fired if I move 12", even if I use smoke launchers and the thing is shaken! And the platform is AV14 and has a hard squad inside ready to counter charge (typically) to boot.

 

So that is dead useful.

[Aidoneus]

Meltas are king, but you need to get close enough to use 'em. This means two things. First, you need considerable investment in mobility. If you're doing this already, fine, but if not it's that much extra expenditure. Second, you need to get within assault range to use 'em. Again, if you're an assault-based army, all the better. But if you're not, this can mean getting much close than you would like to the enemy's lines.

 

Personally, I love meltaguns in squads, and even more so I adore multi-meltas on vehicles (attack bikes and land speeders especially, for the fast movement). However, most of the time I also want some lascannons or missle launchers, or honestly even autocannons, for popping transports. You can seriously disrupt a player's gameplan if you bust his rhinos early, leaving him stranded in the middle of the field, and long-range AT dakka is perfect for that.

 

Oh, and as an aside... Check out this conversion. Scroll down maybe a third of the way, just past the vehicles and before the bikers. He uses it as either an attack bike or a land speeder, and it's one of my all-time favorite conversions.

 

... all the better for my 'nids to munch on. B)

[ghost9pm]

"Oh of course relying on long range anti-tank is a bad thing, but completely eschewing it in favour of the opposite is pretty similar. A combination of close ranged anti-tank and Lascannons and missile launchers is the way forward."

 

This is where I disagree. If you rely entirely on long range firepower than yes, your list is doomed to mediocrity. Lascannons are 25+ points and cannot reliably stop a smart mech player that screens his weak vehicles with tougher ones, uses cover wisely, and pops smoke at an appropriate time. Missile Launchers are even worse at this task since they can only glance AV 14 vehicles. They might be free in tactical squads but that doesn't make them useful. That's alot of 6's to roll to stop a tank.

 

I do believe however, that mech and fast armies can nearly abandon all long range weapons in their list (except for your objective squatters of course. Like I said before, they need to do something). Tyranids are a good example. Rending genestealers are much more reliable for destroying light transports than an expensive venom cannon is.

 

When you talk about popping enemy transports when they're midway across the field you have a defensive mindset. You want to pop the transport so that they have to slog it up the field 6 inches at a time while your army shoots at them, correct? You're assuming that you're on the receiving end of the mech assault while your army defends objectives. Every army needs to go to the offense eventually. Even Tau need to rush the objectives at some point. They can't sit back and shoot the entire game. I've had games against IG and Tau where they get so caught up in shooting me that they completely forget that the game often ends on turn 5.

 

If you're the one making the mech assault, its a completely different story. Why would I need expensive long range weapons when I can buy cheaper melta weapons that are better suited to my style of play?

 

Oh and yeah you're right about the Land Raider though. The new machine spirit rules allow a BS 2 shot no matter how far it moved if I'm not mistaken? Yeah we Templar players got left out of that one. We prefer the Crusader because the Bolters count as defensive weapons and it can carry bigger squads. And if it's job is to get Termies to the front the melta and assault cannon are more suited to our needs.

 

Great comments guys!

[Aidoneus]

Oh and yeah you're right about the Land Raider though. The new machine spirit rules allow a BS 2 shot no matter how far it moved if I'm not mistaken?

It can fire one additional weapon at the same BS as the vehicle, no matter how far it moved, and at a different target if you wish.

 

You need to advance at some point, but if your staring down a mounted World Eater army, you're not going to want to get within melta range for a good, long while. Having weapons that can bust transports at long range becomes invaluable. It's all about flexibility, and being able to successfully engage any opponent.

[ghost9pm]

Like I said before, it's all good if you can kill things from afar.

 

That's great and all but it's by no means a necessity. If it was, we would all be playing Tau.

 

Chances are if he's a good player he's going to know that the enemy is going to try and pop his transports asap. He'll know not to leave them out in the open. That's just common sense. When he does leave cover he's going to pop smoke or shield his rhinos behind a tough vehicle like a land raider.

