Why I love fighting AGAINST drop pod armies

[ghost9pm]

I run a (nearly) completely mech Black Templars army. A good friend of mine mentioned in passing that his drop pod army was way more offensive in nature than my mech Templars.

 

I disagreed. So we solved it the way gentleman do.

 

We dueled with pistols.

 

But we both missed so we decided to play a game. His codex 5 drop pod army lost.

 

Badly.

 

Drop Pods are a great fluffy unit, and can be downright deadly when paired with an Ironclad dreadnought, but with tactical marines, veterans, and other units it doesn't work out that well. Perhaps for friendly games in the gaming club but in a tournament you could make your list much more effective just by swapping into Rhinos.

 

Here's the problems with drop pod armies:

 

1.) You can't get back into them. And chances are you're playing a mission that involves objectives, so unless you drop right on top of the objective, you're going to have to run to an objective at some point. A Rhino offers more flexibility by allowing you to mount up and attack where you want.

 

2.) After they drop in, you lose the initiative. Your enemy now controls where the battle will be fought and can exploit your weaknesses. He will shoot at your close combat squads and charge your Tacticals and shooty squads. In loot counter missions, there's alot marines squatting on objectives on turn 1. That gives me at least 4 turns to deal with them one at a time.

 

3.) The opponent can reserve his entire army. When half of your pods drop in the first turn, they are now just sitting there in the open with nothing to shoot at. On your opponents turn he will isolate one squad and wipe it out or delay it until the rest of the army comes in to finish the job. If you buy a veteran squad with upgrades, you now have 200+ point unit sitting out in the open with no invulnerable save, no support, 1 wound a piece. They're going to die unless they move and take cover. If they move they can't shoot as far, so it defeats the purpose of dropping anyway.

 

4.) You can't fire your heavy weapons. Bolters are good when rapid firing, but they can't do much against a tank. Plus you have to take a full squad of 10 to be allowed a heavy or special weapon. You can't have a cheap 5 man squad in a pod with a meltagun. Suppose the conditions are perfect and you drop in perfectly without scatter and pop a tank with a meltashot. You might have taken out a 50 point rhino, but you can't shoot at what was inside of it. Your tactical squad is dead next turn. 50 point rhino for a 170 point tactical squad? I'll take that swap any day.

 

5.) Easy killpoints. Once you've delt with the squads, you can move on to the pods and get some more easy kills.

 

6.) Face it people, the deathwind isn't that great. It's only got a 12" range, S5 AP- hits so against marines it has to scatter first, then if it gets a few marines its going to wound on a 3+, but I get my 3+ armor save no matter what. It's more of a nuisance than a real threat. The points are better spent elsewhere. My opponent purchased one for each drop pod for 100 points total. In a 1500 point game that's alot of points to spend.

 

Like I said before, there are good ways to use them, such as when paired with a dreadnought, but there are too many drawbacks for drop pods to be used en masse in a competive list. They're fun in friendly games so you'll probably still win against your little brother and the young bloods but not against a smart veteran player with a well crafted list.

[Aidoneus]

Drop Pods can be excellent. Unlike Rhinos, your opponent can't see them coming, so they cannot 1) stop them, or 2) defend against them. But of course you have to use them right. You need to have a couple large tactical squads backed up by dreadnoughts and maybe sternguard, so that you can drop in right next to either vehicles or infantry and melta/flamer the hell out of them.

 

My preferred Drop Pod list would probably have Pedro Kantor, two tactical squads, 2 sternguard squads, and 2-3 dreadnoughts (maybe 1-2 ironclad and 1-2 regular). Add in some MM/HF land speeders if I had the points. My second most preferred list would probably be roughly the same except with Vulkan instead, drop the sternguard, add another tactical, max out the dreads, and maybe add more speeders.

 

Those two builds are nasty because they come down with overwhelming force (either sternguard or lots of linked meltas and flamers), and can therefore completely crush what they deep-strike near.

 

On the other hand, you do make a good point. The thing I think you're really complaining about though isn't drop pods, but all-drop-pod armies. This allows the opponent to know exactly when and how you're coming in, and adjust (for example, by staying in reserves). I play like that against all-drop-pod lists too, and you're right, it works! But I think you don't give enough credit to lists that mix pods with ground troops. If he's got a rhino tac squad and maybe a couple odd vehicles on the ground, you will have a much harder time setting up the entire game to fight his pods.

 

Honestly, I think they have their pros and cons. They're certainly not the be-all and end-all of space marine lists, but nor are they not worth taking.

[ghost9pm]

Exactly. Drop pods can be good when used right. But drop pod ARMIES are a joke.

