Double Land Raider Lists subtopic

[Balog]

/sigh

 

I like TH/SS, meltas, and flamers. Did long before I bought the C:SM or logged onto this forum. They're one of the things that drew me into playing, along with dreadnoughts. So if I want to take a list with lots of TH/SS, meltas, and flamers because I like those weapons, then not taking Vulkan would be gimping myself.

 

The reason I sigh is because I've already said all this. I also find it highly interesting that when you say "People who do X are motivated by Y, and I really love crushing them because I feel extra superior and smug" that's just fine, but my getting upset is highly over reacting.

 

If you feel any type of superiority because you play with your little toy soldiers in the proper way, and all those other people are just big ole meanie head powergamers who are ruining your fun then I really do pity you. It's a game man. If it's not fun for you to play against certain kinds of lists then don't.

[Kadaeux]

I like TH/SS, meltas, and flamers. Did long before I bought the C:SM or logged onto this forum. They're one of the things that drew me into playing, along with dreadnoughts. So if I want to take a list with lots of TH/SS, meltas, and flamers because I like those weapons, then not taking Vulkan would be gimping myself.

 

See you're doing it again. Not taking Vulkan isn't gimping yourself, he isn't a requirement or staple to the point that lacking him will cripple you. He exists to ENHANCE a certain theme. The problem is its unbalanced so that all the morons out there going for a Min/Max list take him as the be all and end all. As such those who play for THEME are lost amongst those who want to win using everything short of cheating (and sometimes including the cheating).

 

The reason I sigh is because I've already said all this. I also find it highly interesting that when you say "People who do X are motivated by Y, and I really love crushing them because I feel extra superior and smug" that's just fine, but my getting upset is highly over reacting.

 

Because, (being new to the hobby you haven't been exposed to them yet) there are a large number of people who ARE "people who do X are motivated by Y" Enough that you get so tired of them that hammering their army is a pleasure, you shake hands afterwards and send them on their way (assuming they will even descend far enough to touch us common peons :rolleyes:

 

If you feel any type of superiority because you play with your little toy soldiers in the proper way, and all those other people are just big ole meanie head powergamers who are ruining your fun then I really do pity you. It's a game man. If it's not fun for you to play against certain kinds of lists then don't.

 

See what you did there, I did.

 

I have no problems playing against it, in fact so long as my opponent doesn't cheat, (And i'll know if he does, I have all the Codexes) then I don't care what army they field, i'll take on all comers. And yes I form a pre-formed opinion of those who take Vulkan, but i'm happy to be proven wrong, especially since I don't make it clear I have this opinion, after all everyone deserves a chance. But if the hiss and boo over ever bad dice roll they make and every good one I make and do the opposite when the opposite happens then I won't be revising my opinion.

 

What I have been saying is what a lot of people will think upon SEEING such a list. (Except fellow Vulkan-takers.)

 

 

 

 

 

On another note.

 

Is it just me or did GW create 3rd Edition to get away from the focus on Special Characters as game-winning elements only to roll back that decision entirely with the newest codexes?

[Balog]

Meh, if you feel that judging someone based on a number of their statements and judging someone based on one character in their army is equivalent....

 

I would also like to point out that you presuppose those who play for THEME are inherently superior to those who play to win. If this was a roleplaying "game" like DnD I'd agree, but in this context it seems rather silly.

 

Perhaps I'm wrong; wouldn't be the first time. Maybe all the people posting Vulkan lists over in the Army List forum really are jerks with poor sportsmanship. Perhaps you are justified in that prejudice. But I see no benefit to either of us continuing this conversation. Enjoy your gaming.

[Kadaeux]

Meh, if you feel that judging someone based on a number of their statements and judging someone based on one character in their army is equivalent....

 

Everyone judges off of first glance. Its a fact, in the first few seconds of seeing someone you will make judgements conciously or subconciously. I expand that to include how they behave during a game. When I referred to the "booing" I didn't mean the friendly in game ribbing, i'm referring to outright hostile snark.

 

I would also like to point out that you presuppose those who play for THEME are inherently superior to those who play to win. If this was a roleplaying "game" like DnD I'd agree, but in this context it seems rather silly.

 

No, I'm not referring to theme, i'm referring to playing it as it was meant to be played, fair, balanced and most importantly, fun for everyone involved.

 

Perhaps I'm wrong; wouldn't be the first time. Maybe all the people posting Vulkan lists over in the Army List forum really are jerks with poor sportsmanship. Perhaps you are justified in that prejudice. But I see no benefit to either of us continuing this conversation. Enjoy your gaming.