[Captain Idaho]

Indeed, but it is all but impossible on every table to protect your vehicles from long range fire whilst being in a reasonable position. You said yourself that you need to launch an assault sooner or later, and if you do you need to leave the safety of your cover etc.

 

I have used this combined weapons build and it works, though that is largely because of my armies build and playstyle. I don't rush into combat as soon as possible, where as a BT or BA player might be aiming to do that, therefore for me this will work better while for those armies it is a waste of points to go for longer ranged weapons.

 

My play style makes this work for me, I am a steady advance kinda guys, though I do have the option to move forward swiftly if I have too...

 

So I must say I agree with you from one angle, but from another I disagree :)

 

You are right in that I am wrong to say my way is the way forward. What I should have said is it is the way forward for those who favour a balanced, cautious approach. Which we know is not for everyone.

[Thantoes]

I think it all depends on your play style. If you are aggressive and in your face then melta weapons and vindicators are just what the doctor ordered. If you are a defensive player or even someone who likes to see what the opponents plan is for a turn or two then longer ranged lascannons are way to go.

 

The list I ran over the last weekend is heavy on the melta (2 x melta guns, 2 x combi-melta's) and one vindicator and it did fairly well when it came to taking out vehicles. But it is a fairly aggressive list with fast attack moving up quickly and an ironclad coming down next to dangerous tanks.

 

That being said, I have also had huge success running a list with 2 dev squads (2xlas, 2xplas) and (2xplas, 2xML) They suck in fire and they do nasty nasty things to opponent vehicles.

[ghost9pm]

Agreed.

 

It all depends on the mission and your opponent as well. If I'm playing a fast opponent I like to let him come to me and take a few shots before I counterattack towards him with my Land Raider, Vindicator, and Rhinos. If I'm up against Tau or IG you don't really have a choice in the matter, you have to rush them right away or else you'll get blown into the next millenium.

 

If you wouldn't mind doing me a favor and checking out my list. Its in the Black Templars Army List Section. It should be near the top under the title 1500 Point Store Tournament Army. You seem to know what you're talking about so any constructive criticism would be appreciated.

[waaanial00]

To be honest I think there is too much focus on actually destroying tanks in 5th ed, everyone seems to be thinking that the only answer to a tank is to completely obilterate it without really thinking things through to their conclusion. I tend to find that results such as imobilised and Shaken (no shoot or move one in case I get the name wrong again!) are far superior depending on what the vehicle is and what it is designed to do.

 

A few examples of what I mean and then I will contribute a little more helpfully :)

 

1 - A standard Ork Trukk. Now it is AV10 so even your weaker weapons are going to do harm to it, even glaring at it harshly seems to make it fall apart. However it has a special rule that if it is wrecked or destroyed it is likely to move forward further. Therefore the sweet result is actually to imobilise it, closely followed by Shaken.

 

The Ork player will have spend 35 points and seriously reduced the mob size for no benefit at all because he still has to foot slog it.

 

2 - A Squadron of Lemon Russ whatevers. Now as we are all finding out again in a Squadron glancing can actually mean killing, this makes glancing options viable not only because you can still rip weapons off but you can at a pinch imobilise and therefore destroy tanks.

 

The point I am trying to make in my normal nonsense way is that Pentrating and killing the tank is not always neccessary. Stopping an annoying Predator Annihilator shooting for one turn by shooting a Missile Launcher at it is a very good investment and so is Shaking a Landraider under the new POTMS rules, especially if they take a Cruisader or Redeemer.

 

As to the use of lascannons in anti tank, its still a S9 weapon. As much as we all rave about Multi Meltas they are only S8 which means outside of 12" you cannot penetrate a Landraider. Its a cold hard fact that noone can escape, especially as tanks can move 12". Now of course there are things you can do to increase the speed of your Multimeltas but at the end of the day if you need to pen an AV14 tank over 12" then your only tools in the box are lascannon and demoliser cannon, if you dont take either one then you have 0 chance at it.

 

Now my issue with a demolisher cannon is that I would never see it in a anti tank role because it is just much better at killing infantry, the number of times I have shot it and scattered to a S5 leads me to not trust in the dice gods. However a Lascannon can only kill 1 model if shot at infantry so it is much less of a loss if aimed at a tank.

