Our Power Level

[KiltedMarine]

I need to vent, so I hope my brethren will forgive me for a few moments’ ranting about our strengths and weaknesses vs. other Marines.

 

At the last local tourney I attended, I was the only wolf player in attendance of 50 or so players total. I had to deal with whining from players who thought that the age of our codex made us too powerful, and I had to deal with ‘Nilla marine players treating me like a poor cousin because of all their new toys. The piece de resistance was a BA player telling me he admired me for showing up to the tournament with a SW army because “it’s way too old to compete.”

 

First of all, can all the rest of our cousins please hold another Council of Nikaea, and instead of discussing psychic powers, get a coherent opinion on our codex? Cause we’re either too powerful or we’re not up to the challenge of competition, we can’t be both.

 

Let me point out how cool we are: First, we’re by far the best defensive loyalist army in the game. IMHO, for power armor overall, only Death Guard really have an edge on us in holding a position, and frankly they cheat. (T5 and FNP? ::shudder:: ) We don’t have the same horrific stat line, but we can make up for it with power fists and power weapons in numbers. I’ve seen charging raptor units die painfully and ignobly against my GHs, and a properly kitted out GH unit will roll up and smoke enemy units in shooting combat, so putting GHs on an objective means making life more difficult for your opponent automatically. Counter-charge only makes this even better for us. So how, exactly, are we not competitive?

 

Offensively, even with only BS 3, BCs kick a truly heinous level of tail. Do they get FNP and rending like Death Company? No, of course not, but they don’t need it. Death Co. don’t have numbers, while BCs do.

 

Do we get Litanies of Hate? No. Do we need them? Debatable. I’d like to have them, but I do just fine with a regular old WP. In fact, if we did get them, the combination of LoH and the 40+ attacks generated by BCs on the charge would be over-powered.

 

We get the same tanks and vehicles our cousins get, so there’s no difference there.

 

LFs are too expensive and attrit poorly; nobody argues differently. That’s one unit variant that’s weaker and in need of modification, but does it cripple us? By Russ, not at all! We just take other HS options, or find ways to work with the limitations LFs have.

 

We get the option to take a lot of PWs, PFs and plasma. That is pretty powerful. But we have to pay for all of it, and if you look at the numbers it’s analogous to our Codex cousins taking plasma cannons or lascannons in their tac squads. It balances. Stop whining, xeno scum; you’d have a different set of problems against our shinier kin, but we’re no more high-powered than they are.

 

Outside of power balance, I’m tired of hearing how unclear our ‘dex is. That’s a pile of Grox ^_^. I have a copy of the official FAQ stuck in the back of my ‘dex. It clearly elucidates how all our kit works. Am I looking forward to not needing it anymore? Oh, Emperor yes. Have we really been cheating somehow or rendered impotent because of needing one, of course not.

 

I want our cousins (loyal and traitor alike) and all our xeno opponents to take a deep breath, ;) , and get a grip. We’re balanced, we’re legal, and we’re tired of taking your :cuss.

 

Thanks, brothers. I feel much better.

[lunchb0x]

I am going to agree with you on this.

 

Ive heard the same, infact ive been laughed at by Tau armies...with 6 s10 shots a turn...but when 1, squad of blood claws ( 9man at that ) got into their lines...his army fell apart and then said my army was cheesy....

 

Well we got your back, here at the mini-fang we got your back.

[Grey Mage]

Agreed. No one seems to be able to make up their minds about us.... *sighs*. Atleast my local group doesnt complain, but then were fairly good friends. At the tournaments I still get "Wait, how do you have combiweapons on your TDA? the codex does say you can do that, is this a chaos army?".

 

Whatever.

[Ryzouken]

I so enjoy spanking the piss out of the younglings that think our wolves have grown so long in the fang as to not be able to bite anymore. They remember the days of 4th, where Skimmers were king and vehicles were big bullseyes. They think 5th didn't do enough to address those issues, and laud the ability of their Necrons' gauss or their Grav Tanks' invulnerability.

 

Then they weep and pack up on turn 4 when I've tabled them with 3 land raiders and not much else.

 

Heck, the last Necron player I went up against was phased out by my Redeemer firing twice and a single unit of Blood Claws charging (and breaking) three squads (two simultaneously, and his lord was too buried to get into CC!) 450 points took out enough of a 1750 Necron force to phase him. Kid packed up and went home crestfallen, though it's what he gets for talking trash about my army.