 

Yeah a character with retinue in a drop pod backed up by a dread can be downright scary. They can't assault so will have to sit around a turn, but if they live, they're going to cause some damage. The problem is that if you only take one or two drop pods, you're going to have part of your army stranded while the rest is following up behind. Not a good idea.

 

I don't think that Tacticals or veterans should EVER be in drop pods. They're too expensive and fragile to withstand a round of shooting from the enemy and they can only deal minimal damage on the turn they come in since they count as moving. At least Kantor or a Dread can take some fire and live.

 

If you could choose when your drop pods were going to come in and where, THAT would be scary. Unfortunately people would abuse it and just drop their entire army on Turn 5. That would make for some boring games.

[greatcrusade08]

I havent checked this out myself, but do you HAVE to drop half the pods turn one, doesnt it say MAY in the codex.

So if you deployed in reserve the pods can choose to stay in reserve too?

 

Like i said i havent checked this out so be gentle if im wrong :)

 

GC08

[ghost9pm]

Yeah I'm looking at the entry and it does say you must drop half.

 

That means most drop pod players take an odd number of them so that the majority of their forces will drop on turn 1.

 

But that also means if I reserve everything I get to see where the majority of his army has dropped and ignore that section of the board. If you attack where he only has one or two squads with the bulk of your army he'll have to send something to help it.

 

In the game I played against my friend I dismantled his entire army one squad at a time. The only thing he had left on the board at the end of the game was Calgar and his honor guard. Since Calgar had to walk everywhere I just avoided him the entire game. He spent 400 points on a unit and I just drove right past it. That's kind of funny. lol

[ShinyRhino]

This is exactly the reason I stopped taking lots of drop pods in my army. I was dropping tacticals onto the field to great effect on the initial arrival. A boatload of bolter shots, plus a flamer or metagun did some nice damage. But, once I was there, I wasn't going anywhere. Typically, I'd take a ordnance barrage or massed fire to the face, and that would be the end of the squad.

So, now I only drop Dreads in pods, for the sheer mayhem they cause to both tanks and infantry.

[Giga]

Drop pod armies are more of a fun thing. Otherwise, they're too random to be competitive.

[ghost9pm]

Word. At least the model is pretty cool.

[NuclearMessiah]

Now having said all that Planetstrike is going to allow deepstrikers to assault the turn they come into play. So Daemon armies and drop pod list will become deadlier. Tac Marines are not that scary on the assault but ironclads are going to be a beats with 2 HF and those 2 DCCW.

[Cadarn]

I've got three drop pods, but not used them much. The success I have had has been with my Dread in one and my Stern Guard in the other. The Dread dropped on turn one took careful aim at the rear of my opponent's Land Raider and shot nothing but sky. Not great, but then he was forced to react to this threat in his back field, meaning I was more free to manoeuvre around the field.

 

On turn three, my Sternguard arrived and I was able to drop them right next to Dante and his assault squad buddies and gutted them with rapid fire vengeance rounds.

 

Beyond that, I like to keep my tacticals..well, tactical. With Drop Pods they are one trick ponies. With Rhinos they have choices. Especially if Sicarius is around and he can give them a boost with Scout.

[Arikel]

Don't you have to start a game with at least one unit in play? where does it say you can keep your whole list in reserve?

[jeffersonian000]

Pg 94 of the BRB, where it states that one or more units of an army may be placed in reserve.

 

SJ

[Grey Mage]

Here's the problems with drop pod armies:

 

1.) You can't get back into them. And chances are you're playing a mission that involves objectives, so unless you drop right on top of the objective, you're going to have to run to an objective at some point. A Rhino offers more flexibility by allowing you to mount up and attack where you want.

 

2.) After they drop in, you lose the initiative. Your enemy now controls where the battle will be fought and can exploit your weaknesses. He will shoot at your close combat squads and charge your Tacticals and shooty squads. In loot counter missions, there's alot marines squatting on objectives on turn 1. That gives me at least 4 turns to deal with them one at a time.

 

3.) The opponent can reserve his entire army. When half of your pods drop in the first turn, they are now just sitting there in the open with nothing to shoot at. On your opponents turn he will isolate one squad and wipe it out or delay it until the rest of the army comes in to finish the job. If you buy a veteran squad with upgrades, you now have 200+ point unit sitting out in the open with no invulnerable save, no support, 1 wound a piece. They're going to die unless they move and take cover. If they move they can't shoot as far, so it defeats the purpose of dropping anyway.

