Long Range Anti-Tank really necessary?

[earthen]

i think the notion that a tank destroyed by a melta bomb is still destroyed - true - but its contents are now sitting on your front doorstep - better hope its not an assault unit.

 

vindicators are great though, especially spammed.

 

 

As it was said before, MM bikes are great. Lascannons have unique advantages, especially that nice range cusion with MCs. On that note, though, id like to add 12" move + relentless + 24" range is a very effective way to deal with MCs.

[Tinus Maximus]

Hm. A good point there. Roll a vehicle EXPLODES roll and meltabombs suddenly aren't that great anymore, if the unit that uses the meltabombs is next to the explosion.

 

MeltaGUN on the other hand, well, that always gives you nice fireworks, particularly multimelta's. From a relatively safe distance.

[minigun762]

and a Predator with Autocannon and 2 lascannons (a surprisingly cheap and useful tank) and he basically blatted me from a distance every turn, with me ending up dreading his shooting phase each turn.

 

Vindicator.

I know, this is probably what you're thinking:

"w t f ? That's his solution? That's the Rhino with the big gun right? I read all that and his solution is a Vindicator? Forget this, I'm going to look at porn."

 

I think you're both correct.

 

Long range heavy weapons are a 100% valid choice as range can often be a substitute for mobility.

I don't have to move half way across the board to engage your squad if I can pummel them at range. Long range weapons are also more effective against faster armies then yours, where you might not be able to get close enough with short range weapons (Eldar/Dark Eldar for example)

Conversely, short range powerful weapons are also 100% valid, assuming you're smart enough to match them to a mobile platform with sufficient numbers/durability to close the distance. Short range weapons are more powerful against armies that will already be moving towards you, as it minimizes the amount of time that you're out of effective firing range (Footslogging Orks, Black Templar).

 

I think the deciding factor here (besides playstyle which, is true, but also seems like a cop-out answer) is picking the most effective choice from either camp.

*personal opinion incoming*

I don't believe that the 3 LasCannon Predator is a smart buy. Its too expensive, especially for SM/CSM and not too inflexible for an all-comers list. Instead I point towards Captain Idaho's comment about the "Combi-Predator" with AutoCannon and LasCannons. Its less then 80% of the price of the 3 LasCannon version and has a more flexible weapon loadout (2 S7 and 2 S9 shots > 3 S9 shots against most infantry/light armor) all while maintaining the same range and overall unit role of long range heavy weapon platform.

By the same logic, the Vindicator is a great buy for the short range camp. Its fairly cheap and highly flexible. The ability to target anything from Guardsmen to a Land Raider with a moderate chance of success is very telling.

Not surprisingly, these units are approximately the same price, meaning that they represent a fairly equal investment if you choose to have a "balanced" army comprised of long and short range heavy weapons.

[Ryjak]

Having run a pair of Vindicators for years, there's a lot going for them, and a lot NOT going for them. Ultimately, though, they're best for blasting infantry, not vehicles, except for big vehicles that are hard to miss, like Land Raiders, Monoliths, and Devilfish. I've always delighted when my opponent brings a Monolith.

 

If you want to kill heavy vehicles, you're generally better off using melta weapons, as they receive +1 on the damage table, and if you can get that 2d6+8, you're probably going to penetrate, too.

 

If you want to kill light vehicles, go with your long range, high strength weapons, like Missile Launchers and Lascannons. Not only will these weapons penetrate most of the time, but often you don't want to get close or can't get close to these light, fast vehicles.

[Captain Idaho]

I think we have come to a majority consensus here, as I think the above 2 posters have hit the nail on the head.

 

I'm going to be stealing the combi-Predator idea from Gaz1858 in my future games

[Tinus Maximus]

This combi predator is the perfect thing to use against all those 'experienced' players that said to me: "it's best to have the same kind of weapon all over one unit". It just goes to show how creativity can beat overly strong opinion with a good, cheap alternative!

[Cameron Magnus]

I dont know the last time I used a lascannon in a devastator squad or a tactical squad. I tend to use the trusty ML and the Multi Melta on land speeders and land raiders.

 

I have no difficulty getting close and while my enemy tends to do signifigant damage with his tanks I tend to end their measly existance before games end as well as still having my armor close enough to tear him a new one. ;)

 

As far as the Predator goes I have used that occasionaly and with moderate success. I'm waiting on a list that I can build with a well known tank commander with BS 5.