 

Not all. In fact most of the people on the forums are the better side of the gaming. But, depending on where you are, you will likely see the ugly side of it, typically though the ugly side of it doesn't go to pick-me-ups often or the gaming stores, they prefer to hit up the tourneys from what i've seen. (Though my skin crawls whenever I see an unpainted army, in fact that is the only type of army I won't play.)

[Commander Sasha]

If I was a real Chapter Master, and it was real guys who were going out to fight real gribblies, with real weapons, I would use every trick, tactic and weapon I could, honourable or not. This would also apply if I was entering a tournament with a cash prize.

 

If I was primarily interested in fielding an army with an elaborate background story, and knights of honour who hated witches, I wouldn't use Psykers.

 

Three legged races are funny because the self imposed preposterous conditions are what makes it amusing.

 

All you need to do is find opponents that are of a similar mind to you as to what makes a good game, and only play them. Oh, and to have complete respect for the other two types of player, for either being more motivated, more imaginative or more playful.

 

Your cheesy beardy powergame is someone else's Formula One.

[yergerjo]

Personally I understand how people feel about Vulkan lists, I play one. I'm about to the point of not using it anymore save for tournaments. My last few games: Eldar, Blood Angels, Marines; have felt like I was just Face-Punching my opponent. I wasn't having fun running it myself, sure I enjoy planning superior strategy and using tactics but when things feel uneven it starts to lose its appeal.

 

Vulkan is a boost, he gives a lot for his points, and yes is abuse-able. Yet still in my lists I maintain a higher percentage of troops while not overly spamming one thing or another. Its also not unbeatable, assault me and I go down hard, Mech-Eldar are a pain, Demons I still haven't figured out, bugs bugs bugs. I feel bad because it is a game and it is a hobby that is meant to be fun for everyone. I have about 30 models to finish painting to complete my 11000 points of Imperium; when those are done, I've already bought the army, I'm switching to a lot of blue and gold; I'm starting up a Thousand Sons army, no generic chaos but a lot of Rubrics. This will be completely not optimized yet fun.

[Balog]

I suppose the discussion here is whether Vulkan is so overpowered that taking him is abuse of an exploit.

[Morticon]

This thread is getting way too heated. I'm calling a temporary pause while people can think about what they need to or want to say sans flame-baiting/trolling.

 

 

I'll open it later after all posts have been properly reviewed.

[Morticon]

First off,

Anymore personal attacks and those involved get warnings off the bat. In addition to the ones that have already been sent out.

 

Secondly,

“One man’s meat is another man’s poison”.

 

That alone should quell any heated discussion on this matter.

 

Commander Sasha has summed it up best in this thread.

 

Kadeux,

your posts and stated opinions are filled with gross subjectivities and assumptions. You leave little to no room for any disagreeing game style which, is just plain wrong.

 

“No, I'm not referring to theme, I'm referring to playing it as it was meant to be played, fair, balanced and most importantly, fun for everyone involved.”

 

You’re not a game designer. You have as much right and inner knowledge to assert how 40k is meant to be played as any of the countless thousands of players out there.

I have great fun playing against hard lists.

Others do too.

The difference or issue is realizing when people do not enjoy it and adjusting accordingly.

Reference to the one thing I do agree in your statement was “fun for everyone involved”. You're right there.

 

 

To the topic at hand, it’s also REALLY important to realize that friendly games and tournament games are entirely different beasts.

 

In a tournament you can play for fun, but most play for the competitive enjoyment.

Why go to an event that you have paid cash for to not try and do your best?

 

It’s like being Usain Bolt and paying a fee to run in the 100m and then jogging.

What’s the point?

 

If you do not take THE best combination that works for YOU, then you are gimping yourself.

 

In some cases this will be a list like Fintan’s where he doesn’t use special characters, but he uses a combination of models that work for him.

This works for him, so taking out a unit will be gimping himself.

In other cases of other people it will be other models, units or combinations that if removed will have an adverse effect, sometimes regardless of how easy the list can be played.

 

Looking down on another player for his list selections speaks volumes of our innate quality of resistance to change.

Why?

Because the only reason one would have a problem with it was if you couldn’t deal with it.

If your army could eat a double raider list, why would you care?

So, it suggests that it’s one’s own inability to beat said list that creates the tension.

The most obvious solution would be to change your own list to factor this in, no?

 

We really do need to get over ourselves a tad.

 

There are two extremes of both views, or moreover two events that arise on the extreme side.

 

The first is the unpleasant powergamer player, that not only designs a list that is believed by his peers to be “unfriendly” but also has an attitude that echoes his choices.

There’s no excuse for being a tool.

Sadly, the two things go hand in hand all too often.