 

4.) You can't fire your heavy weapons. Bolters are good when rapid firing, but they can't do much against a tank. Plus you have to take a full squad of 10 to be allowed a heavy or special weapon. You can't have a cheap 5 man squad in a pod with a meltagun. Suppose the conditions are perfect and you drop in perfectly without scatter and pop a tank with a meltashot. You might have taken out a 50 point rhino, but you can't shoot at what was inside of it. Your tactical squad is dead next turn. 50 point rhino for a 170 point tactical squad? I'll take that swap any day.

 

5.) Easy killpoints. Once you've delt with the squads, you can move on to the pods and get some more easy kills.

 

6.) Face it people, the deathwind isn't that great. It's only got a 12" range, S5 AP- hits so against marines it has to scatter first, then if it gets a few marines its going to wound on a 3+, but I get my 3+ armor save no matter what. It's more of a nuisance than a real threat. The points are better spent elsewhere. My opponent purchased one for each drop pod for 100 points total. In a 1500 point game that's alot of points to spend.

 

Like I said before, there are good ways to use them, such as when paired with a dreadnought, but there are too many drawbacks for drop pods to be used en masse in a competive list. They're fun in friendly games so you'll probably still win against your little brother and the young bloods but not against a smart veteran player with a well crafted list.

1) So you drop your heavy hitters and keep your scoring units in reserve. Once youve taken out the enemy heavy hittiers your resillient dreadnaughts and wolf gaurd terminators take the hits from their line troops and come out damage, but able. Ive done this alot.... I really dont think its a problem. If your dropping in tactical equivilants first turn your being very very silly indeed.

 

2) Again.... why would you drop in all your scoring units in the first go round? No, thats just silly. You space them out a bit- atleast 1rst and second turn. And of course your going to shoot my assaulty and assault my shooty- your a competent player. Thankfully as a marine player your not much more assaulty than I am. In fact, as a templar player Im as assaulty as you are, potentially more so, and easily more shooty. Though admittedly Ill likely have fewer units.

 

3) So you reserved your entire army huh? Big woop- if you deployed first then guess what- I dont have to deploy in my DPs. Instead Ill deploy normally and use the DPs for cover. If you deploy second then Ill just deep strike near cover and stay out of LOS as much as possible and pick your army apart peicemeal. I know I have half my army on turn 1, you on the other hand have to hope you get what you need when you need it- starting second turn.

 

4) I cant get heavy weapons period- but those extra plasma pistols will do fine and dandy. If your playing a DP army and arent bring enough dreads and TDA to provide heavy weapon support then you need to rethink your tactics though. Thats just bad list building.

 

5) DPs are harder to kill than rhinos with their additional armor points, but Ill admit they do just about double the KP of your army... but all mounted forces have this problem *Shrugs*. Your a good player to take advantage of the fact though.

 

6) Again, your buddy has some bad listbuilding traits. One of the strengths of the DP is, like the rhino, that its cheap and effective for what it does. Addint more than half again the origional points cost in for a weapon thats arguably worse than its initial gunnery is silly. Out of seven DPs, I might take one of these on a Dreads DP... thats about it.

 

7) If your ever in MT USA let me know, Id love to play a game against you.

[Hellios]

In agree with Grey mage. I play an all off the board list (1 outflanking scout biker unit for fun pretty good at killing russ squadrons :) :)) and Terminators and Assault marines that DS without pods.

 

As GM says a good player DS in different ways depending on the enemies. DP marines, Daemons and Deathwing all share this issue. I mean you can argue it one way or another but I've seen deathwing players say they don't use Deathwing assault unless they are facing a gun line where they have no choice but to get in combat but prefer to foot slog using terrain and what fire power they have to weaken the enemy before going in for the kill.

[Bannus]

You don't have to deploy any pods in the first turn if you take Kor'sarro Khan. :devil:

[rat of vengence]

You don't have to deploy any pods in the first turn if you take Kor'sarro Khan. :)

Okay, I am curious. ;)

 

How does K. Khan manage that? You can't have a drop pod outflanking... :D

 

RoV

[Ceddyn]

You don't have to deploy any pods in the first turn if you take Kor'sarro Khan. :mellow:

Okay, I am curious. :P

 

How does K. Khan manage that? You can't have a drop pod outflanking... ^_^

 

RoV

 

I guess he means take Khan and outflank with transports. If that's not what was meant I would like some kind of explanation as well. Khan's rules say nothing about the drop pod assault.

[gainesdp]

I plan on using one drop pod unit with 10 sternguard with a decent number of combi-meltas for Ard Boyz.

 

Maybe 75% of my games I'll be deploying an empty drop pod, or dropping it near my deployment zone; however, in those games against IG with 3 squadrons of 3 tanks, I'm hoping they will prove useful. Sure they die, but if I can put some hurt on two squadrons of tanks, they were worthwhile.