 

In short for me its Meltas. I converted some combi-meltas for my sternguard and am looking for meltas for my tac squads in case I want to drop the flamer. (I love the smell of promethium in the morning) B) Some multi Melta tacticals I think would prove quite the deterant to enemy armor sneaking up to drop off the xenos scum on my objectives.

 

It all depends on your style of play and the game boards in your army. What you use is what is most effective for you and if you dont change your play style to fit the diferent weapons and their various platforms then you may as well stick to your old ways.

[DerekLee688]

As a nub, I've been reading this article intently. Here's what I gathered.

 

A tri-cannon Pred may be expensive but having it cover a strictly assault orented army makes sense for two reasons. One, it has AV14 armor to make the other guy have the same problem as what we're discussing now. Two, it has the range/shot number to kill what you woudn't divote your melta bomb carring Assault marines. You gotta have something to get at that IG arty.

 

Specilization is one thing that concerns me. Having a Tac squad of 10 using a MM to pop a Tank instead of unleashing 17+ bolter shots at a infantry unit irks me. Not to say I woundn't have anything other than the free MM in a advancing Tac squad but I need something else to kill that tank before my Tac's finish infantry, then turn on the tank.

 

For this purpose you can go the cheap luck route, I.E. the single suicide LandSpeeder,or Attack bike. I don't like hit or die senario's. You can go expensive spam: triple MM attack bikes, Double devistator squads(to wound not kill). Niether of those are financialy feasable for me. Land Raiders arn't the answer, because their primary function is transport not hunter. I wish they would make something to put on them to pop AV 14 Vehicles besides a MM.(Will there ever be a GW demolisher LR?!?!?!)

 

I've adopted the Mech. or die army for the time being. For low point games, I don't have to worry about armor. Mid Point games(1000pt.) I'm gonna go for combi pred + vindicator. Larger games I'm going to flank either the pred. or Land Raider with two Vindicators.

 

One vindicator is a hit or die with better survivalbility, but two doubles the number of shots and allows you to split between anti armor and anti infantry duties. Moving brings targets into range AND provides cover for Rino's meaning no action is wasted with a smart player.

 

My only question is, "What is the BS of a Codex:SM Land Raider Machine Spirit?"

[Cornishman]

Long range anti-tank is not needed. Sure anti-tank is needed in your army somewhere, but it doesn't have to be long range. Short range anti tank is a perfectly viable option so long as it is suitably mounted and deployed: as noted there are many options for this. Shooty options usually revolve around vehicle or bike mounted weapons (usually multi-melta), drop pod MM-Dreds, MM-Landspeeders, MM-Attack Bikes, and bikers with melta guns all have a high degree of mobility and should be able to close into prime metla range easily. Then there are DCCW and melta bombs in assualt. For lighter armour the autocannon and assualt cannon are your friend. This is not forgetting the Vindicator, which is an awesome peice of kit so long as you don't let it get flanked (that side armour of 11 is soo vulnerable) as that demolisher cannon is not only perfect for anti-tank (Str 10, Ordanance ;) ) , but being a big pie plate its also handy for cutting through any infantry sheltering around the tank :) or any infantry in general.

The downside of short range anti-tank is that getting it into position requires a high degree of speed and mobility, and if you don't finish off you target not only will they be annoyed but extremely close, so putting your A-T at risk from both the target and any units supporting it, so allowing the opposition to out manoeuvre you.

[Joshta]

Your kinda assuming that the highly mobile armies are going to give up the cat and mouse game. If your army is not packing Long range anti tank how are you expecting to deal with fast eldar armies. If you can't pop their transports your not going to assault, or they are going to pull your units so far out of your line that they will eat you picking apart unit by unit. If you can't get close, you can't use meltas.

 

I like the commitment to the cause, and if both sides are charging straight in AWESOME. But if the second army cat and mouses you, then swoops in at the last second, then your on the bad side of an unfairly matched game. Remember, you only need to claim one more objective over your enemy and you only need to take that one (along with contesting the others) for the last turn.

 

Side not- I love both the LR Crusader and the LR las. But don't hate to fast on the dread TH TLLC and ML, a str 10 and str 9 arn't something to be ignored.

 

The crusader is a beautiful anti tank. Use the MultiMelta as the main weapon, and use the Assault cannon as the Machine Spirit. That way you get double chances at rending. TL +RENDING + BS2= Awesome.