 

We're fine. People complain or poo-poo at us, but on Turn 5/6 when the final die is cast, all too often we're the ones standing on the piles of the dead.

 

Broken? I'd love to see that term applied to a codex a decade old. Do these people think that Codex Creep somehow works in reverse?

 

Just sore losers methinks...

[ChapniK]

ITS over 90000 had do do it

 

Damm. Ryzouken, Grey mage and Lunchb0x beat to the responce.

 

 

Space wolves is one of the most powerful armies out their. The power difference between a nilla tactical squad and Grey hunter is ridiculous. the fact that we don't have heavy weapons in our squad make them actually better. Of course we pay for this and that our weakness, if we buy to many toys we have a low amount of bodies. This of course can be countered by taking lost of blood claws but still. That is the strength of the wolves, truly a powerhouse force, but played to reckless and your force will disintegrate.

 

 

I agree with you we are the strongest marine codex for defense. Sure they have Kantor. We have counter charge and true grit. People cannot graps how amazing that is. My typical grey hunters wich i run 10 of them with a power fist, power sword, 2 plama pistols and a meltagun dish out 28 attacks when they get charged. If they pull of the leadership test of course, But imagine if i had put a wolf guard leader in there.

 

Offensive:

Cheap blood claws and a wolfguard: powerfist of death or give the claws power weapons and hear the lament of your foes. Need i mention Wolfguard terminators. After nob bikers, they are truly one if not the second strongest unit in the game. Also any of our HQ choices, except the dreadnought can wipe hole units out in one turn, by them selves. Not that doing such is a good idea, but as the battle evolves you never know.

 

weekness:

Hey tanks, we have a lack of anti tank weapons. Dont make me laugh. What competitive nilla player takes devastator anyway. Lets face it, we have so many special weapons that tanks are not that much of a problem. we have drop poding dreads, attack bikes, land speeder and that is just the cheap stuff. Speaking of drop pods need i mention t5hat we are the strongest drop pod army out there. Sure the nilla player can whip up some cool drop pod list and the have the lysander and sternguard bolter drill of death. But that is just one unit.

 

Conclusion

 

Anything nilla player can do the wolves can do it better except of course, long range combat, but that not how marines and wolves should play. Once again, we pay allot for this awesomeness. Do i want cheaper unit? Hell ya, would it be balanced? No. We are the Space Wolves, we are the decedent of The King of Wolves Leman Russ. Let the exnos, the traitors and our week sighted "allies" mock us. It will not change a thing once they are dead. While we, We celebrated our victories and they shall curse the day they underestimated us.

 

Fanboy aspect put aside we are and old codex and that were most of the misunderstanding comes from. hell you should see what i get when i pull out my Dark Eldar. Also we have the stereotypes and joke can easily be made at our expense, but its all fun and game. So take it easy its a game after all. just beat the grot lover out of them in a game and that will shut them up. If they call cheese after so much the better, they will have learned their lesson.

 

 

Last thing. Did you laugh in that BA player face after he told you that i know i would of. Our codex is old but its still good enough not to have been put in a free PDF.

[Ryzouken]

lol, Box and Mage struck simo, I ducked in an Init 4, then Chap swung at Init 1 with the power fist...

 

Now then, sweeping advance rules state...

[Arcaren]

LOL

 

Your army is mostly pure awsome. I have played vanilla marines since 3rd

edition and I have finally learned to love my army. So here some kudos

to you Space Wolf players.

 

Space Wolves tend to kick ass at an absurd rate. As aforementioned, you can out

assault just about anything in the game. Monster creatures line up and die: Greater

Daemons, Carnifexes, Wraithlords, you name it. The blood claws generally tear

squads and big munchkins a new behind. Even more so if they have a leader with a

wolf tooth necklace. Scouts hitting on 3's mmmmm sounds painful.

 

Grey hunters lets see 17 points with counter attack, true grit, and options to infinite and

beyond. 170 points for 10. Vanilla marines are 170 for 10 but lack all of these options. You

might argue that we have a heavy weapon well whoopie. If I ever spend a game shooting

across the board with my tactical squads it had better be against nids (or assulty stuff). You

can have multiple assault weapons that really dish out damage.

 

And are you guys kidding me on range. Like hell you can't shoot things to death. You get

every vehicle I have access to including your EXTERMINATOR. Devastators have been

somewhat ineffective since their inception. Your spending far too many points on secondary

marines with bolters. A 5 man vanilla marine dev squad with two lascannons is 150 points.