 

I am seriously considering reviving my tri lascannon predator just for Rhino sniping, the AV14 can be dealt with at closer range because rarely do I encounter someone who is happy to stand off with it as they usually hold some fairly in your face contents. When I do encounter a stand off tank I either scurry out of LOS or just take the hit and concentrate on killing other things whilst moving up the board.

 

Wan

[Defiance]

lascannons are still good, just not the be all end all of tankbusting like they used to be. they have there place in a sternguard squad or on a predator as side sponsons or on dreds. like waaanial said you dont totally have to kill the tank just make sure that it gets shaken or stunned as not to move or shoot.

 

 

 

(Hey Ghost do you play at imperial outpost perchance, your sig at the bottom just reminds me of a game

I saw recently with the same thing being said!!!)

[ghost9pm]

No I go to ASU so I play in the Tempe area. Game Depot in Tempe and Gamers Inn in Mesa.

 

Imperial Outpost is the one on Thunderbird?

[Defiance]

AH, have not been out there yet i hear Gamers inn is nice have to try it. Yes it is on thunderbird. the guys playing the game i was watching last time i was there just kept saying that same phrase over the period of the game and just wondered if you

happened to be one of them.

[Gaz1858]

In terms of long range V short range weapons i believe a bit of both is best if acheiveable.

 

In the list Idaho mentioned earler theres those three long range units. But along with them theres an Iron-pod, dreadnought with ass cannon, two tacts one in a rhino, and some th/ss termys.

 

Long range taken by the 2 5 man dev squads with ML and the Pred with Autocannon + lascannons

 

Mid range woulld be the tacts, and dread

 

Short range the th/ss and iron pod.

 

A bit of versatility means that although idaho maybe feared my long range shooting ( god knows why mate my dice rolls were unreal!!!) i still had the ability at medium and short range to damage tanks. I try to build my list around that kind of idea and although its not the best or only or anything like that it does tick all the boxes.

[ghost9pm]

Now my issue with a demolisher cannon is that I would never see it in a anti tank role because it is just much better at killing infantry, the number of times I have shot it and scattered to a S5 leads me to not trust in the dice gods. However a Lascannon can only kill 1 model if shot at infantry so it is much less of a loss if aimed at a tank.

 

Yeah I know the Vindicator won't work for everyone but I think it's versatility justifies the measly 125 points to get it for Mechanized players.

 

I use it in combination with my Land Raider to shield my Rhinos as well, so that helps me get into close combat more often. I would rather they shot at the Vindicator than my Rhinos. Plus it can take out large amounts of infantry, and the scatter dice hits 33% of the time. If it scatters less than 4" it hits because you subtract your BS. If it hits its going to penetrate probably 80% of the time because you get the bonus dice. A Lascannon has about the same reliability. It hits 66% of the time when fired by a marine but it won't penetrate as reliably since its S9 and only 1D6 for pen. That means I would have to purchase multiple Lascannons in order to get the same reliability. At 25+ points a pop that's too much. Plus I would have to find something else to shield my Rhinos.

 

I do have 4 Lascannons in my 1500 point list (2 on Land Raider and a couple in 2 small sniping 5 man tactical squads) but I think a Tri-Las would be overkill because the Demolisher can do its job and more. The Tri-Las is more expensive and I think that the Vindicator's versatility is better suited to support my mech assault than a Tri-Las that has to stay put in the rear. Plus my own tanks will block its line of sight.

 

NOTE TO DEFIANCE: Send me a message and we can get a game going some time. Its kind of a drive for me but I like playing at different stores.

[waaanial00]

Yeah I know the Vindicator won't work for everyone but I think it's versatility justifies the measly 125 points to get it for Mechanized players.

 

Its ability to kill even the heaviest of troops is all the justification I ever need, using it as a fall back tank hunter is on the cards but that not why I put it in. It may not work for everyone as a tank killer but everyone can use a S10 Ordenance template ;)

 

Wan