 

The LRlas moves and pivots towards your target firing both twin linked sponsons 1 at TL BS4 and one as TL bs2.

 

Lastly, popping LR's and transports before the assault means, we get to assault their heavy hitters, FURIOUS CHARGE FTW.

 

 

I use a mixture, as i see it as the best of both worlds.

[DarkGuard]

Long-range anti-tank can be effective against static armies as well. Having a Rhino Rush stalled because your MM attack bikes couldn't reach anti-tank units in time, which in turn shot down your Rhinos, is not nice. Today I played against a Dark Angel player who uses a tri-las Pred. Having got the first turn, I was able to blow off two of its lascannons with my Dreadnought and Razorback (both with TL-lascannons) This undoubtably saved my Rhino with Marines that were attempting to close. So in this case long-range anit-tank helped.

 

Is long-range anti-tank always necessary? I wouldn't say so, but IMO it can helpful in a lot of situations, even if it only prevents a vehicle from doing much while your MM attack bikes or your Vindicator closes.

[Cadarn]

Once more I sing the praises of balance. :tu:

 

As with all things in a list, looking at ranged weaponry by itself is a mistake. All army components must be considered in terms of what else you have to support it.

 

Napoleon's generals relied massively on his long ranged artillery and were able to wipe the floor with most European armies. However, he then came up against British Infantry and a canny general who knew how to counter him.

 

As mentioned, Las-canons are unreliable in destroying heavy armour. Sure, they may get some glancing hits, but they will be unlikely to destroy anything heavier than transports. Melta weapons are the mutts nuts when it comes to wrecking heavy armour, and in some cases are overkill against lighter armour, especially melta bombs as you're going to be hitting rear armour which, in the overwhelming majority of cases, is only AV10, which means a bunch of Krak grenades can be as good.

 

So, looking at the above, it all depends on how they are used. I run a Land Raider with LC Sponsons and two MM/HF Speeders. The lascanons are great at hitting enemy transports as soon as possible with the intention of preventing them from getting where they are meant to. Yes, Meltas can do this too, but to do it you either have to wait until they get close enough (in which case the transport has already done its job) or get to your opponent quickly, leaving your MM model deep in enemy territory where it is sure to be wiped out.

 

Yes, Lascanons may only glance heavy armour, but that means the vehicle isn't shooting or moving, giving your meltas time to move in and finish them off.

 

Over reliance on one or the other is less effective than evenly balancing between the two. After all, no-one said that you need to take one or the other. Take both and its a game full of armour popping goodness.

 

One other point in favour of long ranged weapons: They can be infuriating for your opponent. He will no doubt target his own long ranged firepower against them, meaning your assault element can move closer and take less fire. If you are lucky enough to wipe out his ranged firepower first, then you can either sit back and fire with impunity, or watch as he diverts parts of his assault element into killing them. In the case of the latter, this means that he is reacting to you. You are placing the target there that he needs to kill.

 

This can be even more effective if you resist the temptation to put them on your home objective (especially in the case of Devastators). If you put the ranged weapons on the objective, your opponent can kill two birds with one stone; kill your ranged weapons and contest/claim the objective. If he has half a brain, he will be after the objective anyway, so killing the ranged weapons is a bonus.

 

If you place your ranged weapons away from your home objective, he will need to divert part of his force to wipe them out, meaning less troops assaulting your objective.

 

If you can do this effectively, you can dictate your opponent's strategy. Yes, you will still be partly reliant on the luck of the dice gods, but what else is new?

 

One final point in favour of ranged weaponry: Eldar and Necrons. Eldar are infuriatingly nippy and a good Eldar opponent can be difficult to get within the 12 inch range required to make the most of your meltas. Furthermore, Wave Serpents and Necron Monoliths don't give a damn about your 2D6 armour penetration bonus. They ignore it (most of the time) and so you need to get very close for little to no benefit. Yes, you'll get a +1 on the damage chart, but lascanons will give you a far greater chance of punching through that armour in the first place.

 

So, a place for all things and all things in their place. If you rely too much on one thing, your opponent has a clear idea of what to destroy in order to scupper your plans. Keep him guessing and make him dance to your tune.

[minigun762]

Once more I sing the praises of balance. <_<

 

As with all things in a list, looking at ranged weaponry by itself is a mistake. All army components must be considered in terms of what else you have to support it.