Or you can choose a 165 point Predator with 2 las and 1 twin linked las. As marines

we tend to need to assault enemy tanks to really hurt them. Honestly when is the last time your

dev squad or tank flanked the side of a leman russ to get side armor. As far as I have seen we

marines get rid of tanks by moving up to them (hopefully in rhinos and such) and assaulting them.

By drop pod, bikes, outflanking, deep striking and shooting them in the rear or assaulting.

 

The army may be old but it was well designed. Only by being excessively recklessness have I seen a

Space Wolf Army destroy itself. Every time an opponent laughs at you just wait a couple turns and then

enjoy yourself. To this day Space Wolves have had one of the best codexes GW ever designed.

[Megalodon]

The army may be old but it was well designed. Only by being excessively recklessness have I seen a Space Wolf Army destroy itself. Every time an opponent laughs at you just wait a couple turns and then enjoy yourself. To this day Space Wolves have had one of the best codexes GW ever designed.

I concur wholeheartedly.

[Kadaeux]

I can see where you SW brothers are coming from. I've seen it myself and never understood all the SW hate. "OP, Too Old, Cheesy, uncompetitive"

 

You're an army, you have a codex.

 

Other players should put up or shut up.

 

With my armies I tend to have a win/loss of about 50% against the SW (actually about 20% draw) its a fun army to play against, you never know what tricks the old wolf you're up against has up his sleeves.

[Spacefrisian]

Just wondering if some Dark Eldar players were around that tourney. Their codex is just as old as our codex. (and i thought the Necrons and Witch/deamon hunters codexes were also made during 3rd edition)

[Grey Mage]

Grey hunters lets see 17 points with counter attack, true grit, and options to infinite and

beyond. 170 points for 10. Vanilla marines are 170 for 10 but lack all of these options. You

might argue that we have a heavy weapon well whoopie. If I ever spend a game shooting

across the board with my tactical squads it had better be against nids (or assulty stuff). You

can have multiple assault weapons that really dish out damage.

Thing is... you either use True Grit OR Counter attack, never both on a single model, ever. You cant counter-attack while true gritting bolter, so basicly its just two attacks all the time, with the option to pay more and have ranged, or not and get three attacks on the charge/countercharge. We also get keen senses, wich comes up about 1/5 games, tops.

 

Tac Squads get free weapon options, combat tactics, and can combat squad. This means they are more balanced, and cant shoot+Assault, or rapid fire etc... they have tactical options GHs dont. They also get Ld 9, wich in 5th edition is very important.

 

Grey Hunters cost more when equiped Identically.

 

10 Marines, including Seargent, with a Meltagun and Missile Launcher, the sarg has a power weapon and bolt pistol- 190pts.

9 Grey Hunters+ Wolf Gaurd, with a meltagun and powerfist, the Wolf Gaurd has powerweapon and bolt pistol- 219pts.

 

This ration stands no matter what configuration you try and put them in. I think point for point it evens out pretty well. Grey Hunters are worth their points, not much more, not much less.

 

If it werent for the Iron Priest and the LRE Id say our codex doesnt even need an update, just people to come to their senses.

[Hfran Morkai]

I think our codex is just about right. We have some awesome boons but some drawbacks and it takes a good player to create a good list. Hence why I currently suck at playing wolves!

[dragon950]

Where we go to play big warhammer games the people there don't care about what rules were using, only about how well you roll. I roll horrible most games on wounding so I'm not always the best. The only problem that I might have with shop and the people there is that they might jump onto the wolves wagon because they are new. But as far as squads were are undermanned for heavy weapons and that has cost me some games against shooty built armies.

[Torin]

Good day brothers,

 

I have been playing SW for since 2nd ed and i have face lots of player of all races n xenos. I just couldnt be bothered with what people have to say or complaint about. I think all army are unique in its own way.. its just the way you play it. If you are going to play againts someone you think is going to complain about our SW just tell him to find another player to play with. So far i have had lots of fun games vs eldar, orks, IG, chaos and its all been fun. Most people would say playing againts 2 flying tzeench Dp with wind of chaos and warptime is OP. I think so too... ;). But they should take it as a challenge not nag about it. Its simple you win is great.. you loose.. you will learn to improve & never say you cant.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

I think that C:SW takes time to master and many 'competitive' players just don't have the patience.

 

Here, we love the fluff and have done our time on the table to develop armies that suit our individual styles of play - and C:SW allows such variation.