 

You can play a powerful list, and still be a good, fun and enjoyable gamer.

I like to think I do, and I am, respectively.

So, if your inability to have fun is influenced by a powerful enemy list and not his fun, cheerful and sporting character –

then chances are you’re either not a good player or your list needs to be re-worked.

 

The second extreme is a HUGE pet peeve of mine.

 

The “cheese criers”.

 

“Cheese” in WAY too many players opinion is quite simply something they can’t deal with.

Once again – we really need to get over ourselves a tad.

 

Useless limitations like “no special characters” or “no multiples of units” or “X number of Y weapons only” is exactly what the game designers did not intend.

(How do I know this, being just another gamer in the sea of thousands? Cause it’s in the bloody codex! )

 

The sad, sad slippery slope problem of this “cheese crying” is it eventually devolves into anything they simply don’t like.

 

I’ve seen BA lists called cheesy cause they have 8-10 death company or 2 Baals or Dante.

It’s not even arguably cheesy, it’s just something some player somewhere doesn’t like and/or can’t handle.

 

No list is unbeatable.

But there are some that are much harder than others.

I say bring it!

 

But as mentioned before, it’s up to gamers to realize the environment in which they are gaming and adjust their lists accordingly.

We have no right as fellow frater online to criticize other gamers simply cause our gaming group is stubborn or requires that we don’t play our best units for fear of upsetting each other.

 

We’re entitled to that freedom of play style.

We're entitled to share it with others.

We’re not entitled to impose it on others we don’t know or don’t play with, or pretend it's in anyway better than theirs.

 

Just my thoughts for the day.

[Arcaren]

Hello, I think and hope this forum is open again.

 

Morticon (he is a server admin right ????) summed up

all the random discussions and heated debates.

 

Every army list that follows the rules (household or tournament)

is legal. Yes some lists tend to repeat but its ok we all love

different parts of this hobby. Besides ^_^ don't we all come to

this forum for advice and fun. :cuss well hopefully.

 

I have played 40k since 3rd edition and only recently have I perfected

my fluffly and absurd army list here it is.

 

Blood Templar (Standard Space Marine Codex)

 

135 HQ - Commander - counts as chaplain, termi armor, combi-FL, pw, 4+ inv

 

205 Elites - Terminators - Heavy Flamer

 

200 Elites - Venerable Dread - Extra Armor, Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer

 

230 Troops - Tac Squad - ML, FL, PF, Rhino

 

230 Troops - Tac Squad - ML, FL, PF, Rhino

 

This represents a small mobile strike force of marines and their supervising

leader (Venerable Dreadnought) if they get stuck in an extremely dangerous

or important battle the company commander teleports in with his personal

bodyguard.

 

I field my tactical squads on the board next to the ven dread. Depending on my

enemy I either wait for them or go tear them apart. I prefer the rules of a chaplain

because he provides buffs to the terminator squad (Litanies of Hate anyone). And

I deep strike my terms :o but it works. By the time my Tac squads and Dread

have gotten stuck in the terms arrive and blaze away with a horribly violent shooting

phase :P . This army is very small but oh so fun to play ( and expensive could have

taken a whirlwind and cheap dread instead), but go on just try and stop my ven

dread.

 

Win-Loss Ratio (all different players and armies)

 

Balanced Nids - Annihilation - Victory

 

Balanced Nids - Annihilation - Victory

 

Wraith Heavy Eldar - Capture and Control - Tie

 

Balanced Nids - Capture and Control - Victory

 

Necrons - Seize Ground - Victory

 

So yes there are an infinite number of neat little lists that are competitive. It just takes

some play testing and practice. Hope this helps.

 

with respect,

Arcaren

[Fintan]

Would just like to offer my apologies to anyone I upset yesterday in this thread, looking back at my comments I came off as a bit aggressive which was never my intent. I appreciate that everyone has differing opinions on how the game should be played best and I allowed myself to get riled over certain misinterpretations by both parties, resulting in a childish reaction.

 

So, here's to the B+C community, I appreciate the wealth of knowledge on here and the effort taken by those to answer players questions in a mature manner. Here's hoping I can continue to add to that. :)

 

Fintan.

[Giga]

Morticon said it very, very well. I applaud you, sir, and agree with your whole post. B)

[adam_dup]

Hmm...

 

What I do is run a hard as I can think of list for tournaments... Because we want to win a tournament and have challenging games. If my hard as list has two lR's then it does.

 

I do a fluffier list for my local gaming club. Well no actually its not fluffier, it's just not as hard. Because I'm playing a fun game against people who may not be able to run a hard as list for various reasons.

