ghost9pm Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Here's an idea. Let's get 2 Land Raiders Why not fill them both up with Terminators for 400 points? Then get another Terminator Assault Squad that can deep strike in for another 200 Get a 200 point special character maybe? Of course it has to be the biggest baddest mofo in the Codex. Who cares about points. Better yet, take 2 Special Characters. Then get 2 scout squads and you've got a legal army. Sadly there's probably someone playing this somewhere. If I ever run into that person I'm going to sell my Space Marine army and start playing Dark Eldar, just out of spite. Okay. I apologize for the sarcasm but I really need someone to help me out here. Can someone give me an example of a competitive space marine list that doesn't use multiple land raiders or characters? Can the Space Marines win games without them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 You're bitter. =P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedwin183 Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 No, you're not going to find a list like this. SM don't have the level of awesomeness that is the Ork dex or the chaos dex (the two top tier tournament dexes), so you make due with what you have; Land Raiders and awesome special characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fintan Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I have a 1000pt list that's unbeaten over 21 games thus far, it contains no special characters or "uber" units and yes Ghost, I'm entirely in the same frame of mind as you. People using special characters and 1st company units in small games, or a disproportionate amount of 1st company units and special characters in larger games makes me want to smack them over the head with a big club of fluffiness. However, I think it's also unrealistic for everyone to be as cool as us ( :D ) and so the best way to get around it is to play to your own playstyle and figure out a list that's competitive for you without sacrificing what you find important. Contrary to popular opinion, I believe that the most optimised list is also the list that you have the most fun with and also the list that you're most comfortable with. Some armies can be automatically competitive AND fluffy, which is brilliant, others require more work but they can still yield a competitive army. Don't get worked up over it mate, it's never worth it. Nothing quite beats the feeling of crushing a cheesey list with an army that deserves to have it's own novel 'cos it's just so damn cool. Horses for courses, rock on brother, don't let it get you down. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teal Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I have a 1000pt list that's unbeaten over 21 games thus far, it contains no special characters or "uber" units You gonna post that list? I'm interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
earthen Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 what? you dont like people that run 5 LRs in a 1500 point game?!?! run vulkan :tu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I AM THE AWESOME Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 And the point of this topic is...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fintan Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I have a 1000pt list that's unbeaten over 21 games thus far, it contains no special characters or "uber" units You gonna post that list? I'm interested. Of course, it's my first 5th Edition consistent list and B+C was instrumental in helping me assemble it. :( HQ - Chaplain with Jump Pack + Melta Bombs - 120pts Troops - 10 man Tactical Squad - 230pts MM + Flamer + PF Rhino Transport 10 man Tactical Squad - 275pts PC + Flamer + PF Razorback Transport TLLC or TLAC Fast Attack10 man Assault Squad - 235pts 2x Flamers + PF MM+HF Landspeeder - 70pts MM+HF Landspeeder - 70pts 1000pts There's no such thing as a perfect list, but I find this army fits in perfectly with my playstyle, synergises well and that the units compliments/supports each other brilliantly. So far I've played Space Marine gunline, Space Marine dual-landraiders, Space Marine balanced, IG gunline, Nidzilla, Deathguard (Nurgle CSM), Nurgle Demons, CSM balanced, CSM themed, Mech-Orks, Dark Eldar balanced, DA Ravenwing, Daemonhunters, Witch-hunters (SoB), Tau gunline and Space Marine mech and variants of some of those listed as well. The closest games were Nurgle Demons and Ravenwing which were the only two games that I've scored a draw in so far, the high toughness and FnP in both armies was incredibly troublesome for me, and something that I intend to rectify with my approach to the game next time, though funnily I seemed to have an easier time against Nidzilla, despite the amount of T7 Carnifexes about the place. Weird. :tu: I'd like to test it out against Chaoszilla, Eldar (Absolutely no-one in my LGS plays them), Horde Orks and a more cheesey Deathguard list, just to really fine-tune it, but so far I'm absolutely delighted with it. It won a mini-tournament we had whilst staying themed to the 5th Company of a White Scars successor chapter. I know that it's not a played tournament points level, and I've got a larger tournament on the 28th June where I'm experimenting with an all-bike army, but I'd like to think it's a vein of proof that more balanced armies can also be competitive. Thanks again to everyone who helped me put it together. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fintan Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 And the point of this topic is...? To discuss something spawned from another thread without derailing said thread. Now hush your noise and go make me some tea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