 

Napoleon's generals relied massively on his long ranged artillery and were able to wipe the floor with most European armies. However, he then came up against British Infantry and a canny general who knew how to counter him.

 

As mentioned, Las-canons are unreliable in destroying heavy armour. Sure, they may get some glancing hits, but they will be unlikely to destroy anything heavier than transports. Melta weapons are the mutts nuts when it comes to wrecking heavy armour, and in some cases are overkill against lighter armour, especially melta bombs as you're going to be hitting rear armour which, in the overwhelming majority of cases, is only AV10, which means a bunch of Krak grenades can be as good.

 

So, looking at the above, it all depends on how they are used. I run a Land Raider with LC Sponsons and two MM/HF Speeders. The lascanons are great at hitting enemy transports as soon as possible with the intention of preventing them from getting where they are meant to. Yes, Meltas can do this too, but to do it you either have to wait until they get close enough (in which case the transport has already done its job) or get to your opponent quickly, leaving your MM model deep in enemy territory where it is sure to be wiped out.

 

Yes, Lascanons may only glance heavy armour, but that means the vehicle isn't shooting or moving, giving your meltas time to move in and finish them off.

 

Over reliance on one or the other is less effective than evenly balancing between the two. After all, no-one said that you need to take one or the other. Take both and its a game full of armour popping goodness.

 

One other point in favour of long ranged weapons: They can be infuriating for your opponent. He will no doubt target his own long ranged firepower against them, meaning your assault element can move closer and take less fire. If you are lucky enough to wipe out his ranged firepower first, then you can either sit back and fire with impunity, or watch as he diverts parts of his assault element into killing them. In the case of the latter, this means that he is reacting to you. You are placing the target there that he needs to kill.

 

This can be even more effective if you resist the temptation to put them on your home objective (especially in the case of Devastators). If you put the ranged weapons on the objective, your opponent can kill two birds with one stone; kill your ranged weapons and contest/claim the objective. If he has half a brain, he will be after the objective anyway, so killing the ranged weapons is a bonus.

 

If you place your ranged weapons away from your home objective, he will need to divert part of his force to wipe them out, meaning less troops assaulting your objective.

 

If you can do this effectively, you can dictate your opponent's strategy. Yes, you will still be partly reliant on the luck of the dice gods, but what else is new?

 

One final point in favour of ranged weaponry: Eldar and Necrons. Eldar are infuriatingly nippy and a good Eldar opponent can be difficult to get within the 12 inch range required to make the most of your meltas. Furthermore, Wave Serpents and Necron Monoliths don't give a damn about your 2D6 armour penetration bonus. They ignore it (most of the time) and so you need to get very close for little to no benefit. Yes, you'll get a +1 on the damage chart, but lascanons will give you a far greater chance of punching through that armour in the first place.

 

So, a place for all things and all things in their place. If you rely too much on one thing, your opponent has a clear idea of what to destroy in order to scupper your plans. Keep him guessing and make him dance to your tune.

 

Well said. ^_^

 

The main thing I would comment on is that you can achieve much of the same effect for alot cheaper by using Missile Launchers/AutoCannons instead of LasCannons.

Against the type of targets that you should be targeting with long range weapons (Walkers and Transports), S7 or S8 works nearly as well as S9 and comes much cheaper.

[Ryjak]

True, but I prefer penetrating a transport on a 3+ instead of a 4+, which is why my Tactical Squads have now traded in their "free" Missile Launchers for Lascannons. They took out two Trucks and a Battlewagon for me today... granted, that Battlewagon was a ridiculously lucky result, but I'll take it.

[Koremu]

Hm. A good point there. Roll a vehicle EXPLODES roll and meltabombs suddenly aren't that great anymore, if the unit that uses the meltabombs is next to the explosion.

 

MeltaGUN on the other hand, well, that always gives you nice fireworks, particularly multimelta's. From a relatively safe distance.

It's a STR 3 hit that allows an armour save. Allow me to go 'meh'.

[Cadarn]

Allowed, but I have seen several cases where a player has thought "meh" and said "oh bugger."

 

Statistically, it's unlikely to do much damage, but it is still a risk which needs to be taken into consideration, especially in the case of assault squads or scout squads where numbers really do matter for survivability.

 

As for the point about using ML as opposed to LC, it comes down to points. On top of my Raider and Speeder combo, I like to run a ML armed Dev squad. Between the three I have a mass of flexibility.