 

Vulkan is in the codex to be used. He runs around the galaxy looking for artifacts calling whatever portion of the Salamanders are around for assistance, and getting it without question. So why the hell shouldn't he be leading 1000 pts against some ragtag orks? This could be his scouting party assessing the situation to decide whether or npt the big boys are going to be called in.

 

And you say we have no imagination.

 

Balog don't let this **** drag you out of an awesome hobby

 

Edit: Just read Morticons post which pretty much summed up my opinion (I had this thread open for a while before I read it)

[Fintan]

This could be his scouting party assessing the situation

 

If his scouting party includes Landraiders and Assault Terminators, I'd hate to think of what the "big boys" consist of. :)

[Pigeons]

my two cents:

 

 

i think both sides of this argument are missing the point.

 

 

the whole idea behind the game is just having fun. getting annihilated by a "powergamer" army is still more fun than doing your desk job, or hanging out with the in-laws, right?

 

 

i'm still in the process of collecting and painting up my first army, and have yet to play an actual game, so at this point i'd just be happy to be playing, i wouldn't really care what army i was playing against.

 

 

and losing should motivate you to develop new tactics or make tweaks to your list, not motivate you to complain about the army selection of your opponent.

 

 

and besides, if you really don't like those special characters, why not ask your opponent to just use them as a counts as normal HQ choice instead, in the interest of keeping it more fair in smaller games?

[chapter master 454]

I used to take 3 land raiders (yes 3, I know it ain't nice) but now I have a way of being able to have fun, but to me land raiders are just big bases that can move around giving good support and occasionally use them as a full out battering ram to shatter enemy lines (rare, because they often ether sit back and blast or unload some unit into the enemy and just make sure they get the job done) however I find that while terminators are the prime choice for it I just don't use it because I do have some fluff behind me to have fun, every leader I have leads a squad of units unique to them and always will, the only change being the weapon selection on them so to me taking lysander is not 200 points but 450 because I take 5 terminators with 4 chainfists and a CML and they do very well (and even against other lists like mine, they shred the enemy armour. So much overkill I feel I over-do it, but hey better over-do than under-do!).

 

Generally speaking I think this is an eternal war, the fluffs vs. the powers. And so I now add the cop out arguement: to each man (or woman) his/her own!

[Captain Caudronus]

Just quickly...

 

I am a painter more of a gamer which ironically causes me to try and field a reasonably competitive army list. Why? I don't really want an army of mine I have spent a year painting to be blown off the field by a load of grey plastic. I have nothing against people who field competitive, non painted armies - not everyone has the time to paint a full army - I just don't like losing against the armies themselves.

 

Also for me part of the fun of 40k is trying to optimise army lists i.e. getting the "most" for your points spent. However, what isn't fun is exploiting something which is clearly broken in an army Codex. These units / characters I tend to stay clear of.

 

I will briefly share my views on Vulcan as he seems to have caused quite a bit of discussion. I personally am sceptical of anyone who says they're bringing him for a fluff based reason. Why? Because he doesn't add aesthetics to ones army - he brings a rule that is broken. If you like flamers or meltas upgrade those land speeders with heavy flamers or get another attack bike with a multimelta with the spare points from downgrading Vulcan to a normal commander. My point being you can still field an army full of flamers, multimeltas and thunder hammers without taking Vulcan. They don't only become useable, points wise, once Vulcan has been taken. Until recently people couldn't even say they took him for the model as there wasn't one.

 

As far as big tournaments are concerned however, the name of the game is to win - all army lists (in my opinion) are entirely acceptable :cry:

[Giga]

Gotha agree with the above post.

 

When I spend hours and days painting an army, I want that army to go out and kill stuff and win battles, not get wiped off the table faster then you can read this sentence. ;)

[Balog]

Also for me part of the fun of 40k is trying to optimise army lists i.e. getting the "most" for your points spent. However, what isn't fun is exploiting something which is clearly broken in an army Codex. These units / characters I tend to stay clear of.

 

Which seems to be rather the point. Is Vulkan, in fact, clearly broken? I don't know either way, but I'd like to find out.

[Giga]

Also for me part of the fun of 40k is trying to optimise army lists i.e. getting the "most" for your points spent. However, what isn't fun is exploiting something which is clearly broken in an army Codex. These units / characters I tend to stay clear of.

 

Which seems to be rather the point. Is Vulkan, in fact, clearly broken? I don't know either way, but I'd like to find out.

Well, depends how you define broken.

 

As a model on his own, Vulkan is probably killier then a captain with same gear, because Vulkan's relic blade is master crafted, and he has a twin-linked heavy flamer. However, it should be mentioned that a regular captain can take an auxiliary grenade launcher and/or a combiweapon. In addition, Vulkan doesn't have access to a command squad, since he's not a captain (he's an ex-captain).