earthen Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 oh christ. i responded in the other thread. oh well. Of course, it's my first 5th Edition consistent list and B+C was instrumental in helping me assemble it. smile.gif thats great! i like hearing things like that. im happy you found a list you enjoy that works well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 @ Fintan While it's perfectly fine that you got yourself a 1000 point list without any special characters and LRs (which is what I'd do, as well, since LR/special char price tends to cripple the list at such small battles), I seriously don't see what's so original or, as you said, "worth writing a book about" in it? To me, a LR-thick assault or a flamer/melta heavy vulkan list are a lot more characterful and interesting to look at then an every-day combination of standard units (speeders, assault marines, tacticals) that your list is based upon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balog Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 I'm a newb drawn to the fluff; it's why I want to play. I want to run a counts-as Vulkan list w/ TH/SS termies because I think big ass hammers and flamethrowers are cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadaeux Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 To me, a LR-thick assault or a flamer/melta heavy vulkan list are a lot more characterful and interesting to look at then an every-day combination of standard units (speeders, assault marines, tacticals) that your list is based upon. The problem is it isn't more characterful or interesting to look at. Due to the 'popularity' of such "powergame" lists anyone who sees one thinks "Crap, another powergamer". After seeing TEN such lists in a local tourney you soon find yourself feeling good that you field "every-day combination of standard units" because its not "every-day" anyone who fields such (like myself with a pure Drop-list.) are the rare ones. The "a LR-thick assault or a flamer/melta heavy vulkan list" has become the "Every-day" list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonidus Novarus Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 At my Local game spot 5 people play space marines, out of those 5 i am the only one to avoid 1st company units/special characters and my 1500 point list has lost 1 game :P And I can assure you all it is NOT because of a tactically sound commander (I suck big time, hence the reason I like space marines) Although I do like to field a lot of Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield units lol, but those aren't cheap on anything :P Once out of curiosity I wanted to see how long my 1500 point force would hold against 1000 points of orks and 1000 of chaos. My Captain and his TH/SS wielding command squad certainly earned their title during that fight, by the end of 6 hours gaming, 100 dead orks 30 dead chaos marines and quite a few vehicles had been "decommissioned" space marine stlye B) But yeah to get back on topic I do think Space marine players who avoid the 1st company. special characters and the Land Raiders are hard to come by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 The problem is it isn't more characterful or interesting to look at. Due to the 'popularity' of such "powergame" lists anyone who sees one thinks "Crap, another powergamer". After seeing TEN such lists in a local tourney you soon find yourself feeling good that you field "every-day combination of standard units" because its not "every-day" anyone who fields such (like myself with a pure Drop-list.) are the rare ones. The "a LR-thick assault or a flamer/melta heavy vulkan list" has become the "Every-day" list. And yet still this LR-thick list or vulkan list is more entertaining to look at thanks to the presence of all the big killers. No matter how you take it, a couple big tanks with all kinds of veterans sporting stuff like thunder hammers, storm shields, relic blades, etc. and supported by a couple tactical squads are more entertaining to look at (and play with and against) then a, say, half-company list of 3 tac squads, assault squad, and a dev squad. Also, what's this with the entire "omg he's a powergamer" thing? I thought only kids take that seriously, yet you people seem to talk about it like every gamer in your area is a cheese-caller. =P I mean, there are lots of people in my local gaming club that play fluffy lists. However, they are aware they're gimping themselves and they don't go around crying cheese and powergamer as soon as they see a 2 LR list or the like. In fact, they savor the challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yergerjo Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 The annoying thing to me is those people who have jumped on the bandwagon later on vs those of us who used that play style before the new C:SM came out or those who just suddenly realized how beneficial Vulkan is a list and now everyone uses him. Making others look like cheese weasels or accusing us of cut and paste from the internet. My 1850 Vulkan list has been in progress of refinement for 9 months now; and it's finally where I want it, for tournament play. I moved back in January and the store I started going to had no Marine players (everyone had switched to Chaos/Demons/Xenos) yet I showed up, started busting face and suddenly there's 5-6 new marine players all running vulkan. Arg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadaeux Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 And yet still this LR-thick list or vulkan list is more entertaining to look at thanks to the presence of all the big killers. No its not more entertaining to look at, its more like "Ok, check of three hundredth Land Raider seen, check of seventieth Vulkan, oh look the thousandth Terminator squad! Give that man a sticker. No matter how you take it, a couple big tanks with all kinds of veterans sporting stuff like thunder hammers, storm shields, relic blades, etc. and supported by a couple tactical squads are more entertaining to look at (and play with and against) then a, say, half-company list of 3 tac squads, assault squad, and a dev squad. No they aren't. Seeing something one after the other isn't entertaining its "don't these morons have ANY imagination. Also, what's this with the entire "omg he's a powergamer" thing? I thought only kids take that seriously, yet you people seem to talk about it like every gamer in your area is a cheese-caller. =P No, its very real, you see MANY people who build lists specifically to pack the most power into a small package tailored for their opponent or at least close to good against everything. And all these lists come out looking identical and boring. To the point where I relish facing NECRONS for the Variety of units thrown at me! (Ok that is a bit of exaggeration.) I don't have and problems playing those lists but I find the boring as