 

I love big infantry forces without WGPLs, a bit of heavy support, land speeders etc, whilst others can max out on a mechanised force or go for a force for lots of WG - horses (or wolves) for courses!

 

Regards,

[Vassakov]

SW always have been a highly competitive army, especially when played well. However, because of our multiple styles it makes us unpredictable and therefore highly effective.

 

Furthermore, I disagree that it is mostly the list that makes us strong - it's the players. Think about it, for the better part of 10 years beyond a brief, limited release in the EoT campaign we've had the most limited support of any army bar perhaps DE. The result - the only people who play SW want to play them because of the fluff and the modelling opportunities. They aren't flavour of the month, aren't the Codex Creep of the the moment and have almost no knowledge amongst the 12-14 demographic compared to say, SM, CSM or Orks. So, I'd wager we have one of the highest ratios of "older" gamers to overall players. We know our list, it's idiosyncrasies, it's strengths and weaknesses. So when they play us, they are more often than not facing someone with some skill, and that's why we win.

[clanfield]

i agree with you there vassakov we are the hard core elite and we alwats have been iv seen thease acustaions many many wonderous times before

i use to have this great t shirt that sums this up-mess with the best die like the rest

[Bjorn the Fell-Handed]

SW always have been a highly competitive army, especially when played well. However, because of our multiple styles it makes us unpredictable and therefore highly effective.

 

Furthermore, I disagree that it is mostly the list that makes us strong - it's the players. Think about it, for the better part of 10 years beyond a brief, limited release in the EoT campaign we've had the most limited support of any army bar perhaps DE. The result - the only people who play SW want to play them because of the fluff and the modelling opportunities. They aren't flavour of the month, aren't the Codex Creep of the the moment and have almost no knowledge amongst the 12-14 demographic compared to say, SM, CSM or Orks. So, I'd wager we have one of the highest ratios of "older" gamers to overall players. We know our list, it's idiosyncrasies, it's strengths and weaknesses. So when they play us, they are more often than not facing someone with some skill, and that's why we win.

QFT

 

I do think that we do get a certain level fo prejudice, true. I have had calls of cheese and beard when my WG re-roll armours :( And when my powerfists get better without charging :P

Ultimately, it doesnt matter what everyone else thinks about how weak or OP your dex is. You prove to them that in the world of the Wolves, the Warrior plays the list, not the list plays the warrior.

 

Unlike alot of newer codices.

[Torin]

You prove to them that in the world of the Wolves, the Warrior plays the list, not the list plays the warrior.

 

Unlike alot of newer codices.

 

I second what you say Bjorn is the player that makes the difference not the list. :geek:

[Kadaeux]

You prove to them that in the world of the Wolves, the Warrior plays the list, not the list plays the warrior.

 

Unlike alot of newer codices.

 

I second what you say Bjorn is the player that makes the difference not the list. :geek:

 

I disagree.

 

Player, List.... they are both mere puppets to the Dice Gods whims.

[Torin]

You prove to them that in the world of the Wolves, the Warrior plays the list, not the list plays the warrior.

 

Unlike alot of newer codices.

 

I second what you say Bjorn is the player that makes the difference not the list. ^_^

 

I disagree.

 

Player, List.... they are both mere puppets to the Dice Gods whims.

 

well i cant disagree with that. That for sure.. but in general i would still say its the player.. that makes the different. the dice is a 50/50 odd thing to me. :cuss

[Torin]

You prove to them that in the world of the Wolves, the Warrior plays the list, not the list plays the warrior.

 

Unlike alot of newer codices.

 

I second what you say Bjorn is the player that makes the difference not the list. ^_^

 

I disagree.

 

Player, List.... they are both mere puppets to the Dice Gods whims.

 

well i cant disagree with that. That for sure.. but in general i would still say its the player.. that makes the different. the dice is a 50/50 odd thing to me. :cuss

[WG Vrox]

well i cant disagree with that. That for sure.. but in general i would still say its the player.. that makes the different. the dice is a 50/50 odd thing to me.

 

If I could count on average rolls, I would be very happy, but for me I tend to roll high when needing low and low when needing high. It's a curse thus my tag line.

 

WG Vrox.

[Torin]

well we have our up n down from time to time. I get those kinda rolls to. Beside dont bother counting the odd WG Vrox, its just a waste of time. :unsure: Sorry for the double post.

 

cheers.

[GunnerRed]

I've been quite lucky when ive played people with my SW ive never had people take the mick out of them or moan that they are too powerful, mind i dont get to play that often.