 

However, the thing with Vulkan is he drastically improves all flamers, heavy flamers, meltaguns, multimeltas, and thunder hammers in your army. So if you fix an army with lots of these weapons, Vulkan basically ends up dramatically improving your entire army's killing potential by just being a part of your list.

 

Now, this wouldn't be a problem in itself, but the fact is; Vulkan should be more expensive for what he does (at least another 20-30 points, certainly more then Lysander). OR, he should be much weaker on his own (like Pedro Cantor is). At only 190 points, there's just no reason not to take Vulkan. His chapter tactics walks all over Combat Tactics, and on his own he's a great model (I often let him solo-attack entire squads of necron warriors, marines with no powerfist, scouts etc.).

 

He's not broken. It's just that his price is done all wrong - same as with most other special characters in the vanilla codex. He should either be considerably more expensive, or the regular HQs should be much cheaper.

[Balog]

Hmmm, interesting. So the main issue is his cost vs other SM special characters and vanilla HQs? How do the costs compare to non-Marine SC's and HQ's?

[Giga]

Hmmm, interesting. So the main issue is his cost vs other SM special characters and vanilla HQs? How do the costs compare to non-Marine SC's and HQ's?

Well, the main issue is that GW wasn't smart enough to make the SM rules differently. In my opinion, they should've made it possible for standard chapter masters and captains to buy "special tactics" upgrades (one per HQ). For example, you could buy "Fire & Brimstone" that would replace your combat tactics with Salamander Chapter Tactics (which is what Vulkan has). This way it'd be better fluff-wise, and it'd open up many many more options when building one's HQ.

 

 

 

 

Also, an HQ is only as good as he fits with the rest of his army.

 

For example, a chaos marine lord would be an awesome HQ in a codex SM army because he's so killy and comes with a 5+ invulnerable save. But in a chaos marine army chaos lord is pretty much the worst HQ because the sorcerers and daemon princes are just much better for the post cost + they provide stuff the army can't have otherwise, etc.

 

Likewise, Cassius is a great chaplain-type special character, but he is footslogger by default and has no jump pack or bike option. Thus, you need a land raider to make Cassius truly useful. And then you need assault terminators to take advantage of the LR transport capacity, and then you need other units to make sure your LR survives to reach the enemy and deliver Cassius + terminators into assault. And so on and so on and so on, you end up making an army around your HQ.

 

Never make the mistake of comparing 40k units or characters on a 1 on 1 basis. There are units that seem great on paper (vanguard, honor guard, techmarines etc.), but in practice aren't so good simply because they either don't fit the context of an army or it's hard to find a niche for them to fit into or there are better options for the same points, etc.

[chunky04]

I agree with Giga, I really wish they'd separated the Chapter tactics from the special characters so that people could take particular legions/Chapters without resorting to them. Wouldn't have been all that difficult to do. The other things the special characters provide is the only source of master crafted close combat weapons these days, which to me is a critical source of reliabilty for a combat character. A Captain without any rerolls to hit is too prone to airswinging IMO.

[Antonidus Novarus]

My local hobby club made it a point to test all special characters when their codices came out and found that Vulkan has 1 downfall compared to other SM characters and it isnt even a big 1, he can't take a command squad. Just whack him and 5 Vanguard vets with Thunder Hammers in a Razorback and slam into the enemy lines. Then just watch the carnage ;)

[Tomatazo]

If you ask me, I too fell into the mindset that all our new special characters are broken and totally kick ass, until i realized that despite all those cool things they can do, the way my army is set up revolves around purposely failing morale checks. So now I just play with the basic codex HQ choices and love them. I have nothing against playing with broken stuff, cuz I do it (2 hydras in my Dark elf army). I'll cry CHEESE, but I will play you anyway cuz its still fair. As for the original topic of this thread, with my 1850 list, if I see two land raiders I smile, because I KNOW i can kill them (3 meltas @ short range = 50% chance to kill) and I know they just spent 500 points on something that can only really kill a max of 4 marines a turn. Now, If they field redeemers i understand the threat they pose and will immediately kill it.

 

As BROKEN as so many things in this game CAN be, you have to understand the truth of the threat they pose, and be flexible enough to deal with them.

 

And for those of you who say that vulkan is too cheap for what he does, keep in mind that he FORCES you to play a certain way. If thats the way you wanna play anyway, then he's your man. But i wouldnt be caught dead using him because (although i use a lot of flamers and meltas) he would totally wreck my army strategy.