all hell because it is all you ever see. It reached such a point of cheese that our club ended up forbidding ANY special Characters for ANY games. INCLUDING Apocalypse. (When you play an Apocalypse game and SIX players take a "Vulkan counts as" you'll know why. I mean, there are lots of people in my local gaming club that play fluffy lists. However, they are aware they're gimping themselves and they don't go around crying cheese and powergamer as soon as they see a 2 LR list or the like. In fact, they savor the challenge. See there it is first you say "I though powergamer only kids took seriously" yet there you are saying that someone who plays a fluffy or balance list is "gimping themselves" When its at the point where playing the game as it was meant to be played is "gimping" yourself then you're a powergamer, the sort who take the joy out of the game for everyone else. @Yeryerjo: I can see what you're saying mate and agree with it somewhat, those of you who do it simply because of the fluff I have no problems with, but it is impossible for me to see a list with Vulkan in it and not assume i'm playing some powergaming git who's in it only for the win. (Which makes it all the more precious when I trash his army) And because he's become "Powergame Central" for Marine Armies any list I see with him in it i'll assume i'm up against a powergamer until I'm convinced otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balog Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 So I can't play how I want, or try to make a good list, because you'll make assumptions about my character? Wow..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadaeux Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 So I can't play how I want, or try to make a good list, because you'll make assumptions about my character? Wow..... Only if I see Vulkan, I don't actually care about the rest. Double Land Raiders = Easier to kill than 500+ points of something else :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balog Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Before I had ever read anything about the actual game, I thought meltas and flamers were really cool. I bought a C:SM and said "Hey look, this guy's a real bad ass and he'd make my favorite weapons better. Cool." Apparently this makes me a bad person. On that note, I hear Space Marines are one of the most common army types. Should I return the AoBR I just bought and play Dark Eldar or Necrons or something so my opponenets don't go "Oh man, not another Spehz Muhreen player"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VariableBob Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 It reached such a point of cheese that our club ended up forbidding ANY special Characters for ANY games. INCLUDING Apocalypse. (When you play an Apocalypse game and SIX players take a "Vulkan counts as" you'll know why. Given that GW restructured the codex such that the only way to play a non-ultramarines force was by taking a special character, that is the lamest rule I have ever heard. Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Raven Guard, White Scars, Salamanders and all of their successors, sucks to be you! Before I had ever read anything about the actual game, I thought meltas and flamers were really cool. I bought a C:SM and said "Hey look, this guy's a real bad ass and he'd make my favorite weapons better. Cool." Apparently this makes me a bad person. On that note, I hear Space Marines are one of the most common army types. Should I return the AoBR I just bought and play Dark Eldar or Necrons or something so my opponenets don't go "Oh man, not another Spehz Muhreen player"? Apparently, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balog Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 It seems silly, given that even on here most people feel Space Marines are 2nd or 3rd tier for tourney games. If someone is a real powergamer, why would they choose an army type that is less powerful to start with? Just confusing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fintan Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Vulkan is a special character. There is ONE of him in the entire 40k Universe. What are the chances that he's going to be leading an assault of 40 odd marines in a random skirmish against a rag-tag group of Orks? Not likely. What are the chances he's going to be doing that repeatedly? Again, fairly slim. What are the chances that that small strike force is going to be backed up by over 10% of the entire Chapters 1st company? You do the math. I also disagree heartily with the power-gaming lists being more interesting, they're so common they're actually incredibly predictable. There's nothing I enjoy more than playing odd-ball armies that have character and soul, instead of "Yeah, this is 'ard, let's wack it in this AV14 vehicle and ram it into the opponent." No-one's suggesting you play something else, but if you pick a generic cheesey list expect those who have put more thought into their army than the power to manipulate dice-rolls to take the moral high ground. I like to think of it as encouraging the imagination. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balog Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Moral high ground?!?! You know, as a new person to the game you guys and Warseer are pretty much my view into what 40k is all about. And that picture is getting less appealing by the minute. ;) "I'm better than you because my little toy soldiers are soooooooo much more thoughtful than yours, loser!" Moral high ground, dear God..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twin .44 Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 almost sound off topic these days. I have a quite decent W/L/D ratio and I have no Land Raider in my lists. I barely have any anti-tank/armor come to think of it. What I usually run is Kantor 3-4 tactical squads (various weaponry, usually powerfists and rhino's) 1 full sternguard with PF, 3 combi weapons, and a drop pod. 2 Whirlwinds vindicator with some fixins. and if the points are high enough I'll toss in lysander and/or a terminator squad. I eat horde and Daemons for breakfast although struggle a wee bit when it comes to MEQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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