[DarkGuard]

Hm. A good point there. Roll a vehicle EXPLODES roll and meltabombs suddenly aren't that great anymore, if the unit that uses the meltabombs is next to the explosion.

 

MeltaGUN on the other hand, well, that always gives you nice fireworks, particularly multimelta's. From a relatively safe distance.

It's a STR 3 hit that allows an armour save. Allow me to go 'meh'.

 

It's probably what makes bike squads and attack bike squads so effective at taking down tanks with meltaguns. Fast enough to get within half range and they will shrug off that strength 3 hit

[Captain Idaho]

Allowed, but I have seen several cases where a player has thought "meh" and said "oh bugger."

 

Indeed and seconded! I lost a Librarian in my own turn when he rolled a perils of the Warp and lost a wound, shortly before a nearby Vindiactor blew up to Krak grenades and he was wounded and failed his save! The more models that suffer wounds the more saves you will fail, so it's always a risk!

[DevianID]

For a case in point, I had an immobilized land speeder assaulted by a 10 man assault squad in my opponents deployment zone. He exploded the speeder, and I wounded 4 of the 10 assault marines--fairly typical. He then failed 3 saves... then promptly failed his morale check, and RAN OFF HIS BOARD EDGE!

 

So, a bit unlucky for him yes, but it does illustrate the value of killing vehicles out of close combat.

[greatcrusade08]

Once more I sing the praises of balance. :P

 

Id go along with this,

my own choice is to use close range krak grenades, meltabombs and melta weapons for anti-tank, mech folds pretty well to krak grenades, of course it means the embarked unit is a threat but if you use a combat squad or small unit of scouts, then you create a speedbump for him, which allows you to shoot the bejeezus out of him next turn.

 

Gc08

[Cadarn]

Allowed, but I have seen several cases where a player has thought "meh" and said "oh bugger."

 

Indeed and seconded! I lost a Librarian in my own turn when he rolled a perils of the Warp and lost a wound, shortly before a nearby Vindiactor blew up to Krak grenades and he was wounded and failed his save! The more models that suffer wounds the more saves you will fail, so it's always a risk!

 

Heh, I actually had the game from the GWHQ meet and your Librarian in mind while I was writing that. :lol:

[Grey Mage]

Allowed, but I have seen several cases where a player has thought "meh" and said "oh bugger."

 

Statistically, it's unlikely to do much damage, but it is still a risk which needs to be taken into consideration, especially in the case of assault squads or scout squads where numbers really do matter for survivability.

 

As for the point about using ML as opposed to LC, it comes down to points. On top of my Raider and Speeder combo, I like to run a ML armed Dev squad. Between the three I have a mass of flexibility.

I had a game *4 player* where an eldar waveserpent dropped off a squad of howling banshees who joined an assault between gaurd conscripts and tau fire warriors, and then were joined by an understrength GH squad. At some point the WGPL of the GHs slapped a meltabomb on the tank... and every single model there died, except said pack leader. Thats 6 GHs, 8 Banshees, 5 Firewarriors, and 4 Gaurdsmen from a Str 3 6" explosion of pain.

 

For LR AT firepower you cant beat lascannons really. To that point I have a Predator with TLLC and HB sponsons- keeps it a bit cheaper and more flexable. I also have a squad of long fangs with lascannons and missile launchers *again cheap and flexable* and I find both work well when backed up with short range AT from squads and bikes.

[Gornall]

For LR AT firepower you cant beat lascannons really. To that point I have a Predator with TLLC and HB sponsons- keeps it a bit cheaper and more flexable.

 

That seems a little too much of a mixed bag for me, as it's only 1 shot that can hurt AV12+ and the LC doesn't add that much to anti-infantry fire verus the cheaper Autocannon. I'm a big proponent of the Combi-Pred, though.

 

In general, I don't like using MGs against anything but light transports, simply because a Tactical Squad can still handle whatever pops out. Against LRs or something carrying nasty guys, then it's time to bust out the suicide MMs or Vindicators. However, if you play things right and pop the LR early in the shooting phase, you can always shoot up/assault whatever unit falls out.

 

How I generally play it is to use LCs/MLs to pop AV10-12 units at longrange to try and pin them in the opponent's deployment zone. This isolates his/her heavy armor push (LRs/Vindies) from infantry support, allowing me to jump it with multiple units without as much fear of retaliation. I've found this to be more effective than a massive melta war in the middle of the field, where my opponent's newly footslogging troops can still make an impact.