[Ethrion]

I built a drop pod list for the fluff mainly, and it was one of my most successful lists actually. My regular opponents started to catch on though and began keeping everything in reserve.

 

The first time this happened I did think "oh crap, now what...my whole strategy had been to come down hard on everything on turn 1, now there's nothing to hit". It was an objective based game so I just brought everything down around the best location (a few objectives close to each other) and dug in using the terrain.

 

I like to give my tac squads a melta gun and a powerfist to deal with any threats on their own without necessarily relying on other units for support. Anyway long story short I dug in with everything and basically said "you want these objectives you need to come in and clear me out".

 

I had to change my strategy from all out attack to all out defence but it worked and I ended up winning. Overall I guess I'm saying that with the right drop pod list you can play it defensively if your enemy holds back in reserve.

[Grey Mage]

You don't have to deploy any pods in the first turn if you take Kor'sarro Khan. :P

Okay, I am curious. :D

 

How does K. Khan manage that? You can't have a drop pod outflanking... :D

 

RoV

Except Khan gives all units in your army outflanking, and a DP is a unit.

 

I have no idea how this would work, but its an odd hole in the rules for sure.

[rat of vengence]

You don't have to deploy any pods in the first turn if you take Kor'sarro Khan. :teehee:

Okay, I am curious. ^_^

 

How does K. Khan manage that? You can't have a drop pod outflanking... :angry:

 

RoV

Except Khan gives all units in your army outflanking, and a DP is a unit.

 

I have no idea how this would work, but its an odd hole in the rules for sure.

He can give pods outflank all he likes, there is no way of them using it. This does NOT get anyone out of half the pods hitting the table first turn. The Pod assault rule is very clear on this, and outflank does not provide an exception.

 

RoV

[Ceddyn]

You don't have to deploy any pods in the first turn if you take Kor'sarro Khan. :)

Okay, I am curious. ^_^

 

How does K. Khan manage that? You can't have a drop pod outflanking... :)

 

RoV

Except Khan gives all units in your army outflanking, and a DP is a unit.

 

I have no idea how this would work, but its an odd hole in the rules for sure.

 

It isn't a hole at all. Outflanking doesn't take away the DP assault rule, which says you always have to drop half of the pods in turn 1. The rest of them you can outflank as far as I'm concerned since an immobile outflanking unit enters with deep strike, which is how a pod always enters.

[Bannus]

Outflaning units enter from Reserve using the normal Reserves rules.

 

As Khan allows ALL dedicated transports (a drop pod is always a dedicated transport) to Outflank (and arrive from Reserve), the the drop pods may also do the same. As Khan's rules over-ride the normal deployment rules, they also over-ride the Drop Pod Assault rules.

[Grey Mage]

You don't have to deploy any pods in the first turn if you take Kor'sarro Khan. :devil:

Okay, I am curious. ^_^

 

How does K. Khan manage that? You can't have a drop pod outflanking... :huh:

 

RoV

Except Khan gives all units in your army outflanking, and a DP is a unit.

 

I have no idea how this would work, but its an odd hole in the rules for sure.

He can give pods outflank all he likes, there is no way of them using it. This does NOT get anyone out of half the pods hitting the table first turn. The Pod assault rule is very clear on this, and outflank does not provide an exception.

 

RoV

Except you can choose to declare they are being held in reserves in order to outflank and then they must do so... and thus cannot DS.

 

Its odd, I know... but its there. However IIRC youd have to put them into BtB contact with the table edge they are declared to outflank from, and they just stay there.

[rat of vengence]

Outflaning units enter from Reserve using the normal Reserves rules.

 

As Khan allows ALL dedicated transports (a drop pod is always a dedicated transport) to Outflank (and arrive from Reserve), the the drop pods may also do the same. As Khan's rules over-ride the normal deployment rules, they also over-ride the Drop Pod Assault rules.

Yes, Khan overrides normal deployment rules, but drop pods have special rules that say things such as ALWAYS and MUST. It doesn't leave any room for alternatives at all. Unless you are claiming that Khan's special rule overrides the drop pod special rule somehow? Considering there is no mechanic at all for pods flanking;

Except you can choose to declare they are being held in reserves in order to outflank and then they must do so... and thus cannot DS.

Its odd, I know... but its there. However IIRC youd have to put them into BtB contact with the table edge they are declared to outflank from, and they just stay there.

and this 'solution' has no rules basis, then I consider it obvious that this wouldn't work, and shouldn't be allowed. Dedicated transport or not, there is simply no rules legal way for a drop pod to arrive on the table except via deep strike, meaning pods MUST follow their special rule.

 

I detect high levels of shonky in this overriding of a special rule :P

 

RoV